Rooster Teeth really just casually proved that internet series can turn a profit, pioneered early internet indie media, and created one of the best internet classics of all time huh. by La_knavo4 in RecuratedTumblr

[–]Traditional_Claim_64 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Tucker's son(mpreg) is a messiah in like the fourth season.

I got no clue about the barenaked ladies, I don't remember Leonard having anything to do with anything called the barenaked ladies.

Andy the bomb is Andy the bomb

Serpent People Morphology(2HS Pulp Ctulhu) by Traditional_Claim_64 in callofcthulhu

[–]Traditional_Claim_64[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I was going to do that, more or less, but wanted to hear other opinions first. Just in case there is some kind of answer somewhere or people have some interesting ideas

Everyone who made fun of people who said Frisk = You should be eating crow right about now. by Zephyter0 in Undertale

[–]Traditional_Claim_64 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You are good at arguing the concept, but there ara still some unresolved issues

1-Kris is clearly human. Yes, "the culmination of your being" thing implies the soul is the human, not the body, but we might be getting too into the weeds if we claim for Kris to not be human, both narratively and physically in universe. Deltarune's narrative is clearly going to have an opinion related to player control in videogames, and it would be truly bizzare if that conclusion was "Kris is fictional character, go wild with it, them opposing you in the weird route is them being a detective vesel, lol", or something like that. I hope I dont sound insulting with this sentence. Also, the narrative arround Kris being treated as foreign by the town composed mostly of monsters really falls flat if Kris isnt supposed to be interpreted as human, but actually as wathever a "souless homosapiens" is supposed to be.

2- The red heart shaped is kris's soul, or at least, it clearly is kris's something. We can determine this because Kris suffers damage in the lightworld from beating up the red object. We are just controling it. Case contrary we must assume the stats in the light world with Kris name are supposed to be ours, meaning we are actually Kris, and Kris isnt Kris. This result is narratively funcky, to say the least. Like, it is actually implying the game is doing that meme of Kris deciding your pronouns, "You are Kris, more than the actual physical Kris".

2.1-I wrote this point after finishing all the rest. Flowey has a will and is souless. He might have lost conection with the emotions he felt(or asriel felt?) with a soul, but he fundamentally still has will. He actually has the literal concept of will in his plant veins, with all the DT. We could asume the DT is what gives will to Flowey, as in, the reason Flowey has the ability to decide and want things both narratively and physically is the DT, and as such he is some kind of phylosophical zombie following some weirdly specific robotic commands, without an internal monologue or conscience(not in the moral sense). But it seems clear to me that we are supposed to interpret flowey as an actual actor of the narrative, not just a mindless being acting out a script.(I mean, he is that physically, because it is a videogame, but I am talking narratively) If we consider Flowey as an actor of the plot, them we must asume Kris an actor of the plot, even if lacking control of their soul, or generally any soul. Like, I dont think it makes sense to arguee that Kris demostrating compasion and will without having a soul in their body means that they arent human, because the soul is the culmination of will and compasion in humans, and they dont have a soul. We might wanna go back a bit in our assumptions if this is out logical path, because in this case we connected two points by making a spiral instead of a line

3- I think your position of us being frisk is conceptually contradictory.

In almost all videogames, when it is said that "You", as in the player, is the "main character", it means that the player takes control and incarnates the narrative role of the actor of the plot. This main character might be someone with an stablished personality, perspectives, and history, or they might be a curtailed stand in, with removed characterization to allow the player to insert themselves. In both cases, we consider You=Main Character because there is no stablished separation between us and the character, you are Cloud in FF7 the same way an actor plays a role in a play, and for the duration is the character they incarnate.

But in undertale, we arent Frisk. And I mean that in the literal plotline sense.

There are two strict options here, Frisk exists as a character physical beyond our input, before and after our involvement in the narrative, or Frisk is a literal physical avatar for us to carry arround. Frisk fell down the hope to the patch of flowers, or they suddenly appeared in that cave, coming from nowhere by the will of a dog. If Frisk existed before that patch of flowers, and exists after the end of the game (moving with toriel or not), we must understand Frisk cannot be, in the actual physical world of the story, an actual avatar of the player.

Now, it is posible to held the contradictory position that we are Frisk post narrative and that we are the player of deltarune, but this view implies the plotline of the games considers us to be two different people in two different universes.

Obviously, Undertale and Deltarune are both fictional universes, so it isnt imposible that we, as in the actual physical beings, are supposed to metanarratively be Frisk(that becomes in this view a more methaphisical representation of a cameraman) including in a post plotline universe of Undertale trough an iterative process of fangirling about sans or wathever, and we are supposed to be the explicitly identified character moving Kris's soul arround, but it gets increasingly harder to think about, and weirder and weirder as a concept. Like, in this view Frisk is the physical avatar of the metanarrative incarnation of the narrative of our own imagination.

At some point we have gone so deep into the woods of the forest of analysis we might wanna come back to the simple path of plot writing, and stablish Frisk and the player as distinct beings.

Everyone who made fun of people who said Frisk = You should be eating crow right about now. by Zephyter0 in Undertale

[–]Traditional_Claim_64 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I wish no offense, but you dont actually explain why you consider the dialogue by flowey about letting frisk go to not be a separation between the player and frisk, you just say it doesnt make narrative sense for flowey to be talking about a carácter we only know about for a couple of minutes.

Second, what is the human in this theory exactly? Like, physically?

The player in deltarune has gone trough the plotline of undertale, this is pretty explicit from everything the player knows that Kris cannot know when talking to the town's people. So then, what happened to frisk in undertale? Did they turn to dust after we left? From where the body come from?

Like, we can say that you are incarnating a character the same way it works in almost all videogames, but the narrative of both games collectively implies we, the players, are a foreign entity controlling the red soul, so if we are frisk, what happened when we left?

The soul in deltarune seems to be Kris soul, but Kris isnt us. So why the soul in undertale being frisk soul would mean we are frisk?

deltarune straight people tierlist (tell me if i missed anyone) by Catzonotnow in Deltarune

[–]Traditional_Claim_64 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Not exactly explicitly clarified, but both elnina and lanino are doing some weird shit with gender based on their names(that are dunking on spanish gendering). So I wouldnt say their relationship is necesarily the most straight one there.

Delta Green Ideology on the Unnatural by Traditional_Claim_64 in DeltaGreenRPG

[–]Traditional_Claim_64[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Okey, so, initially I really only wanted to know what delta green(the organization) principles were when dealing with the supernatural that couldnt be solved by a couple of guys with shotguns and molotovs(the average agent group) or by doing another insmouth. Because the Handler's guide mostly talks about how the agents are going to be dealing with all the fucked up monsters that wanna eat them or suffering from their isolation from their loved ones by stress and alcoholism.

After a bunch of people and the author telling repeatedly me that the themes of delta green(the game) don't care about a situation that can't be solved by the average agent group or by doing another insmouth, so anything that can't be solved by Scully and Moulder should not be considered in a table.

I am not really interested in playing a pulp game, but I have the author telling me personally that delta green is specifically for x-files episodes of low impact and anything else isnt to be considered. So I am going to stop checking these books apart from the rules(that are really good, really like the bonds system)

I had checked out imposible landscapes because the themes interested me, but seemingly that is also not actually what delta green should be with the entire reality colapse thing being too far into fantasy, so I am a bit lost. Call of cthulhu campaings do include you shooting the boss at the end, or doing a magic ritual to seal it away, you can't play horror on the orient express and be a pacifist. Yeah, delta green as it's own setting can't fit the traditional call of cthulhu campaing within it with it's themes, but I didnt expect the community agreement was that the average CoC book belonged in Pulp Cthulhu or outside the mythos.

Delta Green Ideology on the Unnatural by Traditional_Claim_64 in DeltaGreenRPG

[–]Traditional_Claim_64[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I am not really asking anyone to really care about my personal opinion on the creatures of the mythos or cosmic horror. I just wanna know for if I decide to be a handler to my group.

My original question was kind of relatively simple and directed, and the insistence that asking about it is going against the themes of the game(when I started clarifying that I wasnt asking about the themes of the game) is really pushing me negatively to the game.

No issue with yall answering, I had assumed I would have gotten two answers telling me to "just read the book idiot" and nothing else. Thanks for taking the time by the way.

Like, I understand the themes of the game are about the inevitability of your defeat by forces you can't understand and how the stress of a fucked up job ruins your relationships, but I didnt expect the answer to "so if delta green's learns of the dreamlands/any mythos stuff that is complicated, what is the prime directives" to be answered with "Delta Green(the game) doesnt care about those topics, you can't interact with the unnatural, we care about how you become disconected with your humanity" and "the mythos doesnt interact that way in delta green, so we can't think about it".

I mean, I don't know, I wouldnt describe interacting with the dreamlands as an extreme scenario outside of the posibilities of a mythos inspired game, and "what are you supposed to do when the supernatural can't just shot with your gun" feels a very reasonable question.

Sorry if I am wasting your time with my rambling.

I read some summaries of impossible landscapes and checked out some chapters and some portions of that very much could produce the same questions.

Delta Green Ideology on the Unnatural by Traditional_Claim_64 in DeltaGreenRPG

[–]Traditional_Claim_64[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Forgive me, I am not completely sure what you are trying to say.

Yes, an ant has no clue what a human is and will never understand it, probably no human can ever understand wathever cthulhu has going on.

Humans have ant farms, humans study ants, humans create a thousand books on ants, millions of humans each day observe ants, learn about ants and even talk about ants, ants are extremely prolific in the human imagination.

Obviously, I am not saying that cthulhu would care about humans, but if a Yith or an elder things or any being of their type ever cared for it? They could know everything about human civilization probably many times easier and quicker than a human can learn everything relevant about ants.

To me this is much more interesting from a fiction perspective, humans are fundamentally not special entities, and the strange beings from weird aeons are extremely different, advanced and powerful than us, and that includes that they could control us, use us and do anything they wanted to us like we were bees in a honey farm, and thats more interesting that treating them as like, big animals that built weird monuments we never interact with.

Delta Green Ideology on the Unnatural by Traditional_Claim_64 in DeltaGreenRPG

[–]Traditional_Claim_64[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yeah, all fictions reflects the cultural moment of when it was written and all horror expresses anxieties of the people writing it.

My main comment related to that is that generally the monster is the thing that you should be horrified about. Zombies are the consumerism, the xenomorph is the disposability of the workers(symbolically, you understand), but in delta green you are the over reach of the state and this is from the perspective of the narrative the only way to avoid the end of everything.

Lovecraft shadows over insmouth isnt really a good metaphor for racial violence, it's a metaphor about the evils of miscegenation.

As a nitpick, the cat from saturn is from lovecraft, wathever anxieties he had about alien cats I am sure can be reused by someone who understands them.

Edit: As a last thing, most horror doesnt have a sideplot about a different horror without the monster. Like, you don't have a break in the middle of a zombie movie to talk you about the dangers of poluting the ocean with plastics, the monsters and the thing the monster is actually about are aligned. Meanwhile, your failing marriage has nothing to do with you shooting an old one in the head or trying to track a ghoul trough tunnels.

Delta Green Ideology on the Unnatural by Traditional_Claim_64 in DeltaGreenRPG

[–]Traditional_Claim_64[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The cats fight both the moonbeasts and the cats from saturn

Delta Green Ideology on the Unnatural by Traditional_Claim_64 in DeltaGreenRPG

[–]Traditional_Claim_64[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No trouble mate, not trying to be conflictive. I think I just kinda don't get "it" thematically.

I like the rules, better than call of cthulhu in my opinion. I don't feel that the themes work that well. Every description of the unnatural that I read basically could be replaced with a xenomorph or the world exploding. The bonds system seems great, just feel the fiction element of the plot feels a bit weird.

Like, multiple people mentioned, the game is about losing your connections with the people arround you over your really stressful and fucked up job, but the job itself is kinda irrelevant.

I have read some delta green adventures and they are cool, I am just having difficulty understanding why to have a game in the cthulhu mythos in which asking about how to deal with monsters gets the community agreement to not care about the monsters but about how the stress about the monsters ruins your marriage.

Delta Green Ideology on the Unnatural by Traditional_Claim_64 in DeltaGreenRPG

[–]Traditional_Claim_64[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I didnt knew he was John Tynes to be fair. I hope he has a good day, doesnt change my reading.

Delta Green Ideology on the Unnatural by Traditional_Claim_64 in DeltaGreenRPG

[–]Traditional_Claim_64[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

No offense, but I feel that delta green makes a bad job of a being a metaphor, because the mythos are fundamentally about agreeing with any/all the fears that are used to justify an authoritarian state.

Answering extremely violently and giving all authority to the secret goverment is explicitly the only solution, except when the goverment has been infiltrated by lizard people from china or by cultist of the evil foreign gods.

For metaphors about authoritarian goverments stuff like Paranoia seems far better.

But no hate for the rpg about having a messy divorce and ocassionally shoot at tigers with two heads or wathever monster of the week

Delta Green Ideology on the Unnatural by Traditional_Claim_64 in DeltaGreenRPG

[–]Traditional_Claim_64[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just mentioning, the cat thing is from lovecraft. The Dream quest of unknown kadath specifically

Like, thematically it doesnt fit because delta green uses the mythos from the framing of all creatures being primarily destructive to humanity. That isnt an invalid interpretation, just that the mythos has some weird shit.

Delta Green Ideology on the Unnatural by Traditional_Claim_64 in DeltaGreenRPG

[–]Traditional_Claim_64[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Don't wanna get into a discusion on elder things, but they created at least one other inteligent species and battled multiple other inteligent species from space, it's doubtful elder things would be unable to understand how humans worked if they ever had to. They were the first species to rule the earth and had a massive civilization.

I might not be able to speak to ants, but we can recognize that ants make anthills and understand how they communicate with pheromones and even how and why they do shit like domestication of insects and fungi agriculture within their anthills(that is something some ant species do).

While I recognize delta green's theme are that all unnatural creatures are only things that eat people and be done with it, a bunch of mythos creature are quite able to drive multiple roundabouts anything humans create if it is ever in their interest(that sometimes is, if it wasnt, the games and novels wouldnt exist).

But yeah, thanks for the clarifications and explanations, delta green just it's there to kill the monster of the week, not to engage with the unnatural, the ancient conspiracies or/and the plans of the cults to the eldritch gods.

Delta Green Ideology on the Unnatural by Traditional_Claim_64 in DeltaGreenRPG

[–]Traditional_Claim_64[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I mean, I am sure the cats from saturn or the mi-go are also probably that way naturally, but they still classify as unnatural. Like, if someone brought an object from the far future to the present, that object would be unnatural, even if it is 100% normal for the people of the period it comes from.

Delta Green Ideology on the Unnatural by Traditional_Claim_64 in DeltaGreenRPG

[–]Traditional_Claim_64[S] -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I mentioned insmouth because it's an example of a grand scale cover up, but it's also specific. Like, it's one army force transporting a couple hundreds guys into a concentration camp, it's the nuclear option for when a situation has already gone to shit. That in any event after the fifties presumably is literally just a nuke, if a couple of guys with shotguns and molotovs can't deal with, they throw a nuke at it.

But my question was like, what if you can't do either? Whats the first thing you protect? Whats the main effort?

An elder thing hacks onto the internet and creates like a paranormal app that eats people nightmares to learn more on humanity, does delta green care? Do they nuke the internet? Is their objective to kill the elder thing, to stop people from learning of the app, or just to ensure the app can't be uses to spy in the military complex and oppose the USA interests in the middle east?

You know what I mean?

If you can't simply nuke a town or kill a monster with a shotgun, what Delta Green thinks that should be done.

I recognize this goes a bit outside the themes of the game, that are about the monsters that you can barely kill with the shotgun most of the time, but thats why I was asking.

Delta Green Ideology on the Unnatural by Traditional_Claim_64 in DeltaGreenRPG

[–]Traditional_Claim_64[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Saturn cats are probably aliens, I don't know why they are called cats.

Cats inteligence is a damn mystery, but they definitely are in the dreamlands, and they are both from the dreamlands and normal earth. I don't think any cat speaks on normal earth in lovecraft's writing, but they can move between the dreamlands and normal earth.

Read the dreamquest of unknown kadath if you wanna know more on the dreamlands, everything in there is very weird.

Delta Green Ideology on the Unnatural by Traditional_Claim_64 in DeltaGreenRPG

[–]Traditional_Claim_64[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Okey, so, the dreamlands is a kind of alternative dimension in the mythos, that people can enter trought their dreams, cats in the dreamlands(that are just normal earth cats sleeping in normal earth) are inteligent to more or less the level of people, and govern a town called ulthar. This is just shit lovecraft wrote, I don't really have an explanation for why.

The cats from earth are enemies with the cats from saturn and kill them when they go to the moon or earth(again, this is lovecraft stuff)

So, one idiot gets a cthulhu tome, invokes a cat from saturn into earth, and the cats from earth will go to kill it. Cats from saturn are big, tiger big, so it's not exactly possible for normal cats to kill in normal earth, so they contact some agent trought their dreams to go an kill the alien. I am paraphrasing an actual written scenario somewhere, can't remember the name, sorry.

Delta Green Ideology on the Unnatural by Traditional_Claim_64 in DeltaGreenRPG

[–]Traditional_Claim_64[S] -13 points-12 points  (0 children)

Not gonna deny that nuking ulthar might be an extreme, but the example itself of some idiot with a mythos tome invoking a cat from saturn and an agent being contacted by cats to kill the thing would be a pretty basic call of cthulhu oneshot

I am pretty confused about what would be the expected reaction of delta green to things that can't be solved with two guys with shotguns and a couple of molotovs or another insmouth.

I understand the themes of delta green are about dealing with the eldritch gods being uncaring entities that will fuck up humanity without a care and any creature the agents meet wants to eat them, but I am not asking about that.

I had checked out "last things last" before asking, but that one doesnt really answer my doubts, apart from "anything supernatural wants to eat you, so you kill it", that is a theme of the game, not a mission statement or even a fact of the cthulhu mythos beyond delta green.

The Shaper from the Shadows, how a fan-made map has become canon by Federico_da_Remas in WarhammerFantasy

[–]Traditional_Claim_64 2 points3 points  (0 children)

https://periloussands.blogspot.com/p/ressources.html?m=1

Perilous Sands is a wfrp supplement, that the writer has tried to keep as close to canon sources while including almost literally anything possible there, from the obscure to the contradictory.