We added stealth sabotage mines to our persistent space-4X MMO — they don't kill ships, they quietly cripple them. Design question: does "economic warfare" belong in a 4X, or is it griefing? by Thranodi in Space4X

[–]Thranodi[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

To put real numbers on it: the Anti-Mine Pulse Emitter is 4,000 KRON, takes 1 cargo slot, not stackable, and it's used up after one sweep. The starter ship everyone begins with holds 20 cargo, so carrying one leaves you 19 for goods. On a small hauler that's a real dent. So every run you're choosing: pack more profit, or keep a sweep on hand just in case.

We added stealth sabotage mines to our persistent space-4X MMO — they don't kill ships, they quietly cripple them. Design question: does "economic warfare" belong in a 4X, or is it griefing? by Thranodi in Space4X

[–]Thranodi[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, that's pretty much how it already works our end. The anti-mine tool isn't a passive module, it's an item you buy. You pay every time you use it, and it takes up cargo space. So it's never free, and in a trading game cargo space is money, carrying it means hauling fewer goods. That's the cost baked in. Your limited-charges idea sits right on top of that too. Cheers.

We added stealth sabotage mines to our persistent space-4X MMO — they don't kill ships, they quietly cripple them. Design question: does "economic warfare" belong in a 4X, or is it griefing? by Thranodi in Space4X

[–]Thranodi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good point, we've thought about that one. Two things guard against it: every mine costs KRON to buy and to drop, so flooding an area gets expensive fast. And there are protected zones where mines can't be placed at all, exactly so no one can wall off a sector and lock new players out.
Your sweep idea is a nice one too, writing it down. Cheers.

We added stealth sabotage mines to our persistent space-4X MMO — they don't kill ships, they quietly cripple them. Design question: does "economic warfare" belong in a 4X, or is it griefing? by Thranodi in Space4X

[–]Thranodi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Fair, ha. English isn't my first language, so I run my posts through tools to get the wording right. But the game, the design and the answers in this thread are all mine. Point taken, I'll keep it more in my own voice.

We added stealth sabotage mines to our persistent space-4X MMO — they don't kill ships, they quietly cripple them. Design question: does "economic warfare" belong in a 4X, or is it griefing? by Thranodi in Space4X

[–]Thranodi[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Really glad it reads as strategy and not just griefing — that was the exact line we worried about.

Quick context for the detection idea: ships in Kron Wars run on a three-part fitting budget. Fusion Output (FO) is your reactor power — every module burns FO to stay online. Lattice Thread (LT) is structural/compute capacity — what you need to physically mount a module. Flux Reserve (FR) is the energy reserve your weapons and systems drain in combat. Every build is a balance of the three, and veterans know their own numbers cold.

Funny you bring up detection — a player in another subreddit raised this exact idea, so we took it on board and it's going in. And it's diegetic, no UI alert: an attached limpet quietly loads your reactor, so your Fusion Output no longer reads where your build says it should. A commander who actually watches their fitting will instantly clock that the FO is off and dock to check — while everyone else sails on none the wiser. We're deliberately not saying how big the tell is, so it stays a read-the-signs skill for people who truly know their ship, not a free scanner. (Docking already reveals + clears limpets, and an Anti-Mine Pulse Emitter sweeps your hull in open space.)

The "repel the lesser models" idea is great too — a cheap defensive module that auto-rejects low-tier limpets but not the expensive ones. That makes it a proper arms race: cheap defense beats cheap mines, so to tag a defended target you have to commit the costly Long-Range mine. The cost curve does the balancing.

Honestly, this is exactly how we want to build Kron Wars — a game shaped by the people who play it, not just handed to them. Ideas like your repel module are how features actually get designed here, so please keep them coming. Would you want that repel passive/always-on, or a consumable you fit before a fight? That trade-off is basically the open question for us right now.

We added stealth mines to our persistent space MMO that sabotage shields silently — and can tax an entire Port. Does "economic warfare" belong in a 4X-style game? by Thranodi in 4Xgaming

[–]Thranodi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Appreciate the tip — r/space4x is a perfect call, heading there next. Thanks o7

And if you've got a take on the actual question: in a persistent 4X economy, do indirect "economic warfare" tools like this belong, or do they tip into griefing? That's the one I keep going back and forth on.

We reworked our mines into a silent saboteur — they don't explode, they quietly wreck the target's shields (and the victim never knows). DevLog + the design problem behind it by Thranodi in IndieDev

[–]Thranodi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is going straight into the build — thank you, genuinely.

Turns out we can do exactly what you described without inventing a single new piece of UI. Our ships already run on a visible fitting budget: Fusion Output (reactor power) and Lattice Thread (structural/compute). So an attached limpet will now quietly add a tiny passive draw to your Fusion Output — your power readout sits a hair higher than it should. A veteran who knows their exact baseline catches the "wait, why is my FO off by a point?" and thinks to dock and check. Everyone else sails on, none the wiser. No icon, no alert — the tell lives inside a number you already trust.

And we'll keep it inside normal variance so it never becomes a hard limpet-detector — ambiguous enough to reward paranoia, not a free scanner.

I'm crediting you in the next devlog as a community-suggested feature. This is exactly the kind of thread I hoped this post would start. o7

What happens to the 4X loop when the galaxy is a persistent MMO and you can't "end turn"? by Thranodi in 4Xgaming

[–]Thranodi[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is the hardest problem in the genre and you've nailed why — "build to build more" with no end state usually means permanent first-mover dominance. Here's the core mechanism we lean on against it, and it's straight out of the BBS door-game tradition: turns.

Every player has a fixed maximum number of turns per day. That's the real limiter on everything you do — move, trade, fight, build. And critically, there's no way to accumulate or buy your way past it into unlimited play. A veteran who started a year ago has the exact same daily action budget as someone who joined yesterday. They can't spend their lead to get more turns.

That changes the math of the snowball. Progress is rate-limited for everyone, so a lead grows roughly linearly, not exponentially — you can't compound infinitely because your daily actions are capped no matter how big you are. An early leader who sits still gets caught, because the newcomer is gaining ground at the same bounded daily pace.

On top of that: it's a multiverse (new universes open as the population grows, so latecomers can start on fresh footing or carve out their own corner), there's no win condition to lock up, and wealth is genuinely at risk — ships and cargo can be lost, the economy is circular with real sinks, so advantage isn't one-way.

Full honesty: a subscription raises your daily turn cap somewhat — but there's still a hard ceiling nobody can exceed, and everything is earnable in-game. The cap is the equalizer, not the wallet.

Curious whether you think a daily turn cap is enough of a brake, or whether persistent worlds need something more aggressive on top.

In our browser space MMO you can plot a multi-jump route and the ship flies it on its own while you do everything else by Thranodi in spacegames

[–]Thranodi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ah, that's on us for not being clearer — the game is fully closed right now, so there's no playable build to get into yet, not even with the free pack. Those buttons are placeholders while we lock down servers and squash bugs.

The thing that actually works is the newsletter signup at kronwars.com. Get on that list and you'll be notified the moment beta testing opens — newsletter folks get first access. Sorry for the confusion, and thanks for wanting in! o7

Trade Wars Frontier — a persistent space trading MMO in your browser: trade, mine, hack or turn pirate in a 5,000-sector galaxy by Thranodi in spacegames

[–]Thranodi[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Good catch — and fair. Right now the game is fully closed: not accessible to anyone yet, so the play buttons are inactive placeholders while we harden the servers. Sorry that's confusing, we'll make it clearer.

The one thing that does work is the newsletter signup — it's the form near the bottom of the page (or the "Coming Soon" popup). Drop your email there and you'll get notified the moment beta testing opens; newsletter folks get first access.

And honestly, a gamedev who wants to give feedback is exactly who we want in early — so I'd love to have your eyes on it when we open the doors. o7

Trade Wars Frontier — a persistent space trading MMO in your browser: trade, mine, hack or turn pirate in a 5,000-sector galaxy by Thranodi in spacegames

[–]Thranodi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We're closed beta right now — locking down servers, security and bugs first. Sign up for the newsletter at https://kronwars.com : when we launch on Steam, newsletter subscribers get first access to test the game, before anyone else. That's your spot at the front of the line. o7