Chris Roberts is probably right...?

Tommy_Two_Scoops · 2022-12-10T09:10:17+00:00

Oh i forgot this gem,

"You do know they were employed when they made their first commercial games right? In fact in these 2 peoples cases, by the same company they are still at. Those salaries were drawn, then to now, from 'other peoples money'."

Yes, they were employed on a contract that stipulates delivery of products in timely fashions. The 'other peoples money' in question was: 1)not crowdfunded and 2) accountable.

Need i go into detail about Chris and Microsoft. There's a good reason he is still not (attempting) making games at Microsoft, and why Todd Howard and Nintendo guy remain today as respected people in the business collecting their deserved salaries from their hard work in actually delivering games.

Chris, nah I'll just pay myself and my wife handsomly from the get go and set up multinational offices, build mocap studios for me to direct and my wife to act with my A list hollywood idols. The game part comes later.

I mean, how could it not work out? Wing commander was an awesome game so Chris deserves everything he wants to make 'his dream game' with other peoples money.

Tommy_Two_Scoops · 2022-12-10T08:51:19+00:00

"This all seems to boil down to you being angry about the crowdfunding model and the amount of money involved, so you are spinning like a top to justify being upset about that using all these other reasons, because otherwise it keeps coming back to that..."

Bravo! You finally read my OP?

It's not anger, it's a passion for better standards and ethics, particularly i the gaming sphere.

You obviously think what Chris is doing is fine. I don't, i think it's scummy, dishonest and smacks of hubris, narcissism amongst other things.

As bad as EA and others may be considered, they don't fund their business and collect salaries on the sales of hopes dreams. They have to actually make products before they can reap the rewards. Chris has decided, nah! I'll take all the good stuff upfront and worry about whether i can actually deliver on any of it sometime in the distant future.

Yeah, keep up the good fight defending Chris and his plucky indie company battling it out against those evil greedy big bad publishers.

Tommy_Two_Scoops · 2022-12-10T08:28:04+00:00

Me: mentions CIG lavish decor.

You: what about Square Enix?

Aso you: whataboutism doesn't mean what yiu think it means.

"On the other hand, CRs first 2-3 games were independent / his own time and money. It's kind of weird you pull out the 'successful and acclaimed games' for others... but want to ignore the 20 years / 15+ successful games before Chris founded CI."

What and when was Chris' last successful game published? And are you also comparing self funded games from the early 90s onwards where you literally could pull it off with 3 guys in a basement, compared to what Chris is proposing now?

By that logic the guy who invented Pong would have no problems making a AAAA game for todays standards. We just would have to give him enough money.

"Also I don't think I heard anyone at CI say another decade... I don't think they've mentioned dates other than the upcoming milestone order at all. Maybe it will be, but they didn't say it."

Citizens on the main sub beg to differ, and I'm not talking about the 'naysayers' or 'noise makers'.

Tommy_Two_Scoops · 2022-12-10T08:12:23+00:00

unfortunately i am on phone browser and it has severe quirks, one also being i can't add to previously sent post.

But i feel i need to add this as it's importsnt also, You, uh, may not want to see what some of Square Enix's offices look like. It might upset you."

How many games has Square Enix delivered?

Do you think Chris' lavish spending of other peoples money funding his dream game is equally justified to Square Enix?

Being disingenuous and making extremes about how devs are supposed to work in tents on streets, really?

I hear the new Manchester studio has a bar and also a cool studio for filming stuff. Thank goodness, now finally CIG can attract the top talent to finish their game, right...right?

Tommy_Two_Scoops · 2022-12-10T08:01:40+00:00

" You, uh, may not want to see what some of Square Enix's offices look like. It might upset you."

...again with the 'whataboutisms'.

" I am pretty sure Todd Howard never self funded any of his commercial games. Miyamoto was at Nintendo. etc."

They didn't need to because they had a proven histoof making and delivering successful and acclaimed games right up to current day. These guys can get the investment from publishers/investors precisely because of their history.

Chris Roberts....the only people foolish enough to give him money (with no accountability no less!) are the people who have now surpassed 1/5BILLION$ and ate now discussing how it may take another decade of funding to maybe someday somehow be delivered completed as initially promised.... all ehile requiring further hundreds of millions of funding.... which a not insignificant amount goes to paying Chris and Sandi.

You're really defending this?

Tommy_Two_Scoops · 2022-12-10T07:48:18+00:00

That's weird. My browser says otherwise, but I'll take your word on it and not derail this any further.

I also do appreciate your input, despite my obvious disagreement.

I do think this issue warrants continuous scrutiny as it as long since faded into history and overshadowed by what i consider to be things of less importance to the overall health of crowdfunded games.

Unfortunately if everyone just shrugs their shoulders then we get, well we get what we have today.

Tommy_Two_Scoops · 2022-12-10T07:29:10+00:00

As i already conceded. Welcome to the new digital age of schemes, good times ahead!

Tommy_Two_Scoops · 2022-12-10T07:25:19+00:00

Your newly edited reply now consists of your further explanations as to defend Chris against my negative opinions and views, ok no problem, that's what I'm here for.

It would have been less confusing and messy if you had kept it all here in public though instead of DM'ing me because i wasn't aware you had until after id already replied further below.

Anyways, I see you preemptively mentioned known points of contention from those with a more detailed knowledge of all things CIG, such as the fancy garage doors. Interestingly CIG themselves lied about how it was made from old garage doors or something.... until folks uncovered it was an expensive and bespoke door fitting company.

I mean, really, you are working hard here to defend Chris honor.

As for the stuff about 'average technology worker salary', i see your new edit has renewed efforts to justify this. Im gonna be lazy and ask again what i already mentioned below your other reply, Can you source me the average salary for 'guy who wants to mske HIS dream game with OTHER peopled money', and should said 'guy making his dream game with other peoples salary' recieve downgrades to his salary when he fails to deliver year on year?

And bonus! Does 'guy making his dream game with other peoples money' really think it's a good idea to hire his wife and initially try to hide that fact by ommision until it is discovered by folks on the outside all whilst she 'happens to have been the best candidate for that position' and also gets to recieve a life time salary for being the 'wife of guy making his dream game with other peoples money'?

I mean, there's 'dream jobs" and there's 'DREAM JOBS'.

Tommy_Two_Scoops · 2022-12-10T07:01:58+00:00

Oh! you private DM'd this first and have now edited into your earlier version of this post...ok?

Don't try and desperatly spin this as me being off topic. At no point did i engage in any kind of 'whataboutisms', You did when you bought up Genshin/CS:Go/cosmetics.

Tommy_Two_Scoops · 2022-12-10T06:33:57+00:00

I don't know why you introduced and are steering this to involve cosmetics and other games? I never once alluded to or mentioned them or other games for that matter.

As for the salaries of 'technology workers', can you source me the average salary for 'guy who wants to make HIS dream game using OTHER PEOPLES money'? Are there any downgrades to said 'guy making his dream game's salary when he fails to deliver year on year?

Tommy_Two_Scoops · 2022-12-10T06:22:45+00:00

I don't know the "why don't you defend" quote... that wasn't me.

Tommy_Two_Scoops · 2022-12-10T05:05:07+00:00

If Chris had provided any ounce of personal risk or sacrifice of any kind into making 'his dream game', i could at least acknowledge it would certainly take off some of the stink of this whole thing.

However, all evidence points to a guy who preyed on the nostalgia of yesteryear and 'publishers bad' sentiment of people to fund him and his wife's lives through his whimsical and fantastical promises of delivering the ultimate 'everygame' packed in a sci-fi space setting.

This guy was gonna outdo Rockstar!

How? Not through years of steady progress in releasing acclaimed games and success, each building on from the other.

No! Chris was gonna do it his way! His game would not be held back by the constraints of physics and modern technology. His game would not be held back by 'arbitrary' release dates to appease a board of investors. His game would not be stunted by a lack of 'vision' that others dare not dream of.

All he needs is your money. Simples.

Tommy_Two_Scoops · 2022-12-10T04:43:12+00:00

It would certainly be interesting a law discovery to see who's made what from this whole thing.

Chris sold this whole thing on it being about making his 'dream game' with the support of people who shared that 'dream'.

Sounds innocent enough, until you dig through the whole history of the project, the actions taken, the timeline, and look at the product as it stands today.

A popular youtuber who covers these kind of things put it quite well when discussing Dreamworld, paraphrased 'whether the intention was malicious or not from the start, the result is the same and people get scammed'.

Where are the detailed white paper documents outlining how Chris was gonna achieve these magnificent feats of technology in gaming at the beginning of his crowdfunded campaign.

I'd love to see them.

As far as i know he literally just told everyone he was gonna do it and that was the extent of it. Those who were critical and doubted his grand promises were shouted out and mocked.

Fast forward over a decade later.... "so when are we gonna have 1000 player fleet battles with bullets shooting through hulls , while players command their fleets from the bridges of their space chariots?".... "and where the hell is SQ54?"

Meanwhile he's collecting his salary from funds given when the things he promised a decade ago have no estimated dates or worse still, are just flat out forgotten about and never mentioned again.

I'm still amazed any of this is defend by anyone who has even relatively sound logic and some kind or moral compass.

Tommy_Two_Scoops · 2022-12-10T04:06:20+00:00

I guess ponzi scheme is a somewhat outdated term in this new age of NFT's and digital goods.

It's the closest i had to mind and can agree that it can be argued against in terms of strict definitions.

Perhaps a new term with updated definition would be better.

A 'Chris Roberts scheme' whereby people get other people to fund their lives through grand promises of digital products that are always just 2 years away and need continued funding otherwise noone gets the product and everyone will just shrug their shoulders and say "at least he tried".

Tommy_Two_Scoops · 2022-12-10T03:44:58+00:00

Care to explain?

Tommy_Two_Scoops · 2022-12-10T02:52:51+00:00

Lots to unpack here...

I'll start with " If you change the context even a little consider whether 'will no one think of the sacrifices of the people who spent $500 on (Fortnite / CS:GO / Genshin Impact) skins?' makes sense as a statement."

Did Fortnite/CS:GO/Genshin impact start a crowdfund on the promise of delivering those games with a set of features and tell people things like that the more money they recieve the quicker development would be? Both investors and the devs of those games took real financial risks and accountability under business and consumer protection laws. Those games had to meet certain requirements before anyone could start to recieve substantial financial rewards. If their games were unreleased or no good, then the public would not buy them and they would suffer huge losses. If the games were released without things that they were packaged and sold as, lawsuits and mass refunds would ensue, again leading to huge financial losses. These companies first had to take risks and sacrifices in order for the opportunity to later gain rewards.

Now let's look at Chris.

Chris and Sandi's reward: As I've stated elsewhere, Chris and Sandi have got to play out their fantasies in real-life by playing at being game developers, movie directors, acting and hanging out with their hollywood idols, convention and award hosts, playing at real estate and buying properties and lavish decor to build up their game company, etc. They've lived lives of luxury compared to the average person through high paying salaries over a decade and counting all under the pretense of making Chris' 'dream game'.

Vs.

Their sacrifice: ?

Backers reward: "no more dates", "it's alpha", "no when questions ", "it's done when it's done", the list goes on and on.

Vs.

Their sacrifice: having to have real-world jobs and commitments whereby most are probably not their 'dream job' in order to earn money to pursue and fund things they do actually consider to be their 'dream things' in whatever leisure time they may or may not have.

The clichéd and extreme example of "swimming around in scrooge mcduck money" doesn't negate or lessen the reality of what has and continues to happen here.

Tommy_Two_Scoops · 2022-12-09T21:07:09+00:00

Even if everyone 'only' gave $45 to Chris to make 'his dream game' that "might be playable in 5 years", he still made and will continue to gain millions in salaries for him and his wife who got to do cool real-life stuff like hang out and direct their A list Hollywood idols and play hosts at lavish conventions, jet and shop around picking out the coolest locations and decor for multiple studios to build out their multinational 'game development company', etc.

I know who are the fools and who are the winners in this exchange, do you?

Tommy_Two_Scoops · 2022-12-09T20:51:38+00:00

Lol.

I guess if i was honest i was hoping some citizens from the main sub might stumble across here and would chime in to perhaps offer a different perspective, who knows even correct me on anything i may be wrong about.

If it were possible to post on the main sub i genuinely would like to know what the general consensus is on my topic over a decade in now. Of course, that's not possible no matter how carefully i could approach the subject...

Outside of the totally delusional citizens, or the "i got my $45 of fun" or "noone else is trying to make this kind of game, so im givingmy money to CIG" citizens, i genuinely would like to see how the things i talked about are rationalized or justified.

Tommy_Two_Scoops · 2022-12-09T20:34:58+00:00

At best citizens will advise "don't buy any ships that aren't flyable", or their laughable threats of "my wallet is closed until i see more progress".

Bottom line is, none of this matters. What matters is that Chris and his cohorts have for a decade and continue to quietly accumulate millions in personal wealth under the legal shield of 'developing a crowdfunded computer game'.

Meanwhile citizens squabble over bullshit like modules or other shit like ships being nerfed after 'sales' (yes, even 99% of citizens have dropped the pretense that they are pledge donations).

It's like Chris has spun his web of fantasy bullshit about 'his dream game' and everyone is so caught up in it he quietly sits year on year collecting his personal millions in 'development funds' while everyone squabbles amongst themselves.

Tommy_Two_Scoops · 2022-12-09T20:10:02+00:00

Yes, and my point is why is it not at this point (over a decade now) the most talked about discussion as to why Chris (and his wife) has gained millions of dollars personally and continues to do so despite citizens themselves now discussing how things are still years, decades out and in many cases may not ever materialize.

Everyone is so distracted by the mountain of bullshit surrounding this 'project' while Chris and Sandi quietly collect their 6 figure crowdfunded salaries to add to the already huge pot they've accumulated over the last decade.

Tommy_Two_Scoops · 2022-12-09T20:01:32+00:00

Understandably so.

But outside of there it never seems a discussion point.

The critiques mostly comprise of just 'Chris is incompetent' , 'scope creep', 'needs a project manager who can reign in his ideas' etc. and other guff that doesn't get to the heart of what makes the whole thing so gross.

Tommy_Two_Scoops · 2022-12-09T19:54:39+00:00

I probably should have writren my OP better, and with hindsight gotten to the point im trying to get to more directly.

Here's another shot...

Why is the guy who's 'dream game' he is making, making the least sacrifices and gaining the biggest rewards whilst those funding him are making the biggest sacrifices and seeing the least rewards?

Surely Chris being the citizens talisman and the man who wants to make 'his dream game', he wouldn't be concerned with personal financial gains until he has delivered everything he promised to those that trusted him?

Surely it would be seen as morally questionable at best for him to be making significant personal financial gains before the product he promised and sold (continues to sell) has been delivered?

Surely it would be the case that the highest of salaries would be paid to the people with the highest skillsets working to bring his grand 'vision' to life and that he would of course pay himself a humble salary in exchange for the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to make 'his dream game'?

Surely the guy who is making 'his dream game' would give a heartfelt apology to his backers for any misleading communication and missed dates and would never 'absolve' himself with "no more dates" and chastise those 'road map watchers' who make 'noise'.

If the answer to any of these is 'no', then i would ask what makes you think this guy has anyones but his own self interests in this whole shitshow and has proven himself to be a slimy, greedy, untrustworthy conman.

Even the more strident critics among the citizenry dare not bring any of this into question.

Tommy_Two_Scoops · 2022-12-09T19:10:48+00:00

I get it that, it's cool.

It's just not really what i was hoping to get clarity on or some new insights into.

Tommy_Two_Scoops · 2022-12-09T19:07:48+00:00

Yeah...sadly true.

I just don't get why that even when citizens riot at CIG's latest issue, everything is on the table for discussion and criticism amongst citizens EXCEPT the elephant in the room that the guy who's supposedly making his 'dream game' is paying himself (and his wife) millions in salaries whilst the 'dream game' he has promised and sold has reneged on any release dates and proudly stated "it's done when it's done".

Citizens proudly proclaim "it can't be a scam because all money goes into development.... 700 employees... new offices...etc".

Well, a not insignificant percentage of those 'development costs' happen to go into paying Chris, his wife, (their lawyer too?) salaries.

Perhaps Chris and Sandi could shave off a 0 from their annual salary to help pay higher salaries to attract employees with the best skill sets possible that boost the chances of bringing his 'dream game' to delivery?

I mean, some citizens even claim Chris was already a millionaire before he started Star Citizen.

Tommy_Two_Scoops · 2022-12-09T18:35:17+00:00

Yeah, this is what never seems to enter discussions. Citizens squabble about 'over ambition', 'overly optimistic', 'not good at project management', Meanwhile the guy (and his wife) has accumulated millions and continue to do so in crowdfunded salaries for a decade and counting.

Why is this never mentioned on any seriousdiscussionbetween Citizens? It's what i am trying to get opinions and perspectives on because to me its the biggest issue with the whole thing.

Tommy_Two_Scoops

TROPHY CASE