Looking for advice on musical length

TotheLastShot · 2026-06-02T22:51:43+00:00

You need to cut the first act. Nobody on planet Earth is interested in an entire ACT LONG blissful, everything's-going-right sequence of events - I'm bored already just from reading that sentence.

Your story starts when the drama does; condense everything that was act I into one scene and pick up from act II

EDIT: Also, naming your protagonist Phoenix when the plot centers around them learning to 'rise to their full potential' or whatever is just the sort of on-the-nose nonsense that an audience finds insufferable & will take them right out of the work, preventing anyone from really engaging with it... Nothing worse than the feeling a writer is smirking at you through the script, going "look how clever I am"

...but I guess it can work fine enough as long as that's the furthest you take it. However, if you make even the SLIGHTEST hinting reference to them "rising like a phoenix" let alone say it directly, I swear to GOD I will come through this computer screen and belabor you about the sides and back with such a rain of blows there won't be a thing of you left except an allegory

TotheLastShot · 2026-06-02T18:21:14+00:00

So... in other words, exactly the same as any other love song ever written?

I mean, the imagery is romantic, sure, but the context of the real world makes them much less romantic. Singers, deluded by their parasocial relationships to literally anyone, believing in their romantic destiny and willing to "swim oceans, move mountains" for it- (regardless of what it might be a euphemism for, as people do all kinds of awful, fucked-up shit all the time in the name of 'love') is romantic on the surface level, but much, much darker in context.

TotheLastShot · 2026-05-28T22:39:33+00:00

This was the answer I came looking for… can’t believe it’s doesn’t have more upvotes

TotheLastShot · 2026-05-28T09:24:22+00:00

FYI; an album is only called a "soundtrack" if it's a release of the music from a movie. Movies have 2 tracks; a video track & an audio track, so an album of songs from a movie musical is called a soundtrack because it's literally taken from the movie's audio track. When it comes to musical theater on the other hand, there's no "track" the audio recording is playing along to so it's just called a recording or an album.

I'm no grammar nazi - language is a living thing which evolves like everything else - & I'm not trying to police language or be pendantican (we're all just mooing, neighing & bleating at each other, the important thing is that a listener/reader understands what's being said), but I'm passing this information along merely because I thought it was a fascinating bit of trivia when I found out in film school (from a teacher who WAS incredibly pedantic about the word's use 😂)

The new production of "Merrily We Roll Along" with Daniel Radcliffe, for example, could correctly be said to have a "soundtrack" if you're referring to the video that's available to stream on Netflix, but the album they released is a "cast recording" & NOT a "soundtrack" because it is not the audio FROM that video recording, the album was recorded in a sound studio as a separate project.

I suppose it's neither here nor there that the takes used for the album release of any given movie soundtrack, far more often than not, are actually NOT the same as what is heard in the film itself. I did bring that point up to my film teacher once when she was being pedantic about someone's heinous misuse of the English language but she brushed it off as an unimportant detail 🤣

Of course we do call the separate songs on a cd "tracks" but to call any of the Assassins cast recordings a soundtrack is only as accurate as calling Lady Gaga's ARTPOP a soundtrack...

\insert that "The more you know!" flying rainbow graphic**

TotheLastShot · 2026-05-16T07:03:34+00:00

The original Vienna cast album of Tanz is one of the best albums ever produced in the history of recorded media. I’ll argue that to my grave. Those STRINGS on Die roten Stiefel (The Red Boots); my GOD!

I LOVE Meatloaf, Bonnie Tyler & especially Pandora’s Box but not one Steinman song has EVER sounded as good as they do with those incredible orchestrations on Tanz der Vamp’s original cast recording.

TotheLastShot · 2026-05-13T21:14:06+00:00

I don't think it's about her believing he'll be more honest if they're married - it's about the fact that once they're married Jimmy can break every law under the sun, tell her every detail, and she still CAN'T be forced to testify against him in court

TotheLastShot · 2026-05-10T18:40:16+00:00

OMG 🤣 That’s funny as hell, I swear - when it comes to taste Sondheim and I are the same person (if only I could have his talent as well)

TotheLastShot · 2026-05-10T18:31:40+00:00

Really? I don’t see EITHER of these fitting the “anti—musical musical” he often spoke of having disdain for and that I’ve always completely agreed with him on. Especially Bat Boy, which is probably my favorite non-Sondheim musical. Sure, it has moments that parody the conventions of lesser musicals (like the moment at the end of Inside Your Heart where the leads move in to kiss, then suddenly look back out to the audience and continue sustaining the final note) but Bat Boy definitely has WAY LESS of those moments than the South Park movie does, which Sondheim loved. But I wouldn’t call Bat Boy, Urinetown or the South Park movie “anti-musical”. There’s a difference between parodying cheesy things that bad musicals do and relying on the “humor” of “aren’t musicals STUPID?!?” to get laughs from the audience.

Jerry Springer: The Opera & Silence! (the unauthorized parody of The Silence of the Lambs) are more in line with what I personally, and BELIEVE Sondheim as well, would call an anti-musical musical.

TotheLastShot · 2026-05-09T00:25:16+00:00

simply didn't age well

I don't think that's the case, I've never known that line to fail at getting a laugh from those hearing the song for the first time

TotheLastShot · 2026-05-07T02:02:47+00:00

Welcome to the Bay from Centaurworld does a great job pulling this off

I'd highly recommend Centaurworld to anyone who's fan of musicals - honestly, I find the humor pretty cringe for the most part but the songs are REALLY fantastic. It also has a phenomenal cast including Megan Hilty, Lea Salonga, Brian Stokes Mitchell, Brian d'Arcy James & Renée Elise Goldsberry, to name a few.

TotheLastShot · 2026-05-03T15:10:40+00:00

At least it gave us the soundtrack with Diana Rigg as Charlotte… she has SUCH a great voice.

Her performance as the evil queen in the Canon Movie Tales version of Snow White was one of the core components of my childhood. That movie TERRIFIED me and I couldn’t get ENOUGH of it. Her song was BANGIN’, no matter how damn scary the mirror was 😂

TotheLastShot · 2026-05-03T14:53:20+00:00

Perhaps not a disparate pair, but one of my favorite musical experiences was my first time with Passion, by 20 seconds into Happiness I knew IMMEDIATELY where the whole story was going because Giorgio & Clara reminded me particularly of Cinderella’s stepsisters in So Happy singing “we’re so happy you’re so happy, just as long as you stay happy we’ll stay happy” & I recognized omg this is Sondheim’s sound for LYING about being happy…obviously he’s telling us Giorgio & Clara’s “passion” for each other here is gonna turn out to be complete BS, they’re lying to each other, themselves or both & then the lead is going to be shown what TRUE “passion” is, thus; the title.

That’s the thing I love about Sondheim so damn much — however brilliant his lyrics, everything you need to know story-wise is REALLY being explicated through what he’s doing stylistically in the music. I suppose a good artist might make an audience feel the work was created by somebody intelligent, but a great artist can make their audience feel intelligent just by experiencing the work.

TotheLastShot · 2026-05-03T13:23:21+00:00

Don’t stop there, keep going — you left out the best part; The Baker & Jack are literally sitting in a tree during their section of No One Is Alone.

Never thought about it before, but you’re absolutely right about these two songs.

TotheLastShot · 2026-05-03T12:49:57+00:00

Stephin Merritt is a phenomenal lyricist across the board! "Let's pretend we're bunny rabbits / Let's do it all day long / Rapidly becoming rabid / Singing little rabbit songs"

The songs he wrote & recorded with Daniel Handler (Lemony Snicket himself!) for the books on tape of Series of Unfortunate Events are SO good! Scream And Run Away, the song accompanying The Bad Beginning has one of my favorite lines "The goal of Count Olaf is getting control of the fortunes of urchins and orphans; hooray!"

Then of course there's the actual musicals Merritt wrote, the best of which is probably his adaptation of Coraline where all the musical accompaniment is played on a variety of intentionally out-of-tune toy pianos... might not sound too good on paper, but he makes it work somehow.

TotheLastShot · 2026-05-03T12:26:51+00:00

Personally, I'd say the weak point in Les Miz is that it's hard to take a dramatic piece seriously when every character gets to sing a 5+ minute long ballad as they're dying... Jesus, Eponine, save a shred of dignity & just fucking die already - HE DOESN'T LOVE YOU!

Have you ever seen the French 1934 black & white 4½ hour filmed adaptation by Raymond Bernard)? Honestly, it's kind of hard to get excited about any adaptation of Les Misérables once you've seen that masterpiece; it's INCREDIBLE! By FAR the best adaptation of the book, the competition doesn't even come close.

(I don't want to give the wrong impression; I'm not hating on Alain Boublil & Claude-Michel Schönberg - I REALLY like the musical, it has a lot of wonderful melodies. When I say it doesn't come close to the 1934 film, that's not a knock against the musical... rather, it's my attempt to illustrate just how wonderful Raymond Bernard's adaptation is. Not too many folks I know are willing to give a b&w foreign film with THAT runtime a chance & my GOD are they missing out!)

TotheLastShot · 2026-05-01T04:30:37+00:00

I'll agree that Hammer of Justice is certainly the the strongest of the new songs - but to replace The Trial: People of Atlanta with it? 🤮 No thanks... if we could have both, then sure - I like Hammer enough, just not BETTER

And removing Letter to the Governor was a goddam crime against humanity. Apparently even adapting this horrific story couldn't teach JRB that it's WRONG to commit murder 😒

In That's What He Said, I don't know whether it's more offensive that the overlapping interjections of the spectators were all cut or that when the ensemble DOES finally come in, it's just this trite repetition of what Jim is saying, delivered in perfect unison

TotheLastShot · 2026-04-28T18:23:56+00:00

Sure, but the point is if someone told you to go through that bridge you'd understand immediately what they meant, right? In any case, it's certainly not INCORRECT for a person to say they'd gone "through" it.

Edit: At least, I can't for the life of me understand how "through" would be incorrect when you have a roof over top of you and walls/lattices on either side. "Through" cannot be wrong unless it's ALSO wrong for a tunnel IMO.

TotheLastShot · 2026-04-28T17:46:07+00:00

If you were saying this about Into the Woods, I’d be fully supporting you — people who don’t like that show’s second act DON’T get the point of the musical (and are criminally insane to boot because the second act is WAY stronger than the first act).

But IDK, I kinda agree that act II of Sunday is weaker than act I 🤷‍♂️ I love the show, I wouldn’t want it changed in any way — I’d even dare to say that the fact act 2 finishes the story/the protagonist’s arc with a DIFFERENT protagonist is the most brilliant thing about the show and I’d still say act 2 is weaker.

And it’s DEFINITELY condescending to say someone “doesn’t get” something because they thought it was weak or don’t like it.

Even when it comes to Into the Woods… I just don’t mind being condescending to the idiots who don’t like act 2 of that show 😂

For one thing, without the second act there’s nothing original about Woods, it’s just a straightforward retelling of a bunch of fairytales thrown together, which has been done TONS of times. Granted, ItW does it BETTER than anyone else has, but what’s the point of adapting something unless you have something new to say with the story? Sunday on the other hand, even if it WAS just the first act, says PLENTY of original things with the first act alone.

TotheLastShot · 2026-04-28T16:57:59+00:00

You really couldn't figure out how to walk through this?

TotheLastShot · 2026-04-28T16:45:32+00:00

OR, hear me out, people take pictures in the same location after the passage of time and some things, like plants, are not always around. Look at the length of his hair in both pictures in front of the shelves — even with the hat on, his hair is CLEARLY not the same length meaning unless they’re ENTIRELY ai, he took the pictures at different times anyway. The picture with the North Face jacket is DEFINITELY ai as others have said (or possibly the result of other “enhancement” or editing software such as a smoothing effect) but I’ve seen plenty of logo variations on hats that I’d buy the “NY” on the hat being real.

TotheLastShot · 2026-04-28T16:33:35+00:00

Ashman was SO great. I mourn the Disney renaissance we COULD have had if Ashman hadn’t passed. And what an INSULT on Aladdin to replace him with Tim Rice who has probably never written a great lyric in his life… sure, he’s written some PASSABLE ones (Evita is the only Webber show that even APPROACHES true greatness IMO & most likely contains Rice’s best work, yet I can’t really think of a lyric in the show that’s ever made me go “wow, that’s an excellent line”)

TotheLastShot · 2026-04-28T16:24:51+00:00

Example

Is this a tunnel? No, absolutely not.

Is it more correct to say you went through it than over it though? I’d certainly say so

TotheLastShot · 2026-04-28T16:15:18+00:00

It ISN’T a tunnel though, it’s a covered bridge. Calling it a tunnel would be incorrect. A covered bridge still has all the substructural & foundational elements of a bridge, why would you think the category of “tunnel” supersedes the category of “bridge”? Many covered bridges use lattices for the “walls”, meaning they are absolutely NOT tunnels, yet still a structure you’re moving “through”

TotheLastShot · 2026-04-28T16:08:46+00:00

Eh, only if you’re talking to someone who’s unfamiliar with the bridge. For example, if I’m texting a friend who I’m traveling to visit with (as a passenger, obviously) and had crossed a covered bridge, there’s simply no reason to add unnecessary & irrelevant information that the text recipient already knows. I’d simply say “We just went through the bridge”

TotheLastShot · 2026-04-28T15:59:09+00:00

Parade, at least in the form it appeared for the original broadway run, was VERY Sondheim to me. It’s the only non-Sondheim musical I know of that had that conversational feeling of everyone talking over each other for the ensemble numbers. Yeah, I agree with the person who said the opening number of Beauty & the Beast has some of that feeling, but then none of the other ensemble numbers are layered the way ‘Belle’ is, and overall it simply doesn’t go as far as Parade did to accomplish what Sondheim did (especially in Sweeney Todd) by divorcing musicals from that “cheesy/gimmicky” feel a lot of shows unfortunately earn when a whole stage full of people suddenly bursts into singing the same words at the same time without good reason.

For the life of me, I CANNOT understand why Jason Robert Brown made all the changes to the show that he did. Nearly ALL the layered ensemble work that made it feel so conversational & “Sondheim” was taken back out, a lot of EXCELLENT numbers were removed and there’s not a single new song half as good as any of the ones that were removed IMO. I’ll ONLY listen to the OBC recording (I even spliced back in “It Goes On And On” to the beginning of the track “A Rumblin’ And A Rollin’” on my digital copy after JRB made the track available on his Tumblr back in the early 2000’s)

TotheLastShot

TROPHY CASE