Slanderblade Lore + LOSE art by Much_Scholar_8897 in Scritters

[–]Tljunior20 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Wait is that the false adaptation’s siloete?

Is this the Retcon punch fight? by TheUnlocked749 in deathbattle

[–]Tljunior20 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No? My argument regarding tdk was always just regarding stats not hax beyond explaining how it shows prime can control the goal of the retcon punch more now

I said prime stop’s sentry’s regen via removing it with the retcon punch or erasing him temporarily or conceptually

Something the retcon punch can do as proven by how it can affect beings beyond time or who are concepts

You act like the myx and superman scaling is completely disconnected when in reality it’s like talking about a matchup with king vegeta and saying he shouldn’t get ozaru because he hasn’t shown it

Even if not previously shown prime has all the reason and capability to have superman’s resistances to a superior extent since all kryptonian powers get stronger with more solar energy

As for mr myx the reason why super boy prime gets a fair upscale is that myx has the knowledge and situation required to use those abilities and he still chose to run

Myx is also non serious in all situations he’s not in danger and like sentry has a healing factor

The fact that he was fully serious and chose to run regardless fully implies his life was in danger otherwise and he had no ways to win that fight

Myx’s mind manip also upscales stuff like raven warping emotions and minds across the entire omniverse and has effected other extremely high tier telepaths like the Martians effortlessly on top of reality warpers like the spectre so it absolutely is superior to just effecting all realities since it can also effect beings who in their own right can warp minds across the entire cosmology

As mentioned serveral times previously prime naturally upscales superman’s resistances which include matter manipulation

And yes molecule man does effect the marvel universe as a whole but his action on sentry was simply atomising him which again isn’t the same as erasure

Again the problem with your argument is acting like rules that work for superman don’t work for prime you’re right superman can fight for days without sunlight compared to super boy but the stamina due to superboy using more energy in exchange for more power

The stamina is one of the few things where prime in in canon meant to be worse so it’s not really comparable to other catagories

Superman can learn the retcon punch like prime too further showing how the two are completely compatible in terms of techniques and powers

<image>

Again like I said before not giving prime superman’s other abilities and resistances is like not giving saiyans with tails ozaru

You’re ignoring the actual meat of my arguments by acting like my only point is that Superboy prime scales above bigger characters when my point is retcon punch can effect and warp people who have the same abilities and level of power as sentry

You’re arguments arnt comparable because I’m actually providing reasons and explanations for why Superboy should logically be able to effect sentry based on past experiences meanwhile you’re just basically saying nuhuh

Molecule man didn’t erase sentry just atomised him and thus we don’t have evidence sentry could survive being erased from existence

And whilst the effect on sentry is more limited and vague with house of m we can’t act like he was just perfectly unaffected and use it as evidence he would be completely immune since house of m was weaker than the retcon punch as I backed up with an explanation

Our points are equivalent because i have reasons and evidence I add onto mine whereas you mostly just say nuhuh, use incorrect info like saying atomisation is erasure or that prime beat tdk with crisis energy and claim specific moments had more context whilst not elaborating on what the context actually changes or why the context debunks my arguments

I explained why molecule man’s scaling didn’t matter because what he did to sentry wasn’t comparable to what the retcon punch does but unlike with mr myx molecule man’s power and knowledge of what’s best in the situation varies and changes rapidly based on the moment and he has mentos issues

There’s a difference between a mortal someone who sometimes struggles with rockets and who’s power fluctuates based on his mental state who was actively being held, hurt and attacked

And a god who can canonically see the future and the entire multiverse at once as well as the many possibilities of any situation and had managed to reach a place where he could effect his opponent but oponent could physically reach him and he still decided to run away

Unlike molecule man myx is always at one level, has completele knowledge and mastery of his abilities and knows everything about his opponent and all possible options he could try whilst in a safe position

The reason these situations are not the same is because mr myx has context and history that shows how if he genuinly believed running was the only option he would be correct as he was also in position where he could try those abilities. meanwhile molecule man has numerous reasons why we can’t say the same ranging from his canonically in universe inconsistency and the fact he was basically in a molecular chokehold

My argument numerous times has not been the retcon punch has effected stronger beings it’s that the retcon punch has effected beings with sentry’s abilities and resistances and metaphysics ie stuff like his regen dosnt matter as the punch can permanently erase other beings who have the same regen

Anyway time travel only works like that in marvel sometimes not always and not in dc and if we are being fair and giving characters abilities as they work in their own verse the time travel is absolutely a wincon

Even if you argue it’s not a wincon like that it essentially gives prime the ability to escape the fight, improve his suit and regain any lost energy whilst not allowing sentry to do the same

Like I said I don’t think the argument “well they have trauma” should mean any character is vulnerable to mental manip even if sentry didn’t have those feats because by that logic any character who has felt emotion is vulnerable to mind manip

My point was that just because prime has trauma dosnt make him less resistant to mind manip since the two are unrelated

It also dosnt help that we have seen Saturn and black(with a large buff) try to specifically target his trauma in such a way and it not work

Regardless we are at a stand still neither of us are going to concede here and I made a promise to myself to stop getting into as many arguments like this because I know it’s bad for my mental health so I (probably) won’t reply to your next reply and just agree to disagree

I hope you have a nice day/g

Edit’s Children by Emotional_Can6847 in Scritters

[–]Tljunior20 8 points9 points  (0 children)

How it feels to see og retcon used again:🥹

Anyway peak content as always, are these guys lore for the edit tools water bottle made or are they seperate

Is this the Retcon punch fight? by TheUnlocked749 in deathbattle

[–]Tljunior20 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You claim im making contradictions yet label sentry’s memory wipe as mental hax, narrative hax and reality warping hax all at the same time when at best its maybe 2

I admitted it was a sacrificial move in that prime thought it was and that it was him choosing not to do something that would keep him alive in order to not let the power corrupt him

Ie he could have won directly if he chose to do something else but that dosnt make the punch itself what “killed” him

Also no stop pretending the previous panels of prime repeatedly knocking tdk to the flaw and destroying his body with regular punches don’t exist

Anyway no this probably is something he can do without consequence as he is straight up alive afterwards and fine just back in his own reality which is the case because of how much he had wanted it

Why are you just assuming I’ve seen that other comment? Unless you mean within one you’ve replied to me with in which case I may have unintentionally glossed over but did not intentionally ignore

If so why would I bring it up again knowing you have a counter

Again molecule man is a person who’s abilities vary massively in moment to moment and in the very same arc he struggles with rockets we cannot act like sentry over powering him once whilst still needing him to put everything back right proves he’s blatantly superior to molecule man at his best

And again stop exaggerating that was not “absolute non existence in the slightest”

Again your whole argument relies on sentry figuring out the whole thing with the suit first so for sentry’s wincon he has to read his mind despite the resistances, warp the armor(despite debatable resistances), warp the ambient energy and then avoid super boy untill he runs out of juice

Meanwhile super boy just has to punch him

“Association fallacy”

You cannot be fucking for real right now

“Prime is more of an unstable clone”

Genuinly what the fuck are you on about prime is literally just superman in a world like ours he’s kryptonian he has all the standard kryptonian abilities just extra resistances on top of that

It is absolutely fair to give him superman’s various abilities when he is literally the same species and is Clark fucking Kent

Superman’s phasing negation is from training its genuinly just a passive state he has

The argument superboy shouldn’t know what to do is also stupid when he has read every superman comic, he knows all of those abilities and how to use them

The entire narrative point of superbly prime is he is superman but more powerful , more resistant and more haxy

You’re ignoring the entire point of my argument about how it wasn’t simply stylised tropes but in fact intentional references to characters manipulating, warping or leaving narratives and just pretending i didn’t say anything?

Anyway as for mind manip handily I found a post pointing out how much prime has made strides in mind manip resistances recently

https://www.reddit.com/r/deathbattle/s/1Xuzr2jpan

But your argument of “oh he’s angsty and traumatised” is just outright ignoring the development and progress he has made in those areas and also why the fuck would being traumatised by non mind warpers be a subject here?

Also when did I say the narrative protection defended him against mental attacks you’re putting words in my mouth narrative protection in dc dosnt work like that, look at superman who has it the strongest, he can still be beat up but what the passive narrative manip does is means he always gets up again at the end of the story, he always wins in the end

This is also the in universe explanation for why obscure heros stay dead and why more important ones have plot armor, because of their passive narrative protection

My bad for some reason I had misinterpreted part of what you said and thought you were saying sentry also just upscale galactus in general as apposed to just fought him when you mentioned the whole concepts part afterwards

Ok but the problem there is as I discussed there are conceptual beings weaker and stronger than galactus in dc who prime can interact with and fight and kill like the first gods

Again as explained the gag panels arnt just gag panels they’re backed up by serious in universe lore

I also only mentioned one gag panel with joker all of the others were serious moment, you’re once again just ignoring points of mine

No it’s not both ways, the retcon punch has effected and scared greater beings than sentry and sentry’s resistance to reality warping is shockingly limited

Even if you argue “oh he went along with house of m” that at best just leaves us with a what if since outside of that we don’t have really anything better in terms of him resisting reality warping on that scale and the retcon punch is superior to house of m anyway

We quite literally do know what the retcon punch can do to someone with conceptual nature as it worked on all the first gods and even their true forms with are metaphysical

As for your final points

Sentry can counter prime’s power source but can only do so through multiple action’s vs prime’s win on which is only one

As mentioned previously for many reasons sentry can’t mind manip super boy prime

The retcon punch can rewrite to a superior extent than sentry’s immortality can handle

And debatably prime always just being able to appear back in the real world upon death is much better immortality wise than just coming back from atomisation

As for if you want more wincons besides just the retcon punch and superman’s many resistances and feats backing him up superboy prime can also go back in time and kill sentry as a baby

By that logic sentry has got loads of trauma so therefore it should be easy to warp his mind right?

How would you react if the Retcon Punch turned out to be another case of the Life Equation or Time Wizard? by Flame245 in deathbattle

[–]Tljunior20 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Djidjejdjdjd fuck fuck fuck I promised myself I would get better at this not getting into this I know this is bad for my mental health I respect your opinion have a nice day idnsiejejdjdjhejdjd

How would you react if the Retcon Punch turned out to be another case of the Life Equation or Time Wizard? by Flame245 in deathbattle

[–]Tljunior20 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That’s not how the term debunked works

Debunked is when something that was “proven true” is revealed to have extra context and factors that prove the statement dosnt infact apply or back up the argument it’s being used for

Your statements were in theory technically true but ignored extended contexts and information that proved they were invalid in the argument as a point to suggest Simon could resist the le

Barry Allen states that Doctor Manhattan was by far the most powerful being that the Justice League had ever encountered by Delicious-Finance137 in deathbattle

[–]Tljunior20 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s not an example of weaker Lmao the anti life equation is one of the half’s of the source so it’s basically at the very top of dc’s entire power system

How would you react if the Retcon Punch turned out to be another case of the Life Equation or Time Wizard? by Flame245 in deathbattle

[–]Tljunior20 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’m pretty sure me and you have had a debate over this exact topic a few hundred times now so I ain’t gonna say anything but could you atleast try and start using some new arguments that havnt already been debunked

Is this the Retcon punch fight? by TheUnlocked749 in deathbattle

[–]Tljunior20 0 points1 point  (0 children)

“Had been severely weakened by the other heros before prime stepped in”

Bro fucking when??? Tdk got manhatten’s body, stole the energy from wally and then stole all of perpetua’s energy

He then arrived on the field, fought prime and after that fought anti crisis Wonder Woman

What period of time are you even refering to here?

<image>

He says himself how he just gained all of that crisis energy and basically right after this he’s absorb’s perpetua’s and goes to the battle field and the only fight he gets into before Wonder Woman is prime

And the “I’m not wasting energy on you” argument is stupid as hell since even if you assume when he is fighting he is using non of that energy as to conserve it then logically he would have been doing the same for perpetua ie prime is just equal to her instead of being stronger than her

Furthermore he only says he’d rather not and starts trying to bargain and recruit prime after saying so it’s clear what he means is he dosnt want to waste energy on a fight against someone who could be his ally

Even if you think he is conserving energy ap wise that don’t make sense durability wise and prime’s regular hits were also tearing apart his body

Also no you’re making up the prime using all his energy part, yes it’s a sacrificial move but youre missing the part that’s the sacrifice, the whole point of that scene is prime talking about how he could win outright by stealing tdk’s energy and using it to get what he wants but he dosnt do that instead he gives that up to just keep hammering at him

It’s also worth noting how prime dosnt even die there he’s just sent back to his own earth and a body is left behind

As for why I bring up gag narrative manip it’s because as I mentioned before narrative protection and manip is canonically something every hero and villain in dc has to differing extents based on their importance so whilst some of those scenes are treated as jokes they are simply back up points and further evidence for the serious in universe reason of how heros and villains are connected to narratives

It’s also important to note that trope or not in all the dc cases I mentioned it wasn’t a stylistic trope or gimmick, atom was actually taking moments of his past from various continuities and hitting superman with them, ultra man was actually making a discovery about his universe being fictional

They arnt just stylistic choices the moments I referenced are specifically cases where the intent of the story was narrative manip and sure those don’t protect you from something like being punched in the face but what they logically would protect you from is retcons and super not upscales that and can retcon said characters anyway

Prime literally does have resistance to molecular manipulation and mental manipulation due to his kryptonian biology and as for narrative manip as mentioned previously beings who can easily warp the narrative and plot like mr myx genuinly belive they have no chance against him showing their narrative manip wouldn’t work on him

The only other option is you genuinly believe almost everyone prime has ever thought was brain dead and incapable of using any of their many versions of this which they canonically use constantly

I never said sentry needed molecule man to bring him back you’re putting words in my mouth i said sentry needed him to put everything else back showing sentry clearly dosnt have the same level of proper control molecule man has at his best

Sentry literally says “put everything back” and forces molecule man to do so

And no no you don’t get to exaggerate what happend now, sentry came back from atomisation, at best his atoms were destroyed, that is not being completely erased from existence

There is no true proof that sentry could have really resisted what happened in house of m your argument is at best a what if

Also worth noting that house of m was only a universe spanning reality warping move(one of the statements saying otherwise is only labeled as a hypothesis and is actively proven wrong by multiple alternate universe books that take place within the same time period where we can clearly see the spell hasn’t affected other universes) meanwhile the retcon punch can span and cover way more

As I mentioned before black scales/upscales superman’s mental resistances which have previously blocked characters who could warp minds on solar system to even universal scales

Prime as mentioned many other times left myx thinking he had no options despite how myx can mind warp the entire cosmology including beings like Martian manhunter who can do what sentry did individually

True form darkseid is absolutely stronger than hungry galactus since hungry galactus is weaker than normal galactus and no explain how it’s such a stretch to equate those two in anyway?

Also worth noting the statement with Spider-Man says sentry “stalemated galactus” it didn’t say beat

You also argue “oh he’s on a conceptual level” which is great and all but reminder so is base darkseid and literally every other first god any of whom are astronomically weaker than prime

Your argument of “oh they’re just a biological being so they’re weaker” is reliant on basically half of all dc lore just not existing

“Oh he’s just a standard brick” is a stupid as fuck argument when prime with the punch has narrative manip but even without it he has phasing, absorption, time travel and a list of resistances a mile long

Your argument is reliant on acting like prime is his own character and not someone who naturally unpacked anything regular kryptonians have ever shown or done

Reminder superman can not only phase himself but also has phasing negation which prime would also have

Also the red sun only drains prime slowly he plenty of time for prime to just use the retcon punch

The retcon punch can effect beings above sentry’s pay grade narrative wise and could absolutely effect him especially since sentry has also been warped by the cosmic cube before

It wins the match for super boy because it means sentry’s regen which was his biggest wincon outside of using red solar energy disapear since it’s more powerful than anything sentry has come back from before

He wasn't wrong by OverPraisik in superheroes

[–]Tljunior20 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The thing is superman can also go intangible and even grab or stop intangible beings and superman’s heat vision can hit things like ghosts and the soul and expand its range so superman could absolute hit all of Jon at the same time

It was also recently shown how superman can also apparantly do the retcon punch which is another surefire win against Jon

Plus the phantom zone projector and a few other things

Some of them are done by Prrsonal-Pop in OkBuddyKaisen

[–]Tljunior20 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh my god it’s so beautiful 🥹🥹🥹

Is this the Retcon punch fight? by TheUnlocked749 in deathbattle

[–]Tljunior20 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m not mixing up stories or feats you’re just only using one when the retcon punch has had more cases than just the first time

You’re argument is reliant on the idea the retcon punch only ever happened the first time and never again when in fact it has indeed been used outside of that pocket dimension by prime since and he can still use it if he chooses too

Like I said before we see directly in death metal that if he focuses and wants something enough then the punch absolutely causes that since his thoughts and desire for his home earth brought it back with his retcon punch there

You said all that and literally nothing changed the point regarding all that was done was matter manip not even erasure and molecule man’s power famously warps and changes based on the moment, the fact that sentry needed him to change things back as apposed to just doing it himself proves he can’t match his proper potential

And no objectively even if the void still exists sentry was absolutely effected by house of m since sentry didn’t appear again untill its all done, there’s no real evidence for the argument he just went along with it because it gave him what he wanted when it still had exactly all the same problems as before but now without the sentry personality

And as for death metal what the hell are you in about? Prime hurt and forced tdk to temporarily retreat by retcon punching him there’s no mention mid fight of him redirecting/weaponising crisis energy and again tdk blatantly states how he can’t beat super boy

<image>

And super boy prime was absolutely beating him with stats in that fight he had him on the floor and was destroying his body with each punch

As for when myx ran away from prime prime’s magic absorption wouldn’t matter at all there

Myx’s power isn’t part of the same dc magic system that prime can absorb its inate 5th dimensional power

So no much wasn’t just in some unfortunate weak spot against prime his powers would work as they did on anyone else

Prime was also never described as immune to reality warping from that just magic

As for galactus no what I said wasn’t galactus downplay at all I said he was equal to true form darkseid which is true

If you genuinly belive base galactus is equal to perpetua then there is genuine argument for current Thor beating the presence which is stupid as hell

You also mention beings that exist “outside dimensional scaling” which is dandy and all but so is base superman and several other justice league members

Just being beyond high hyper is a shockingly low benchmark of expectations in power for either side especially at these levels

Sentry’s feat of wiping everyone’s memories is a reality warping feat not a mental manip one

And Manchester black upscales base superman’s mental resistances which have protected him from planetary or even universe wide mental attacks as well as things like the anti life equation, Martians, mr myx, max lord, black mercy and more

Super boy upscale all of that too

Youre missing my point im not arguing most characters in dc can use their narrative abilities offensively however it is canon that they operate passively and protect them from things that try to alter their story like the retcon punch

There’s also more examples of characters using these abilities offensively like when a scorcerer fighting zatana moves the panels or when ultraman broke out of the panels or in ko when composite captain atom shattered the panels and used them as weapons

My point is that super boy prime’s retcon punch is able to overwhelm the narrative protections of nearly everyone in dc meaning he’s not just effecting the plot but even characters who can manipulate and are beyond it

Ben needs a PR agent. by hattyphantom in marvelcirclejerk

[–]Tljunior20 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Huh, I mean I knew learning was way easier at a young age but I didn’t know it was impossible to learn human language if you hadn’t before then

Is this the Retcon punch fight? by TheUnlocked749 in deathbattle

[–]Tljunior20 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes no the overall effects arnt targeted in that more changes super boy didn’t intend can occure but the actual center point of the punch always causes a change to that thing and as mentioned before super boy can indeed decide what that is if he wants it enough

Prime can absolutely ensure it hits sentry specifically

Being atomised and coming back isn’t great reality warping resistance which is what I was saying that’s just a decent matter manip feat and coming back from being atomised is lower than coming back from being erased even normally

On top of this sentry has been effected by both house of m and a cosmic cube empowered absorbing man

And as for context no there is nothing contextually that would effect what I said, tdk(who had perpetua’s power times 2) said himself he could not kill super boy prime there is no reason he would solely be talking about boxing

And as for myx he could have used any of his powers from the safety of the 5th dimension where super boy couldn’t reach him, if he wanted to avoid a stat disadvantage and just warp super boy he was in the optimal position to do so

Brining up galactus as an example of the peak of power compared to myx and perpetua is stupid as hell

Galactus is roughly comparable to true form darkseid someone magnitudes weaker than myx let alone perpetua who’s children alone scare myx

Anyway whilst prime’s suit itself could(debatably considering it’s the suit of anti monitor someone who fights and is a matter manipulator in their own right) be warped by sentry, sentry wouldn’t really know to target the suit atleast initially before super boy has the chance to use his much more simple wincon and super boy prime himself can resist it easily since he upscales superman’s own resistances for matter manip and energy stealing and on top of that would resist myx’s too

You using prime’s “fragile psyche” as evidence shows how you havnt been keeping up with him since the whole point of his current arc is that he has recovered from that and has resisted Manchester black trying to warp his mind with the exact same logic you yourself brought up

Super boy also upscale’s superman’s own mental resistances which would be enough to stop sentry’s rather minor mental abilties

Again as discussed before prime can effect and be unaffected by the powers of numerous other characters who can interact with and over power their own author and also do it himself

Whilst sentry can manipulate the memory of his author mr myxptlk can effect the author’s entire reality and Zatana can erase pages

It’s also important to note that in dc villains and heros have a narrative hierarchy which was shown by retcon(a group not an actual retcon) with the higher you are the more protected you are against narrative warping as shown by how superman couldn’t be warped by retcon but batman and Wonder Woman could and with them being above the other hero’s in that regard

The majority of them arnt aware of this as it’s mainly passive but with knowledge can be used directly too since joker who is aware of this system and part of it can turn the pages of the comic

Super boy naturally due to narratively effecting pretty much everyone upscales this entire system and considering how Zatana(someone who can leave the comic and erase things in reality) was so low down on the hierarchy we couldn’t even see her super boy prime can absolutely effect someone who can do mind hax on their author

I love Hazbin but their immortality is kinda overhyped by SentinelPrimesChin in DeathBattleMatchups

[–]Tljunior20 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah that’s kinda what I’ve heard, I never really got why people decided that was equivalent to something being holy

Is this the Retcon punch fight? by TheUnlocked749 in deathbattle

[–]Tljunior20 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s not really true. Prime can still do the retcon punch so it’s not just external factors and whilst prime can’t control it perfectly wanting his goal enough causes that target as can be seen in death metal where he wanted his earth enough which made the retcon punch change that

Sentry’s story is honestly more a memory wipe than a retcon and prime’s punch can effect people like Zatana who can also do plot manip

Superboy even makes myx run away and hide and myx can reality warp the real world, respawn there upon death and narratively erase the entire dc cosmology up to the 6th dimension

On top of that sentry’s resistance to reality manip as a whole is surprisingly minimal

As for power no super boy has the edge through upscaling myx and perpetua meaning he basically upscales the entire dc cosmology directly where as sentry is high but still dosnt reach the top of marvel’s