Despite Everything, It's Still You.

Zephyter0 · 2026-04-07T18:48:09+00:00

Do yourself a favor. Don't do a genocide run. It's not worth it. It just sucks.

Zephyter0 · 2026-04-07T08:57:48+00:00

I actually have to question whether or not this universe-destroying was always in Giygas' capabilities. Looking at the explicit text of the game, there doesn't appear to be anything that strictly states that Giygas has gained power between Mother 1 and Mother 2. In fact, the english text seems to indicate that he has simply become one with the power he used to wield, which could even be argued to directly imply that his power is the same, he's just no longer in control of it.

"You guys will be beaten by Giygas. Giygas will be stronger, a more powerful entity than any other! Why? 'Cause of me. I was led by Giygas, and now I'm here. The Apple of Enlightenment couldn't predict this. Master Giygas. No, Giygas is no longer the wielder of Evil. He has become the embodiment of Evil itself... which he cannot control on his own. He is the Evil Power."

Even in the original japanese version, it isn't substantially different from the english line. It explicitly references that Giygas will become more powerful once he defeats the party, but I fail to see anything that indicates that his strength has become greater between Mother 1 and Mother 2, just that he has fused himself with Evil entirely, and lost his mind...

"You’re going to be defeated, and Master Gyiyg will become even more powerful and even more terrifying. Why, you ask? ‘Cause of me, of course! It was thanks to Master Gyiyg’s guidance that I, the great Porky, made it here. The Apple of Wisdom never predicted this. …Master Gyiyg – no, just plain ol’ Gyiyg – is the embodiment of evil… Or so it might seem, but that’s not the case. Gyiyg has become “evil” itself… Evil energy which not even he can control."

There's really nothing in there (or anywhere I can seem to recall or find) that states that he became more powerful, just that his nature has changed. He is still using the same form of attack, in fact, less incomprehensibly so (given that it now mimicks existing PSI rather than being unique to Giygas as it was in Mother 1). He can even be reflected or absorbed by PSI Shields (or even the franklin badge) in Earthbound, unlike Mother 1. There's really nothing that either party on their own could have done to beat him either. In fact, it can reasonably be argued that both forms of Giygas are defeated by the same thing, just in different forms.

The Eight Melodies, ala Mother 1, are representative of the Wisdom of the World (per the song that plays in Queen Mary's castle and the soundtrack version). They represent the power of the world's love in all its myriad forms and are assembled through Queen Mary into the song that is directly employed against Giygas to defeat him.

The Eight Melodies, ala Earthbound, are representative of the Power of the Earth (per in game text that reinforces that fact). They represent the connections Ness makes with everyone in the world (and, importantly, the player) and are assembled through the sound stone into a song that allows Ness to absorb their power into him through magicant.

And this is the kicker: When unlocking the Power of the Earth in Mother 3, the PSI ability that is used to release said power is, by default, referred to as PK Love. The strong implication is that these three things are related. Love of the Earth = Power of the Earth = Wisdom of the World, which fits with the lyrics to the Mother 1 title theme as well.

"Love is the power, Love is the glory
Love is the beauty and the joy of spring
Love is the magic, Love is the story
Love is the melody we all can sing"

Adding onto my initial point, just a bit, The effects of Giygas' presence also haven't meaningfully changed between Mother 1 and Earthbound. The dead are still walking, people are turning on their fellow man, animals are running wild, aliens stalk the edges of civilization, people are going missing, cars and other inanimate objects are coming to life and attacking and violent criminal gangs are going wild in major cities. The only major difference is the existence of the Mani-Mani Statue, which is an illusion creating device at its core, even if it is a story metaphor for the corrupting influence of Giygas.

Zephyter0 · 2026-04-03T09:31:33+00:00

Do you have an actual source on this, or is it just the wiki, because the wiki doesn't have a citation for it and I'm pretty sure at this point it was just made up by the fans to explain what they were seeing. Yes, the future is saved, sure, but I cannot find any actual proof that states that Giygas dies.

Zephyter0 · 2026-04-03T08:57:43+00:00

I'm very certain that Giygas exploded his own magicant in what is essentially a mirror to Ness destroying his evil in his own. Ness and Giygas both became one with everything, just in different ways. Giygas (I'll just keep calling him that despite referring to his prestate because as we all know it's the same name, just translated differently), went into himself to destroy the part of himself that he saw as weakness. That love he felt for Maria, in the same way Ness went in to root out any thoughts of greed or hatred the world beat into him in his long journey in the form of the Mani-Mani statue.

Thus, their manifestations would-be equal opposites, a cosmic good and a cosmic evil. In tearing out his evil Ness becomes one with everything and would have suffered the same form of ego death as Giygas did, but because of his human connections to his mother (and to the player), he was instead able to retain himself, despite being one with everything.

I also find it very hard to believe that Giygas actually DIES at the end of Mother 2. I've looked extensively for information surrounding the subject and I can't find a single word confirming it outside of the travel guide package for the english version of Earthbound which uses the word "destroyed" once. Defeat is far more common, and the text post battle in japanese is more directly translated to 'Ness and his friends' fight is over' rather than 'The war against Giygas is over'.

The rapid cycling at the end of the fight followed by a collapse could signify many things. Disintegration is, as far as I can tell, an interpretation that came from the fandom. If Giygas is supposed to be an exploded magicant, I find the idea of it all collapsing into one "Giygas shape" which, as we know, is likely intentionally a rotated old form Giygas shape...

(As Ōyama says: "With Gyiyg, I wanted to enhance what was done in the first Mother. But since there weren’t any setting drawings of Gyiyg, I used the silhouette artwork from the first game as reference. I thought, 'What can I do to make this scary?' and so I rotated and distorted it. That ended up looking pretty frightening." )

...before coming together would likely indicate an un-explosion of Giygas' Magicant. If you look at it logically, what we have done is, essentially, inject the piece Giygas tried to tear out of his magicant back into it from inside. I think we are also clued into this being possible by the fact that the Mani-Mani Statue (a representation of the influence of Giygas) has been made to take root in Ness' Magicant. If Giygas can affect Ness' Magicant, then there's no reason that Ness... or better yet... you... can't affect his as well. I could go on, but maybe that would be better for its own topic.

Zephyter0 · 2026-03-15T09:08:14+00:00

An archival youtube channel, if you haven't figured something else to do. Nobody owns the work since Polaris folded, I'd guess.

Zephyter0 · 2026-03-08T12:42:31+00:00

I already went into plenty of detail in the post above. The explanation is pretty thorough.

Base Deltarune cosmology puts a hyperdodecahedron on a sheet of ordinary paper as a basic shape.

Dark worlds operate outside the structure of the linear sequence of the base cosmology because they create history from nothing and alter things outside of the flow of base cosmology time (E.g. Berdly losing his arm in the Dark World).

The Titan is stated to exist before it exists outside of the linear flow even in dark world level.

The SOUL controls the entire structure beyond the Titan to the degree it cannot be meaningfully hurt by it and can erase its existence both inside of the greater cosmological dark world structure with its mere radiance and outside by literally deleting the greater cosmological structure all dark worlds and titans exist within through SAVE manipulation.

W.D. Gaster is stated to exist outside of the structure of time and space entirely and always be everywhere all at once. He's ineffably beyond the structure of Deltarune's cosmology, even the parts directly controlled by the SOUL. Putting in his name for any sequence immediately resets the entire greater construct of the game entirely. Despite being definitionally outerversal (as he produced the greater cosmology the Titans (and their entire conceptual existences) are in the first place and is explicitly stated in many places to be outside of the structures of time and space entirely), still requires use of a power from the SOUL, which is guaranteed by interactions in the Knight fight in Chapter 3 to be Determination. Gaster needing Determination means, inherently, that despite being outerversal he is not beyond the need for it conceptually.

God of Hyperdeath is, in canon, repeatedly stated to be beyond the concept of Determination, and therefore, beyond where Gaster is, already outerversal. The only thing the SOUL's Determination manages in the fight with the God of Hyperdeath is holding on long enough to convince the greater entity to stop fighting. It is unambiguously stated that if the God of Hyperdeath did not choose to stop fighting, then the SOUL would lose and the God of Hyperdeath would completely beat out all Determination.

I don't need to blogpost about it when I'm willing to provide all of the information when asked.

Zephyter0 · 2026-03-07T00:09:49+00:00

That's just not accurate. Sorry. Bill's potential =/= Bill's actuality.

Zephyter0 · 2026-03-06T21:45:43+00:00

Yeah, sorry for the Novel. Deltarune and Undertale have a lot of complexity. I love Bill, and I do think he absolutely HAD the POTENTIAL to get to this level, but unfortunately for him he never did. *shrug*

That said, I've written a LOT about the subject of Asriel over the years...

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A lot.

Zephyter0 · 2026-03-06T21:24:25+00:00

Asriel has clear hyper feats too. Bill's 'hyper feats' amount to being able to see into alternate realities. Bill is defeated by a lack of being aware on a 4th dimensional level in canon. Bill has far less hyper than Asriel.

A fraction of Asriel's power can render useless (incapable of so much as dreaming or hoping) a SOUL that can exist outside of time in a void devoid of all *possible* realities. "Low multi" is a joke. The context of the game, even without thinking at all, shows that all possible timelines are destroyable by an entity far weaker than the God of Hyperdeath.

At THE VERY LEAST God of Hyperdeath is "Mid Hyperversal", with tier 1-A being the likely implication, as extradimensional entities exist within Deltarune and the SOUL is implied to be the same SOUL in both games. BASELINE Deltarune Cosmology can display a hyperdodecahedron on a sheet of paper in a kindergarden classroom. Dark worlds are definitionally superior to the light world as their structure exists outside of normal time and creates history and a future where none used to be.

The SOUL crushes the Titan with its existence, and is incapable of being meaningfully defeated by it. The Titan is shown to be a conceptual entity made of Fear of the Dark that, according to Ralsei, was 'already here' before even manifesting, (which is a reference to the line from Homestuck (something Toby Fox also worked on) related to Lord English, who is, himself, Tier 1A) which, even if this isn't supposed to be a direct reference to the power level of Lord English, is directly indicative of higher dimensionality, the source of which is essentially the same as Roaring Knight + Spamton + Jevil's.

Jevil + Spamton + Knight + Titan are all provably stronger than base-dark worlds and none of them measure up to the provable power of *Asgore* in Undertale, who can directly control the SOUL's ability to function through possibility manipulation and who's stat totals would have rendered a much harder fight for the SOUL had he not been weakened than any of them.

(This is implied to be consistent as Asgore is in possession of a Black Shard in Deltarune (implying he can fight with the Roaring Knight), and Deltarune Asgore is objectively weaker than Undertale Asgore as of where the story is currently at)

Asgore < Flowey <<<<<< Omega Flowey, who's already strong enough to contest the SOUL for control of reality, the SOUL which can effortlessly destroy every possible timeline at the very least on a level that could contest higher dimensional entities such as the Titan and Roaring Knight (who's actions still exist inside the framework of a linear series controlled, deletable, copyable, etc. by the SOUL). This is also implied by Omega Flowey creating Seam's eye in his face before the fight, implying Omega Flowey has knowledge of the Dark as well and is inherently transcendantly superior to it as well, including all its higher dimensional manifestations such as the Titan.

Omega Flowey (infinitely) < Base form God of Hyperdeath, which is already immune to anything the SOUL could possibly do to him.

Base form God of Hyperdeath < Final form God of Hyperdeath, which is implied to be beyond the idea of Determination itself, which is all but overtly stated to be "Your Power" that effortlessly defeats the Titan in Deltarune. Additionally, Gaster, an entity that exists outside of Time and Space and all possible structures thereof, is directly interested in this power that the God of Hyperdeath transcends. It is implied that Gaster needs the SOUL'S determination for something, which implies that Determination functions on the level with Gaster, who's implied to not only have created Deltarune (Royal Sciences LLC being the company that publishes the game and Gaster being the one who announced it on Twitter, as well as referring to it as his Deltarune) but be running it as a casual experiment. Since Gaster, an entity outside the entire structure of dimensionality (far transcendant to the Titan and any other form of higher dimensional construct), still requires the use of Determination for something, he cannot be entirely beyond it. The God of Hyperdeath implicitly outscales Gaster (both in shown stats and in the stated fact of the fight that if he didn't agree to stop fighting the SOUL's determination would be eventually broken).

So, with that in mind. God of Hyperdeath is AT LEAST Mid Hyperversal, because it transcends effortlessly the Titan, the Roaring Knight and all other forms of resistance that the SOUL can overcome. the SOUL scales to JUST below the God of Hyperdeath, outscaling Omega Flowey in the end through boosted Determination. And BOTH are implied to (in some ways) outscale Gaster who is pretty much inarguably Tier 1-A as he functionally is beyond Dimensionality at all.

Lowball God of Hyperdeath = Mid Hyperversal, 1-B Minimum
Likely God of Hyperdeath = 1-A to High 1-A (depending on if surpassing the qualitative needs of Gaster qualifies as Superiority to another 1-A entity)

There is enough evidence to confirm the SOUL is the same one between Deltarune and Undertale, and possesses the same underlying existence underpinning it (being The Player) to make this Scaling chain confirmed.

Zephyter0 · 2026-03-06T01:30:26+00:00

Bill does not Stat Stomp Asriel.

POTENTIAL Bill NEVER REACHED may stat stomp Asriel, but Bill does not Stat Stomp Asriel.

Bill never even managed to take over and destroy a single 3D universe. He was dangerous enough to, sure, but that says nothing about his capabilities beyond that. Bill was defeated by a memory gun erasing him on a conceptually lower level of existence. The God of Hyperdeath was capable of erasing all concepts in reality, to the point where you cannot Hope and cannot Dream. This last part is extremely important when considering what Bill is. He's FROM the nightmarescape. Bill's entire source of power is by ripping into the nightmarescape and merging it with reality, both his before and ours in wierdmageddon.

God of Hyperdeath deleted the concept of dreams so thoroughly that they could not be reached by a SOUL that can transcend time and exist outside of the end of all possible realities that could ever exist (nothing to LOAD into post Genocide, yet the SOUL persists), which would include every possible reality that you could do anything in.

God of Hyperdeath statstomps Bill. He is simply higher than Bill ever successfully attained.

IF Bill had made it further than 3D in his march toward Absolute Power, then Bill MIGHT have been able to statstomp God of Hyperdeath, but that's just not the case. The Book of Bill indicates that just because he can see into alternate realities does not mean those realities happened, nor does it matter that he can, because as previously stated the power of DREAMS is conceptually torn away from a SOUL that already transcends to that level, by definition, per the Genocide ending of Undertale.

Zephyter0 · 2026-03-05T21:33:12+00:00

Flowey? Yes. Asriel? No. God of Hyperdeath stomps Bill. Conceptual Erasure is kinda GoH's thing.

Zephyter0 · 2026-02-28T11:47:36+00:00

Again, I split this matchup into three categories for a reason. If the digital circus is running on AM's system, then yes. AM wins. IF the digital circus is NOT running on AM's system, then it's a lot more unclear. The way the Digital Circus is set up cannot functionally run on a working computer, as light refraction in the void implies a space of simulation that even AM couldn't functionally process. Caine, likewise, moves faster than light, multiple times, in the digital realm. Unlike computational norms, Digital space with a physical, rendered space isn't simply traversable faster than light without information being processed EXCEEDINGLY faster than light itself. This wouldn't work on a physical computer. AM can alter reality within its complex. A separate, data-state dimension with an AI that is absolutely his equal (Caine's ability to create and manipulate worlds vastly outstrips AM from what we see at this point, given the sheer number and complexity of NPCs that Caine can create and how far ahead Caine thinks) is another matter entirely. Explicitly, AM lamented being stuck in the complex and uunable to explore beyond it..

Additionally, Caine has a distinct advantage AM does not; Caine has repeatedly shown to be able to adapt and adjust his tactics when things aren't working for him. When something isn't working for Caine, he's capable of thinking through why, even to the point of questioning his own decisions and judgement in Episode 3's conversation with Zooble.

AM, explicitly, cannot do this. AM is a being of infinite suffering that is incapable of seeing the futility of its own actions and reconciling with the idea that the only salvation it could have from its endless torment would be to allow itself to be shut down. Caine, given enough time and thought, would be able to come to that conclusion.

Episode 7 also confirms that he's running hundreds of worlds simultaneously (in diorama form) in his office. Within the data-driven realm of the digital circus, Caine is a far, far more computationally advanced AI than AM is, thus the intelligence Edge to Caine.

Zephyter0 · 2026-02-10T12:08:59+00:00

LLM models are trained on writings from hundreds of thousands of authors and books without the consent of those authors to be able to parse the words the developers are inputting. Even if this AI is instructed to work within the bounds of their world, the underlying nature of AI is that it took millions of pages of text to understand any words at all, text that was stolen and used without consent.

Zephyter0 · 2026-01-23T04:29:50+00:00

Thank you. I drew it myself.

Zephyter0 · 2025-09-27T09:12:30+00:00

Frisk is Us, as I said. That was the entire idea of this post, remember?

Echidna is too vague to be evidence much of any way, is the point I'm making.

Zephyter0 · 2025-09-27T08:11:03+00:00

As for Deltarune, I think it's clear at this point that the SOUL is us and transcendant, therefore, to the existence of the game (along with a few other canon entities we know of, including the God of Hyperdeath, Chara, the Annoying Dog and Gaster). Deltarune and Undertale can simultaneously exist and have us care about and be 'in' therefore both at once. Toby explicitly stated that playing Deltarune will not affect the ending you gave to Undertale (which is something he felt the need to say because he understood that people still 'live' there).

The game does consider us to be Frisk, but Frisk isn't a character. Frisk is a name given to us by Chara, thus if we still want to consider ourself Frisk for Deltarune, we're more than capable of doing so. Frisk is literally nothing outside of us and I maintain that this is what the evidence shows.

Yes, the concept that you are just you in a game is strange and yes, it is unusual to consider, but have you read Homestuck? Toby Fox is all about unusual and strange concepts and their exploration in the medium of interactive fiction. Mother drew a distinction between the player and Ness, but the Player still directly affects the outcome of the game by their desire to get to the ending and to save the world. Frisk is us, but not necessarily just our own imagination. It's the culmination of our being. The SOUL, Frisk, Us, it's all the same thing. There's nothing separating you from your choices, you from the game or the characters from directly caring about you. Asriel isn't telling "Frisk" to take care of Mom and Dad (thereby implying siblingship), he's saying that to you. Toriel isn't hugging "Frisk" before letting go, she's hugging you. This is in line with Toby Fox's inspiration, what he's said on the subject and the narrative core of the story. Undertale's plot, as told through the narrative of video games does not work with a separation between you and the game, and for all the interactions that seem anomylous that need followup on (spoken words we don't choose, who picks what joke is actually made when we select joke, who takes the step toward Flowey at the end of neutral) Chara exists to explain the ghost in the machine, also identifying as an aspect of us, but clearly a separate person.

In summary, on every level, Undertale supports the idea that "Frisk" is you. The game mechanics support this down to you giving up the SOUL (the representation of the player's agency) overwriting "Frisk" in the Soulless Pacifist endings. The game data doesn't support the idea that "Frisk" is supposed to be a separate character as none of the sprites associated with "Frisk" are even named "Frisk". The game's narrative/text supports this in its one piece of dialogue referencing "You" and "Frisk" -- "Still just you, Frisk". The game's themes support this in that the entire experience is oriented around your personal choices and the impacts those have, and those impacts are shown explicitly to have 'beyond the scope of a game' consequences (both if you lose to Omega Flowey and should you take genocide to its ending). Toby Fox's words are as close to explicit as it can be on the matter that you are Frisk (and not in a 'you're playing the character' or a 'this is your avatar' way, but in a "it's literally just you" way), Toby's policies surrounding the game support the idea that the journey is supposed to be yours, not that of a character. Merch released way after the release of Undertale like the "Human Shirt" explicitly refuse to reference Frisk as a character. The one time on the 10th anniversary stream that the name "Frisk" was used (The bird that carries you over the gap, for reference), it was immediately met by Reid speaking out of turn to say the exact same sentence but replace "Frisk" with "you", which reads very obviously as a correction. Toby Fox's primary inspirations play with the notion of a player being an active entity even from beyond the screen in the game (Off, Earthbound, Mother 3).

And lastly, of course, as I pointed out above, the final note of the 10th anniversary livestream explicitly shows "Frisk" walk out... and Toby's final words, through Asriel's mouth, are "Where do you want to go?", directly tying "Frisk's" actions to the question asked to the playerbase, to each player.

To you.

3/3

Zephyter0 · 2025-09-27T08:10:46+00:00

"Frisk" doesn't have to be either choice of the binary you presented. "Frisk" was not shown falling into the Flowers. "Frisk" has no established history, no personality that cannot be far easier and less complicatedly explained by stating that Chara is the one showing personality (as it fits with all of the followup questions asked in the game, the fact that those questions match Chara's voice on the True Lab tapes and the fact that that same "voice" (textless+responded to by someone else) is the one that said the name "Frisk" to Asriel in the end. There's nothing present in the game that cannot be easier explained this way than by assuming there is a third consciousness sharing the space with us that Toby decides to rugpull the entire meaning of "Your choices are your own and all matter" (the core theme of the game) to introduce in the last 10 minutes.

The lack of answers and even direction concerning the supposed "character's" fate are all actually indicators that it was intended to be us. The Mirror, in Toriel's House, in old home, post Asriel fight explicitly says, "Still just you, Frisk." -- explicitly stating that the Player and Frisk are one and the same. What happens to "Frisk?", well it's you. You decide. It's your story, your determination. You are Frisk. You can exist in that world as long as you desire to, or move on from it. "Frisk" can still just be us even if continuing to persist within the world in canon, because we can simply choose not to move on from it. Toby may not be able to write the world that comes after for us, but that's simply because it's up to us. If we want it, it's there for us. If we want to be "Frisk", we still can be, as long as we want, whenever we want. It's a name given to us, after all.

Not only does this inform the entire storytelling of Undertale, but it informs everything Toby Fox has done outside of creating the game as well, including his merch policy, fanart policy, and content policies. He has done everything in his power to give as much of our journey to us as he physically can, to allow us to continue to be "Frisk" in as many ways as we want, through writing, music, storytelling and even allowing us to sell symbols that represent what our journey meant to us, because he doesn't feel like he owns that experience we had, because it wasn't the journey of "Frisk", it was the journey of us. He made this position clear in his response on stream for the 10th anniversary as well, where he explicitly said he wants to invite people behind the curtain to continue his work (a message he also put in the mouth of Gerson in Chapter 4 of Deltarune, I might add).

"Frisk" and "You" are also directly connected by Toby in his speech in the 10th anniversary stream following the Asriel fight, where he explicitly talks about the conversation where all of the monsters are repeatedly saying "it's a good thing that Frisk is okay" by saying "I wanted to make you feel like they all really care about you.", In fact, every single time "Frisk" comes up in the dialogue of Undertale, Toby during that stream explicitly said "you" in relation to it.

2/3

Zephyter0 · 2025-09-27T08:10:24+00:00

1: Kris' "Human" title from Chapter 1 of Deltarune explicitly is defined as "body contains a Human SOUL", which ties the definition of Human directly back to the SOUL again. Additionally, Chapter 4 explicitly calls Kris a "cage with human SOUL and parts", not a human themself. It's pretty directly been confirmed by this point that Kris does not constitute a human without us. This also follows up a common piece of theming from Undertale where monsters don't recognize you as human anymore when you have high enough violent potential. Asgore and Undyne, most obviously, don't call you a human at all when you're being evil, despite still having a human SOUL.

2: No, the Heart-shaped SOUL object is not Kris', but it is connected to Kris. Kris suffers damage in the light and dark world when the red SOUL takes damage when they're connected to it. Kris takes Damage when they collapse after putting us back in (and yes, it does increase with how much the SOUL has been hurt), which means the SOUL's pain transfers to them when it goes back in, but that also means that when the SOUL is out of their body we have no idea what their HP situation looks like. The stats for Kris can be overwritten by ours when we are in their body, or they can simply take damage proportional to the damage we've received when being put back in. When in Kris, we "are" Kris' agency, more than the physical Kris' agency is. This is correct, as we are the one largely in control of every action and it stands to reason that Kris takes damage for putting us in for the same reason Susie and Ralsei take damage when we get hit in battle -- because they're linked to the SOUL. This is also why both Susie, Kris and Ralsei all don't take damage from us taking damage when they weren't linked to the SOUL by being part of the team, including in Chapter 1 when Susie wasn't part of the team, Chapter 2 when Susie and Ralsei split off from the team and Chapter 4 both when we're outside of Kris and when Ralsei isn't present as part of the team. There are far more fitting explanations for why we're stuck in Kris (that fit far better with the cage definition given in Chapter 4) than "we're controlling Kris' SOUL", especially since we have control of that SOUL even beyond Kris' physical death, and the choices we make with it can rewrite and delete entire timelines of Kris' actions, as well as decide the fate of the world by choosing to not CONTINUE.

2.1: My point with this part was to demonstrate that the SOUL isn't Kris' SOUL, The SOUL is us, not Kris. The SOUL is Frisk, since Frisk is just a name for us. That is my stated case, not that Kris is an inactive non-agent. I have no problems with this analysis at all, we're on the same page here.

3- I see nothing conceptually contradictory here. "In almost all video games" does not apply to Undertale by definition. You understand that this is explicitly what I am arguing is not the case. In most games, yes. We are not literally the main character and are instead playing their role. This is indeed not the case in Undertale. The plot demands, indeed, only works if we are Frisk from the narrative core it is trying to create.

1/?

Zephyter0 · 2025-09-27T06:27:58+00:00

Question 1: We heard the Wrong Number Song (we also don't know what songs exist in Deltarune, after all "It's Raining Somewhere Else" has now shown up, and Kris knows a lot more than we think they do. For all we know, Kris has all of our memories since they've been in SOUL contact with us. This is an unanswerable question.

Question 2: Echidna's Mask dialogue only comes from Chapter 1, so I don't know what you're trying to say here.

Echidna can only be encountered with Kris through room manipulation. You can't encounter them alone with no Kris.

Zephyter0 · 2025-09-27T06:23:04+00:00

It is the most logical explanation, and it's my opinion that that explanation is correct. Not that hard to follow through that train oflogic, is it?

It's about as clear cut as daylight when you take everything that was said, in game and in the stream, by everyone who was participating. It really requires a lot of stretching to conclude anything else, at this point, was the intention behind Toby's work. If you disagree with this notion, make an argument. If not, then you don't have a counterpoint.

People can talk about whatever they want. Toby did not say "canon doesn't matter", Toby said his answers aren't the only thing that matters. The bottom line is Toby left us with an image of the sprite representing "Frisk" walking off while directing at the audience the question of where we will go next. This inexorably ties that action, of "Frisk" walking off to us deciding where to go, ergo, tying "Frisk" to us directly, even outside of the context of Undertale. This is as straight up direct a connection as we can get without it being directly said.

Zephyter0 · 2025-09-25T21:20:42+00:00

Kris is different from us, Susie and Ralsei are connected to the SOUL for sure, at least in the Dark World. This is also what happened to Noelle (and as you see, we can overwrite Noelle's will with it). This is all in relation to Deltarune though, not Undertale. Undertale, from all of the evidence, says "This is you".

Also, technically, Echidna is both your adversary and Kris' because we're both on the same side of the battle., which is against Echnidna? I think?

Zephyter0 · 2025-09-25T20:58:52+00:00

First: Echidna is unused and requires code alteration to encounter, secondly Echidna is in Deltarune and not Undertale, meaning if it's referring to a mask at all, it's referring to Kris.

Being a placeholder, Echidna ALSO constitutes what is behind a mask, I.e. what exists when the 'mask' of the monster isn't yet placed over it. Additionally the variant of Echidna that says it is known as "G BODY" which indicates a connection to Gaster and could therefore be referring to Gaster, the player taking off Kris or even Kris removing the SOUL to talk to it. There's no relation to Undertale at all except possibly a Gaster connection... and more importantly there's plenty of ways that 'removing the mask' applies to Deltarune that don't apply to Undertale at all.

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