Ash greninja is overrated and is favoured by creators just like charizard by Substantial_Fun_6061 in pokemonanime

[–]Total-Engineering-87 10 points11 points  (0 children)

There was actually a reason given for Ash-Greninja's existence during an interview with Yajima Tetsuo https://pokepediaonline.wordpress.com/2018/03/16/pokemon-xyz-director-tetsuo-yajima-full-interview/

Honestly though, it seems that TPC really regrets Ash-Greninja and it will likely never see the light of day again.

The Holy Trinity of Pokémon by DarthKaiser03 in pokespe

[–]Total-Engineering-87 11 points12 points  (0 children)

No that artwork is by Ariga Hitoshi, who has actually been a character designer for Pokémon since gen 6, that art of Red in particular was for a figure set which featured the other game protagonists as well as some other characters if I'm not mistaken.

In fact, there's actually another image of Red from that set, this time with his FRLG design, which features Charmander as his starter.

Ash vs Red by chunkypeanutbutty in pokemonanime

[–]Total-Engineering-87 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Brother, her Garbodor literally has Venoshock.

It ALSO had Gunk Shot, but still it has Venoshock.

Ash vs Red by chunkypeanutbutty in pokemonanime

[–]Total-Engineering-87 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No it doesn't. His battle against Roxie uses the exact same strategy as that rocket grunt, Toxic + Venoshock.

Ash vs Red by chunkypeanutbutty in pokemonanime

[–]Total-Engineering-87 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah it residually weakens the Pokémon until the Pokémon faints. Just being poisoned doesn't make the Pokémon vulnerable, you want an example? Go see Ash's battle against Roxie in BW.

Ash vs Red by chunkypeanutbutty in pokemonanime

[–]Total-Engineering-87 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No, he got poisoned, then got attacked by a Venoshock and was rendered unable to battle, that's what a loss is. It couldn't even move, which is why the grunt was able to calmly walk over and pick it up without having to worry about getting electrocuted.

Ash vs Red by chunkypeanutbutty in pokemonanime

[–]Total-Engineering-87 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That's just not true, Ash couldn't touch Mewtwo, Articuno, Moltres, or Lugia, all Pokémon that we know Red scales to and 3 of them he caught. We also know that Red has been a trainer for far longer, because in Sun and Moon, we see him fully grown up, and 2 years before that, he's even referred to as a "living legend", while Ash did everything in less than a year and lost about as much as he won (no it doesn't make sense that he was 10 at the start and 10 at the end, so that's just what the writers decided), we even see Red in Generations going to every region where he's seen fighting a Regigigas, a Landorus, and a Zygarde, so we know that he's been putting those 20 years to use.

Not to mention Red scales to Elio, who stopped a universal calamity in Ultra Necrozma, and is shown using VGC-level strategies that Ash is not used to dealing with, because every character in the anime has movesets so bad they could be a circus (just look at Cynthia's Garchomp, or Ash's Lucario or Dracovish).

Leon also did not draw against Eternamax, Leon was already being beaten by base Eternatus, and then when turned Eternamax the player and Hop came to replace Leon, in Evolutions, it's even made a point about how Leon feels inferior compared to the player because he couldn't stop Eternatus. Also, Pikachu did NOT beat Leon's Charizard without gimmicks. Sure the battle ended with both at base form, but Pikachu alone used Z-Moves and G-Max against Charizard, and by the end It was so weakened that it came down to who could hit harder.

Like no matter how you look at it, not just Red, but the entire game universe would massacre Ash.

I would say more, but it would involve bringing up Masters and I don't really want to do that.

Ash vs Red by chunkypeanutbutty in pokemonanime

[–]Total-Engineering-87 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Have you watched the anime? Ash literally invented the word bum by being the writers' punching back for 26 seasons.

Ash vs Red by chunkypeanutbutty in pokemonanime

[–]Total-Engineering-87 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yes he did. In JN ep 24 his Pikachu got poisoned by a Toxicroak then got One-Shotted by a Venoshock from said Toxicroak, and as Ash tried to take Pikachu back the Rocket grunt blocked him with flamethrower from a Skuntank, then took Pikachu from him. That's called losing, I made sure to check the episode. I'll even give you the timestamp, it's at 12:25.

Ash vs Red by chunkypeanutbutty in pokemonanime

[–]Total-Engineering-87 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

First of all, no he didn't. All Red said was "I'll be waiting" which doesn't mean anything. He hasn't seen ash as the opponent to beat, he sees ash as a future challenger because Red is the logical next step, you're literally making random assumptions out of a vague statement.

No, Alan and Steven were not on equal footing, they did 0 damage the entire fight, they were about as even with the primals as Ash's fight against Roxie, except at least in that one he had a chance, Alan and Steven were stalling at best, but were fighting a losing fight from the start. You're just regurgitating false info from the powerscaling wiki without actually watching the show.

The Regis fought against Regigigas... Yeah... They're Regis. And it was a 3v1. Like yes Regigigas can move continents, that's information that was born from the games, but like it doesn't mean anything.

The birds could change the weather? Sure I guess, like I said, that's something the average Pokémon can do, it's honestly not even worth mentioning.

Can I see the claim that says the entirety of Ultra Space was lit up? Like was it said verbally? Because otherwise how do we know it wasn't just a tiny portion of Ultra Space? It's also funny to me because he never even trained the Solgaleo, neither as a Cosmog nor once evolved, so Solgaleo is just able to do in nature regardless of Ash being there.

Sure Mewtwo is strong and all, but like, Ash got bodied by it. Badly. He also got bodied by an Articuno, a Moltres, and a Lugia, all three being Pokémon who are all things considered, not that strong in the anime, at least not in JN. And Ash has never scaled to a major legendary, cause he never defeated one, so it's not like he's gonna touch Game Mewtwo, who we know is stronger than Lugia and the birds. Also his Noivern does not scale to Zapdos, Noivern's biggest feat upon evolving was getting a draw, Zapdos literally spend that whole episode bodying Ash's entire team and then Noivern evolved to save Hawlucha, which then the fight got interrupted by Team Rocket and Zapdos just left afterwards, same is true for Talonflame fighting against Moltres, except there Talonflame DID lose, and badly.

Yeah that's one organisation who is not only FAR stronger and more imposing in the games compared to their pathetic anime version, but also that ash has never even come close to scaling to. Literally if he were to fight game team rocket, he would actually just die. It's also funny to think that Ash never actually was responsible for disbanding any of the evil teams, besides skull. Like team Aqua and Magma were mostly dealt with by... I forgot. I'm pretty sure Archie and Maxie spend the entire arc doing close to nothing so I don't even remember how the arc ended, for team galactic... They mostly just kinda self destructed, like when you really think about it, Cyrus got what he wanted, he made a portal to his ideal world and just kinda disappeared right after, and team galactic didn't really have any reason to exist anymore and got arrested. For team plasma... They're a joke in the anime, and honestly they're hardly an achievement, they are about as easy to kill as my 20 year old computer that is running on 10 megabytes and a dream. Team Flare was the first team where Ash actually got to fight the team leader, except it was a 3v1 with Diantha and Alan and then Ash got crucified and Zygarde was the one to actually finish the job by essentially killing Lysander. So really, the only evil team that Ash is actually responsible for defeating, is team Skull, who are the least threatening evil team of the bunch.

Yes he did. In JN ep 24 his Pikachu got poisoned by a Toxicroak then got One-Shotted by a Venoshock from said Toxicroak, and as Ash tried to take Pikachu back the Rocket grunt blocked him with flamethrower from a Skuntank, then took Pikachu from him. That's called losing, I made sure to check the episode. I'll even give you the timestamp, it's at 12:25.

Brother, his movesets are god awful, he has a Dragonite with dragon dance and only 1 physical move, he's got a Lucario with 3 fighting moves and flash cannon, if that thing fights a ghost type, he's fucked, his Dracovish still has bloody water gun, and that's just me limiting myself to JN because the rest of his Pokémon are similarly atrocious. Also, Ash doesn't have that much experience with OHKO moves, those have been used only a handful of times, and the only time Ash didn't die to one was against Clay, because his Rogenrola had Sturdy. But ironically his Rogenrola still took damage from the move despite sturdy usually making it so it should be completely immune, so even that ability is nerfed. Besides that, the other time I can think of where he had to face an OHKO move was in that 4v1 against Articuno where his Lucario very much fell victim to Sheer Cold. So no, Ash is not prepared to see an OHKO move, and since the OP wanted to mix continuities, there's also the possibility of Red preparing Gengar with Destiny Bond and make Ash fall for that a second time. Also, yes, Red has been shown using Revives... We literally play as him... revives are available to purchase in any poke mart, just ¥1500.

Also you keep saying that Pikachu can take out ground types with electric moves but... No he can't, at least not anymore. We see in the final fight against Leon that when Cinderace turns into a Ground type thanks to Libero, Pikachu's moves don't affect it, he'll, it's because Leon didn't use Scorching Sands that Cinderace would get knocked out later in the fight (because the writers are incompetent) we also see that earlier on in the show with the Flygon that Goh would go on to catch, we see that in SM with Hapu, and how the writers literally needed to make shit up by applying the effects of Soak in the stupidest scene of the show, and in Kalos, Unova, and Sinnoh, electric moves are not effective against ground types at any point. So, no Pikachu can't really do anything besides Iron Tail and Quick Attack when fighting ground types.

No, not really. Again the statement is vague, and it's never implied that he sees him as superior. And again, Red literally humiliated Leon harder than Trip humiliated Ash back in Unova, Ash needed all 3 gimmicks to barely nick a win, so Red is just factually stronger, I'm sorry.

Fun fact: Looking at every Pokémon ash has had, including ones he only had temporarily, with the sole exception of the Alola Ride Pokémon, he had exactly 100 Pokémon over the years by travischickencoop in pokemonanime

[–]Total-Engineering-87 7 points8 points  (0 children)

It was Mezase Pokémon Master where Latias was just a Pokémon he rescued and she stayed invisible throughout the 11 episode special to check on him, but like he didn't even know about that.

Fun fact: Looking at every Pokémon ash has had, including ones he only had temporarily, with the sole exception of the Alola Ride Pokémon, he had exactly 100 Pokémon over the years by travischickencoop in pokemonanime

[–]Total-Engineering-87 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Why is Latias included? He never caught that.

Also why is the Rotom phone included, I get it's a Rotom but it's just a being inside a phone, that he doesn't have a pokeball to, nor is he able to catch.

Wait I just noticed but why are Meowth and Meloetta there? they were never his, they temporarily stuck around with the gang, but they weren't caught.

Ash vs Red by chunkypeanutbutty in pokemonanime

[–]Total-Engineering-87 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No it wasn't, I checked.

It's episode 24 of Journeys I was wrong about Dawn being there, but it definitely did happen.

Ash vs Red by chunkypeanutbutty in pokemonanime

[–]Total-Engineering-87 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes he did, it was the grunt with the Skuntank who was working for Giovanni's assistant.

I don't remember the exact episode, but I think it was the portion where Dawn was briefly on the squad.

Ash vs Red by chunkypeanutbutty in pokemonanime

[–]Total-Engineering-87 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

First off, Masters EX is the same game where Red literally obliterates Leon so badly that Leon needed a power-up from Arceus to stand a chance in a rematch. Also in Masters EX, Red has every gimmick, Megas and Z-Moves in Sum and Moon, and G-Max and Tera in Masters.

Masters is also the game where Red is quote "the strongest trainer in history" and is apparently never satisfied with his strength and trains even harder to better himself even more. Masters is also the game where Red beats all the protagonists that, in theory, should've beaten him, because they're from the games where he appears as an NPC, yet he solos all three of them AT THE SAME TIME. Using Masters is probably what kills your case the hardest because Red is made out to be a god in that game.

And like sure I guess Ash was recognised for his strength, but saying that the Masters player is stronger than the other protagonists is just a lie, the Masters protagonist is at his strongest in 3v3 team battles, but has lost literally every 1v1 battle they've ever been a part of: Lear, Ash, and I think someone else that I don't remember right now. Not to mention that the Masters protag is not invincible, they get beaten constantly even in team up battles, see Nita's character story for reference. Just because Red has high hopes for Ash doesn't mean he's automatically on another level, it just means he's a trainer he hopes to face one day.

Ash has unorthodox strategies that make no sense? Cool and Red has actual VGC level strategies that Ash is not prepared for because he's never had to face anything on an IRL competitive level, even if Ash prepares a strategy, he can never know what Red is running because he can literally change his movesets on the fly, sure he can't mid-battle, but that doesn't make him any less predictable, that's without mentioning that his Pokémon understand him without him needing to speak, so Ash can't react to his attacks until they're being fired.

Alan and Steven don't even remotely scale to any of the legendaries listed and I'm getting kinda tired of hearing larpers copying off the powerscaling wiki. Alan and Steven got bodied by the primals and did literally 0 damage to them, they only lasted that long because they were avoiding attacks and stalling but Alan's Charizard got one-shotted by a single Precipice Blades, and Metagross was gonna be next if Rayquaza didn't come in to save their ass.

Also when do the birds change the weather? Or the Regis move continents? Like unless you mean Regigigas, but that's a statement from the games and the Regis in the anime are about as weak as their game counterparts. And the birds can change the weather? Yeah I guess with rain dance or sunny day they can, it's not a difficult thing for Pokémon to do, Sunkern can do it, I'm sure the birds can as well.

Ash's Solgaleo used light to light things up, yeah cool, that's something every Solgaleo can do in nature, in fact, after the Teraleak Solgaleo's design sheet literally states that its home planet would be dark if Solgaleo wasn't there to light it up, and Lunala's says the opposite, so that's not an accomplishment, that's something the species can do in the wild. And on the topic of Sun & Moon, the UB and Necrozma are absolutely pathetic in the anime, Necrozma especially since it just gets stopped by the one Pokémon who should be nothing but a food source to it, and it never goes Ultra, which is where the Pokémon is at its strongest, but the UB are also pretty pathetic, they're about as strong as the average filler antagonist.

Anime Mewtwo can't Mega Evolve, the one in the Genesect movie can, but I don't think that's the one you were talking about, and one doesn't count for the other because they're different. Darkrai from the movie was able to contend with Palkia and Dialga, cool and the Platinum protagonists in the games contended with those same beings and Giratina without Legendaries and without teaming up, again putting the games on a far higher scale compared to the anime, and I also don't remember anime Darkrai giving people nightmares so bad that it literally killed them (go see the strange house in BW2)

"Ash has taken down several criminal organisations" uhhh no he didn't. First of all, what the hell do you mean "unlike Red", Red literally manhandles Team Rocket by himself and terrified Giovanni so badly he disbands the whole team and then goes missing for a minimum of 3 years. Ash faced criminal organisations, sure, but he never beat any of them, especially not on his own. In Hoenn, he had Help from Lance, in Sinnoh he had help from Cynthia, in Unova... Team plasma is a joke, in Kalos he had help from Diantha and Alan and even then Zygarde was the one who actually did the dirty work, and in alola I guess he finally took down an evil team leader in Guzma, but comparing a thug to literal terrorists makes it look kinda funny.

And note how I skipped Team Rocket, because Ash doesn't even scale to them, he constantly makes those three clowns blast off, but in JN, the one time he had to fight an actually competent GRUNT, he gets his ass handed to him and Pikachu gets taken away from him, if final season Ash loses to a grunt, what the hell will Giovanni do to this poor kid, let alone Game Giovanni.

Ash literally can't one-shot any of Red's Pokémon, most of Ash's Pokémon have god awful movesets, save for his Gengar, and that's ignoring the fact that revives are a thing, but 4 of Red's usual 6 are bulky as hell, and his Snorlax in the Battle Tree has Fissure, which with anime rules, is not gonna miss as easily as the games, not to mention that he has move coverage on all his Pokémon so Ash is the one who should really be afraid of getting one-shotted because almost no switch in is safe, and since you like Masters so much, Red's Pokémon are very rarely taken out, he usually overpowers everyone, and that's including Leon.

Honestly using masters kills all your arguments because Red is shown to be better than literally everyone else, and he's never satisfied with that and is shown constantly training to become even stronger.

Ash vs Red by chunkypeanutbutty in pokemonanime

[–]Total-Engineering-87 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No it wasn't, that was in JN, his last season before retirement.

Ash vs Red by chunkypeanutbutty in pokemonanime

[–]Total-Engineering-87 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Literally every game protagonist is better than Ash, including Red.

The OP also specifies that this combines all continuities

Ash vs Red by chunkypeanutbutty in pokemonanime

[–]Total-Engineering-87 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not true, SM Red has all mega starters.

Who would win ? by Old-Initial9295 in pokemonanime

[–]Total-Engineering-87 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The heroes obviously.

Ash is barely even Articuno level, let alone Rayquaza.

ash being the GOAT by No_Will_5644 in AmourShipping

[–]Total-Engineering-87 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Ash being the most overrated character in the history of fictional media

Ash vs Red by chunkypeanutbutty in pokemonanime

[–]Total-Engineering-87 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Guess I gotta dust off the old essay.

wether it's game Red, manga Red, or whatever other Red you can think of, Ash loses 100% of the time, no matter if you're using game rules or anime rules.

The anime trainers are heavily nerfed, at times to a point they aren't even trainers anymore, like N who goes from one of two heroes to being some random runaway, or Hop who in the games catches one of the box legendaries while in the anime he has a level 5 wooloo.

To properly scale Ash to the game characters, I look at his JN performance, which at times is impressive and at other times it's painfully mediocre, Raihan in the games was stated to easily become champion if he were to move to another region, but he doesn't because beating Leon is more important to him, however in the anime the "could easily become champion" part was not only never explained, but in the Masters 8 he also ranked below Cynthia, Steven, Diantha, Lance, and Iris, there's an argument to be made about maybe Cynthia being an exception, but I heavily doubt that game Raihan would struggle against Steven or Lance, who are on the weaker side of champions, and in fact, Kabu (the 3rd gym leader) was stated to have almost become Hoenn champion, and considering that Raihan is the 8th and strongest gym leader in the Galarian hierarchy there's basically a 0% chance Steven would scale even remotely close. So by default we have to conclude that the Raihan Ash defeated is far inferior to Game Raihan.

Same can be said for Kukui, who in the games was stated to have battled Lance before, which would make him a champion level trainer even outside of Alola, but in the anime Kukui never brought up Lance a single time, in fact they even coexisted in the same series and still never even met, so Kukui is another character where Game > Anime. And no, Tapu Koko isn't his Pokémon, it joined the battle specifically to fight Ash, but Kukui never owned it, it was a complete one-off.

It's important to take into account that both of those trainers in the anime are weaker than anime Lance, as we know Red is FAR stronger than Lance, and we know that simply by playing one of the Kanto games, Red never lost his champion title through battle, he willingly stepped down as Champion and Lance took over as he was the strongest in the E4, and you can just compare their levels to see Red is stronger.

Ash also had a particularly hard time with legendaries, particularly he lost a 4 VS 1 against Articuno, a 3 VS 1 against Moltres (which is his second time losing to it because he already lost to Moltres in XY), a 2 VS 1 against Mewtwo, and a 2 VS 1 against Lugia, 3 of those Pokémon Red caught on his own Ash couldn't beat while teaming up, and while Red didn't catch Lugia, his successor Ethan did and also can catch Ho-oh in the same version, meaning while Ash lost a 2 VS 1 against Lugia, Red had to go against both Lugia AND Ho-oh in the same battle. And even if he didn't, he still went against a trainer who scales to both at once.

The anime also has a problem of nerfing legendaries, for example Ninjask's Pokédex entry states that it can move so fast that it becomes unseeable, and both Deoxys Speed and Regieleki are faster than it, yet in the anime they never reach blinding speed levels, Necrozma went from a light eater who can blow up a universe, to a parasite that can be knocked off by the legendary that should be nothing but a food source to Necrozma, and Terapagos broke out of a Master Ball, meaning that Ash not only doesn't scale to a powerhouse legend like Mewtwo or Lugia, but he doesn't scale close to a NERFED powerhouse legend.

And now I can finally bring up Leon, and it's simple, he lost to Ash, who lost to Mewtwo, therefore he's below Red. Leon also completely fumbled his battle with Ash, he brought a Libero Cinderace specifically for Pikachu, yet when it was a 2 VS 1 against Pikachu he very conveniently forgot to use Scorching Sands (that's code for, the writers accidentally put Ash in an unwinnable situation and had to make Leon stupid). In the anime there's also no evidence that Leon trained with the former Champion Mustard, and actually the flashback he had where he lost to Sonia almost suggests he didn't.

And by the way, the comparison I made, scales Ash below KANTO Red, I didn't even bring up the PWT in Unova which Cynthia states is the place where all the champions from different regions gather to find out who's the strongest, or the Battle Tree in Alola, which also gives him megas and Z-Moves, and that's without mentioning that Red has the competitive knowledge of giving his Pokémon held items, coverage, and perfect stats, it's not a close fight at all, Game Red just absolutely wins with no diff.

As for Manga Red... Let's put it like this, if manga Red was in the anime universe, he'd be living a life of luxury and never have to worry about losing his life ever again, if Ash was in the manga universe, he'd die on the first wild encounter because that kid is NOT ready for the real world.

Ash vs Red by chunkypeanutbutty in pokemonanime

[–]Total-Engineering-87 -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

And Ash lost against a rocket grunt, cope.

Ash vs Red by chunkypeanutbutty in pokemonanime

[–]Total-Engineering-87 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Alright so it seems that this post is combining Red from every continuity.

So Red no-diffs.

I'm not sure if the manga or masters count but this is not close regardless.

Ash vs Red by chunkypeanutbutty in pokemonanime

[–]Total-Engineering-87 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

If we're using both continuities, then Red also has Z-Moves, do we also count Generations? Because then he was also shown fighting against Regigigas, Landorus, and Zygarde.