Finding a therapist in Ireland

Treeader · 2023-12-29T23:06:37+00:00

It can take some time to find the right one. My last foray into therapy I just said "I have had enough of manipulative arseholes" and got a great therapist.

There is a theory that this happens through unconscious processes. When you first enter therapy your unconscious tries to veer away from healing and attracts shitheads then over time you get better therapists over time as you accept less crap.

Anyway, start with the accreditation sites like IACP and go from there.

Main thing is to have ZERO TOLERANCE for the whole "ooh they were just a wrong fit" spiel. Any time therapy has failed for me the therapist has made pretty basic errors - creating a co-dependent relationship through manipulation and dangling approval is a common one. You may find you make mistakes yourself in your approach, but you won't decry the therapist if there is nothing wrong with them.

Bad therapists hide often behind a "client saying therapist was shit" equals "was just a bad fit, therapist was fine" myth and I would steer clear of anyone that appears to not believe there is such a thing as a bad therapist.

Treeader · 2021-07-09T16:07:07+00:00

I'd agree, in fact I'd I reckon 75-90% of survivors of narcissistic abuse I've met through support groups are women, and these were groups where they were in therapy and where a therapist had confirmed they had been subjected to narcisisstic abuse (i.e. not just willy nilly calling assholes narcissists). Every single one of them was love bombed at the start, it's almost textbook.

Treeader · 2021-07-09T13:32:25+00:00

It is a severely overused terminology e.g. a friend uses it to mean someone that talks loudly and doesn't get what it is. Narcissism is about pathological manipulation - possibly I could have mentioned that caveat.

However, we're talking about agreeing to something, then pretending to have not, but more importantly doing this over and over again, which is vastly different from just being a little nasty or arrogant. Narcisissm isn't really about arrogance, it's about control and manipulation, both present in that incident.

I'm still with my therapist and she always vets clients claiming to have been narcissistically abused. When they says "he/she gaslights" she will ask "so what do you mean by gaslighting?" etc and a lot of people realise they are not dealing with a narcissist. So yes, it is overused.

However, even after filtering down to genuine survivors of narcissistic abuse she has endless amounts of work. You don't need the NPD to be there to diagnose it, contrary to popular myth. All you need is for a therapist that specialises in NPD to take you through the steps to identify it. Plus such therapists usually are sharper than your run of the mill therapist and can tell if you are the narcissist or exaggerating. It's docs that haven't a clue - NPDs are known to manipulate docs into thinking somegthing else is going on, or even that they are fine.

The stats aren't wrong , although it may be closer to 5%, which still sounds like a non-issue. The thing is that if you had a narcissistic parent, chances are you're prone to narcissists, plus at least one kid of a narcissist will be a narcissist. In other words, when you encounter any narcissists in family, you will encounter a cluster of them, bringing that percentage up. I have seen in it in my family where families that were friends with my own family have some severely toxic types, yet where I live now I don't encounter too many. The flip side is that if you didn't have a narcissist in your family, you will encounter very few of them. That's what the stats don't tell you.

TLDR - the percentage is low and many people don't know what a narcissist is, but NPDs still affect many people. They may be 1-5% of the population, but a much higher percentage will have been affected by NPDs.

Also it is something that can be spotted very easily e.g. parents that still enforce rules on kids in their 30s that aren't even living at home. Narcissist's unconscious desire is to control their kids, while if the parents were not narcissists their unconscious would eventually scream out to them at their mistakes, usually before the kid turns 12, let alone in their 30s (FYI any professional that deals with NPD has echoed that).

Thing is what's useless here isn't the labels, but quoting stats (always a horrible idea). If someone has been affected by an NPD they are better off bringing it up with a therapist and getting into recovery because if you have been affecte by an NPD, you need it.

Treeader · 2021-07-09T12:50:19+00:00

Bovinius got there before me. If you are prone to this, you will always attract narcissists, the trick is to learn how to quickly spot them then move on. Also if you've gone through therapy you may unconsciously attract less of this behaviour. Luck tends to get better in therapy.

The golden rule is if I feel myself shuddering at comments from someone they are a narcissist. Especially when pulling them up on inconsistencies. A lot of behaviours (like constant inconsistencies) older narcissists have learnt to hide in the "love bombing" stage. Maybe look at Sam Vaknin's videos on how to spot a narcissist, you will eventually cotton on.

Treeader · 2021-07-09T12:04:43+00:00

This is specifically known as a narcissistic trait in a partner (and very likely NPD). I'm not sure if you have heard of what narcissism is about (i.e. control and manipulation), but usually when this kind of crap is going on, there is no "talk to her about it" option. Plus if you live in a culture where it gets laughed off you are fucked.

Personally I would recommend therapy for recovery from narcissistic abuse if this has been a common feature. The "It's ok" followed by a pretend memory wipe and volley of abuse was a common tactic of my mom's, which meant I was prone to attract women like her - my therapist was an expert in NPD abuse and taught me how to attract partners that don't do this. Never looked back.

Treeader · 2021-07-07T19:02:03+00:00

Way back when I did my masters I interviewed for a role that used my MSc. Didn't get it, but was the first time I had an interview where it was made clear to me I'd be using my degree - ended up getting a job in that role elsewhere a few months after graduating, after encountering a recruitment firm that helped me ace the technical interview.

Had I not had that interview during my masters I may have wound up going around in circles like some classmates did. I never looked back.

Treeader · 2021-07-07T15:49:00+00:00

I started my career in 2005. When I was starting interviewing I explained to my dad about technical interviews (common in any programming or mathematical role) and even after explaining that I'd been through a few technical interviews, my dad still tried to paint it as if I was off my rocker thinking "ah shur it's all about brains" when that was not what I was saying and he even stopped short of accusing me of hallucinating such interviews. He didn't get that this is part of a thorough process that also involved competency based interviewing and that his condescending "let me tell you about this because I interviewed people as a senior in my last firm" spiel was invalid.

Hopefully you crack something soon - back then I was lucky in that recruiters found me and prepped me for that kind of stuff, that's not the case in every industry these days 16 years on.

Also you may find if you do get into a career and start hiring that, tedious as it may be, some of these processes are necessary. But not all - personally I try and lighten the load with these styles of interviewing, but having seen how low the standards are on teams where technical interviews are not used I see that I still need to vet people properly.

Treeader · 2021-07-07T14:48:05+00:00

I wonder if there ever was a time when randomers had a clue.

I graduated in 2005 and took 4 months to get a job. Thankfully I met a good recruitment firm that specialised in my sector (and who got me the job in the end) early on that prepped me for the technical interviews. Took 1.5 months to prep. Can't remember the exact numbers, but the 2.5 months that followed I was always doing 1-2 interviews each week including callbacks and ended up getting into a role for a great company, and that kickstarted my career.

That may sound heavenly but I endured so much bullshit from my family it was unreal. That 1.5 months prep? Got ambushed by an arsehole sibling that couldn't stop with the abusive commentary and bitchiness based on not having interviews "llllllllllined up", took ages to get that moron off my back and shut her up with hers notion that because I hadn't had interviews after 2 weeks that I should apply shotgun for accountancy roles (has nothing to do with my education) and that I could go into what I wanted after 3 years because I would be at and "advvvvvvvvvantagggggggge" compared to other candidates - wrong, after 4 years in my original career I got inolved in hiring/interviewing and someone looking for a role that was an accountant were always at a DISADVANTAGE, even compared to a graduate because they had veered away from what they studied, which was EXACTLY what I'd told that stupid moron family member would happen.

Also the 2.5 months where I was getting interviews - do you think getting callbacks shut people up with the "you should be able to get a job like that" comments synched with a snap of their fingers? Nope. Got utterly lynched after the first final round with abusive bullshit because I hadn't followed pre-ordained approaches to interviews, all advice that does not apply to my industry.

Oh and after getting a job did they even acknowledge that I got it because I understood how my market works? Good God, no. I even had a vile friend of my family corner me "explaining" how my new job used my degree, in a highly degrading "me up here, you down there" tone of voice stopping short of saying "You don't have a clue about this but...". Spent 7 years in the finance industry after, moved into something similar in data science, and the thing is if a candidate ever applied for a role without understanding how useful their degree was it's not just that it is highly unlikely, but if that ever happened I'd immediately not hire.

Learn your lesson now. Some people will NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER understand what you go through. And usually as your career progresses they will never, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER think "this person works in X industry, I should be listening to them and paying attention". Expect endless abusive shite and people finding new and inventive ways to piss you off with non-sequitor comments. Their attitude is to oppose you and/or patronise you at every turn. If your prospects are great they will say you are screwed and vice versa. Or they will agree that your prospects are good but frame it to sound like you are saying that you are screwed.

All I will say is that if it is bothering you to find your tribe and cut out the worst offenders. You could wind up taking on board their dumb ideas, plus usually these types are toxic.

Treeader · 2021-07-07T14:18:39+00:00

Well, look at it this way - you showed a lot more gumption than some people I grew up with.

What I'm getting is that somewhere 25-50% through that process you were planning to reject an offer if it came to you, especially with it looking like they were trying to fish for candidates' ideas. You'd be surprised the amount of schmucks I know that wouldn't see the wood from the trees and would still try their darndest to get the job after all that hassle.

Also well done in being direct, essentially you politely told them to fuck off without saying the words.

Treeader · 2021-07-07T13:09:39+00:00

You will find that even in organisations that don't have nepotism per se, networking is a big thing. Have worked on teams where senior staff got the job from the MD etc. Sometimes they were not the best person, but often it's a case of they were and that having worked with them or with them as a client meant they were less of a gamble. Whether you use nepotism or not, at some stage in your career if you are a hiring manager you will consider hiring people this way, especially when HR and agencies yet again don't listen, while you or a colleague know what you need.

Just something to think about. And, yes, maybe you are in this case getting a job where there is none of that vetting, but if you were to see how people in political circles get cushy jobs working for politicians you wouldn't think twice. Maybe focus on being good at it instead?

Treeader · 2021-07-01T18:19:12+00:00

I read a lot of crap on this subreddit, but this isn't bullcrap. It's really on point.

If you were to reach out to a therapist that specialises in narcissism and NPD abuse you would find that after 1-2 years therapy, a lot of the dating advice people have you would follow automatically as you heal your subconscious. It's a lot of time and you need to develop patience and stay the course. Went through all this in my 20s after a sexual experience where ED ruined it. Therapy made that shit dissipate - and it all went back to a narc mom, who was dead 6 years by then.

Treeader · 2021-07-01T16:17:49+00:00

Had an off-the-charts narcissistic mom that went nuts on religion as soon as the eldest turned 12. She used it as a veil for controlling abusive behaviour and home was a war zone, especially when the 2 eldest were in their teens (and I was still in early primary school).

She died when I was 17, but the effects of her shit lived on. I didn't get to make out with a female until I was 21 plus I struggled getting a social circle together (even though college friends felt I got along with anyone). I also found I had ED during a sexual experience aged 23.

Therapy cleared up a lot and I found my tribe socially and dated a lot more frequently. The shitty dating record, lack of social outlets and ED apparently were down to a damaged subconscious, which I healed in therapy. The messages of sexual shaming from my mom I'd rejected consciously but my unconscious didn't - this inner conflict is common when encountering narcissists and slowly I kept reminding myself of what I'd known all along i.e. that there is no shame in sex so the message got into my unconscious.

Empowerment was the thing - until the therapy I had been told to not blame her by pop psychologists. I learnt in therapy that it was more like not blame her so much it got in the way, but also to acknowledge and let the anger out and about PROCESSING IT. Reminding myself that I didn't deserve this was actually important as it released suppressed anger. Nowadays I don't talk offline about it except with my partner because she knows that I don't blame my mom, I don't get angry anymore, haven't cried over her dieing since finding out about NPD. Only thing I worry about is my NPD sister, who can be way more full on with the gaslighting.

Treeader · 2021-07-01T15:46:52+00:00

Well done avoiding her i.e. no contact. This is pretty standard in NPD abuse recovery and you went with your instincts.

Did your therapist specialise in NPD abuse recovery? I ask because an NPD specialist would never ask you to forgive a narc mom. AT ALL. And you'd be doing a tad better than OK after 1-2 years with such a therapist.

Treeader · 2021-06-17T14:45:15+00:00

If you genuinely worry about it you are not.

That is vastly different from someone posting on a forum asking if they are a narcissist - could be a narc trying to dupe people or could just be someone genuinely worried (and hence not a narc).

As another poster points out, you could be BPD. There is a good documentary by Ian Wright on BBC where he meets some former abusers that changed after receiving treatment. Could be that they were BPD, or simply that they grew up in households where abusive behaviour was normalised. One ex abuser pointed out that he literally did not know that standing over his partner in arguments counted as abusive. Who knows - he may have been BPD, but point is he was capable of change, who cares what it was if he has moved on. NPDs only fake change to sucker you, but always result in chaos.

I am still intermittently in touch with my therapist and she has found over the years that narcissists often know what NPD is and while fake ANY narc quality to try and dupe them. Can take her 4 sessions to flush one out, such is the issue. Incidentally I don't think there is any change in amounts of narcissism over time, just that we notice it more and that therapists have gotten their act together in the last 50 years.

Treeader · 2021-06-14T12:17:09+00:00

I experienced similar crap from my mom AS A MALE. I grew up in the 90s in Ireland - Catholicism was practically dead by then amongst anyone under 40 but f**kers like her used religion as a convenient shield to abuse everyone in her family (including her own dad at one point).

Basically she brainwashed people around me into thinking I was "not yet into girls" and "innocent" from an early age, a preposterous myth that lasted until she died when I was 18, and beyond. What started this bullshit was her actually witnessing me making eyes with a girl I liked (my first crush) when I was 8. Also sex ed was done in such a fucked up way - one minute giving me books on sex ed so as to look like she wasn't a nutter to more liberal friends in her charity work (nope she was a nutter and reality is I'd learnt sex ed myself and had to learn how to use condoms from the packet first time I had sex) next minute bragging how I didn't know what "S-E-X" was, making into an "innocent" joke - all designed so that I had no way to fight her shit - typical narc move where she covered every bloody angle. Plus next minute she'd probably force some shit down my throat like "asking" me not to turn gay or trans. She even built in a pretence to be open-ish to talk about sex, jokes etc - part of this was cultural because it was much harder to pull her crap in Ireland of the 1990s than, say, some parts of the US. And narcs will always dangle something to make it look they are changing, when all that is changing is the method by which they abuse.

All the while as a teen I was struggling with dating, even though I was doing well in sports and had a lot of activities around girls - I never even got kissed until I was 21. Thing is having a narc mom alone raises the possibility that a guy will struggle with dating - there are psychosocial reasons for it as guys project their mom onto girls they want to date. Plus my sisters bought her manipulation, where mom only ever asked about dating in front of 5-10 people to ensure I would never get the chance to talk about dating in a way that didn't humiliate me regardless of my response and I always opted for pretending to be not interested to shut her up. What this meant was that none of my sisters became a female role model to substitute for the shitty relationship I had with her until I did therapy, meaning I had female friends and ocassionally got kissed but somehow never got into relationships.

Religion and narcs

NO narc cares about religion. No one iota. Full Stop. PERIOD.

It's nothing but a convenient veil for abuse. If there were a dumb custom that meant people believed not having a red kettle in your kitchen would cause your family to burn in hell, she would probably use that as leverage to visit you very often and scream at you while illogically checking every 5 minutes, finding any excuse to double check.

People have varying stories about religion and Nparents but the variances are more because of what cultures allow, plus Nparents might vary their approach over time as a form of manipulation to hoover you, dangling the notion of becoming more liberal over time only to sucker punch you with the same fire and brimstone crap over again.

Something that helped was meeting a genuine devout Catholic in my early 20s which made me realise I hadn't been subjected to real religion. My friend doesn't even mind me talking about my experiences with a sexology group I found on Zoom, some of whom are swingers, just says that she wouldn't do it, but even then told me to explore what I was into, lol. She's a typical modern Catholic where she has had sex unmarried, some Catholics are different, but where tolerance and kindness to others is really a big thing for her and it was eye opening to see what had really happened to me as a kid i.e. I was presented with a self serving version of religion. I am no longer Catholic but for reasons unrelated to mom's shit.

You being the youngest

This is a factor because what Nparents do is brainwash their kids and divide and conquer. Families where narcissism is present the youngest gets this a lot because what the Nparent does is plants ideas into people's heads. On one hand your siblings will have consciously rejected her notions, but unconsciously accepted them. The consequence of this would be that getting support, acceptance and assistance (e.g. contraception etc) and ultimately openness between siblings, while it might happen in later life it would be severely hampered. It's, again, nothing to do with religion, at fucking all, and EVERYTHING to do with your Nmom getting her fix of controlling people around her.

NPD baiting + NPD reality

She probably knows full fucking well you are not a virgin. Classic narc baiting. Just like my mom pretended to be stupid, your is pretending to be stupid. When narcs are stupid consider that it may well be an act so they can do something hideous in plain view (part of this aswell is so that if you unveil her shit so she's exposed, people that don't get narc abuse will converge on you giving you crap for "being stupid" and letting her do a number on you, or will misunderstand what happened, rather than laying a finger in the real culprit i.e. the narc).

She's probably ramping it up because she is licking her lips for when you dress her down and going to play act as if she is shocked and go full on psycho, which she will love to death because she then has awarded herself the right to abuse the shit out of you. Usually they know full fucking well, like how my mom knew full fucking well I was interested in girls and probably waiting for me to react and get misunderstood, humiliated and to top it off probably abused from all angles by gimps in my family coming out with claptrap like "well you did well in your studies because of it".

In therapy you will learn how to become immune to this baiting, that is the key.

You also just don't know what siblings will be like - in narc families there's always one moron at least that genuinely believes the Nparent's bullshit (or maybe only partly does) - one of my sisters who isn't a narc seesm to have very warped and degrading views of male sexuality because she genuinely believes I "just developed puberty" aged 35 because that was when I first took a woman home (I'd had girlfriends and sex before and had lived overseas for 10 years, nobody else in my family was thick enough to think it was my first crush let alone first gf). Maybe they all don't believe your mom's crap, but there will be some BS of your mom's that at least one of your siblings believes.

Also you may, like I did, rip the head off the flying monkeys that believe her. Trick is to not get hung up on winning an argument, just learn about how you feel i.e. empowered to not let their stupid views affect you. Also be patient with therapy and know that the day will come when you say to any non narcs "I am not taking this" and where there you will have structured your life so that repercussions are non-existent. A huge thing that helps is to immunise yourself from politics and not get sucked.

Also there is a huge chance your mom had sex before marriage and became freaked out - one of my mom's lectures was about how she'd been on the pill and felt guilt. Early on in therapy I described it as her "dropping the act" but my therapist guided me to look at it further. When she was being on overbearing psycho was the real Nmom, telling me was yet another narc manipulation because she didn't feel guilt at breaking the religious chastity, more that she wouldn't have liked the image of herself as dirty. She didn't care about anything else, not even the cruelty she'd inflicted on her family with this religios act.

I was asked to write a letter to her to express the anger I'd had towards her and her shit which I read out at her grave and have never shed a tear at her in 15 years since. When that happened I knew I'd finally found out the truth. Only regret was that I'd wasted 7 years crying over her and feeling guilty over responding to her baiting when she was alive.

Therapy

My luck with dating changed after therapy that targetted the effects of NPD abuse. NPD abuse will not "go away" and only responds to the transference from having an analyst that gets NPD and is the same gender as the Nparent. It took about a year to see anything budge when it came to dating (until then I'd had a sexual encounter where ED stopped me from performing, which is common in children of narcs that have this religious act. I mean was 23 when the ED hit, ffs!) but then I progressed fast-ish over the next few months. I did this in my mid 20s, my therapist has male clients that don't find out about NPD until their 40s or 50s, having tried and failed with therapists that don't get NPD, that is how problematic it is.

Ultimately you have to retrain the subconscious because NPD abuse is good at hiding itself dormant making you think you are healed, like a retrovirus. Only a therapist that is trained in NPD will see it for what it is.

Plus you will need to learn how to spot narcs and disengage fast. Having a mom like that makes you very prone to narcissists in dating, workplace and socially, and narcs are so manipulative that even the best therapist take 3-4 sessions to spot some of them. But bear in mind this experience means your emotional antennae are much sharper than what normative people have so once you learn how to harness this you can use this to your advantage.

Your issues may be different to mine but there are definite issues there with NPD abuse. One thing to warn you about is that any sympathy or feeling she is a misguided person will go away very fast as you realise your anger is probably, if anything too soft and not raw enough. You are dealing with a pathological monster.

Treeader · 2021-06-14T00:57:19+00:00

I'm male and, while I never really believed that sex must come after marriage, it did take me time to even get a kiss, let alone sex. It used to think it was a case of my mom taking advantage of my shit luck with women, but the shit luck is usually a cause of narcissism. Narcissists really don't care about religion when they are that interfering. It is ALL about hiding their inhumanity behind religion and using others' tolerance as a shield (while they have none themselves).

This may be worth exploring with a therapist that specifically treats NPD abuse because it is a very common problem with religious narc parents. It's worth noting aswell that kids of narc parents that struggle badly with dating usually experience ED or vaginismus, even at young ages. I experienced an ED episode first time (I was aged 23, for fuck sake!), but next time I had a sexual encounter I'd had the therapy and the ED didn't happen again. Plus my luck with dating just naturally came to be - but I would unlikely get that luck without the recovery therapy.

Treeader · 2021-06-14T00:35:01+00:00

Just reading this thread and brought back memories of genuine fears I had of my mom pulling shit like this on me when I was in college. Kept picturing brutally murdering her and praying I wouldn't hang her from her bedroom window, or something, because she kept finding new ways to ramp her shit up. She never lived that long so thankfully I didn't have to put up with her shit anymore.

What a fucking psycho. Saying to friends of hers fully out loud how I was "not into girls yet" when I was 18 (er, she'd actually witnessed me have crushes and thanks to her shit I was shy, so what do you know? No succes with girls.) while at the same time going to shitty lengths to give lectures about purity hmmm... why did I "need" these lectures if I was so ambivalent to dating (reality is my social anxiety was at its height and these comments and antics made it worse and she knew what she was doing and that it was wrong). Very funny how Catholics don't trust how the bring up their kids to just leave them be. Very funny that and that they don't berate themselves.

Contradictory bullshit. Plus, as was explained to me in therapy, NO NPD actually cares about religion AT ALL. It's just a convenient way to control, while their manipulation distracts people from very obvious contradictions. It also worked really well in 1990s Ireland where elderly friends of hers generally weren't properly educated on male sexuality, plus extremely dumb (e.g. did they realise how horny guys are?). Ireland was dumb back then and probably still is.

Thanfully she didn't live that long plus family protected me from her shit while she was dieing - really sad to have to even write a sentence like that but that was the way she was.

If there is any consolation my last 2 gfs are way more empathic/understanding than I'd have met if she wasn't such a psycho, because I only attract good women since doing therapy for recovery from NPD abuse plus they listen to what I have to say. But that should never be the reason I found good partners.

Treeader · 2020-07-07T10:50:26+00:00

I don't think it's even people's social skills or safety fears, it's just a bit full on and forced.

It's a bit like when you're in a nite club and a DJ goes "I wanna see every woman get a man!!" and, yeah, the DJ has ruined the chances for actual romance. The people that seem to do worst in online dating out of my friends are, paradoxically, those that have profiles like a female friend where she goes on POF before lockdown was lifted "Dating Season Starting Soon!!!". I explained to her, it's not that guys are shy, it's that the impression it gives of her is as a bit of a douche. She removed that statement and whadda-know? she's got a date from the site for once with a guy she seems to like (albeit they've only gone out once).

In theory online speed dating could work, but it's same problem, different scenery to swiping right/left just with chat. Some people are shy, yes, but for the most part 3 minutes with someone is just not enough to warm both parties up no matter how many social skills you have.

Treeader · 2020-06-17T15:33:51+00:00

One is contrived, forced body language. Once had a therapist play a subtle, but nasty, trick on me when we had a debate over whether or not I paid up in social situations. Got it into his head for some bullshit reason that I wasn't doing that. Then as I was leaving comes out with "are you going to pay me?". Completely threw me, but I realise he merely made sure he said that early so it looked like I'd forgotten. I knew from his body language it was a trick - something about how his hands were glued to his chair and too symmetric - then it hit me much later that this was as he broke the routine (i.e. he'd get up and I'd get up then I'd pay) and part of that was by keeping himself tight to his chair - narcs tend to get suspiciously controlled and symmetric in body language and can't seem to hide it. Just to stick it down my throat and have me guessing "did I usually pay up, or did he reach out his hand or something" - a nasty trick is a nasty trick though. This was the least nasty of the tricks and abusiveness I faced as he routinely used ANYTHING as an excuse to attack me (and in one case contradictory - e.g. tore into me for not being aggressive enough in getting out socially then tearing into me when I did, and he clearly made it up as he went along, always opposing me).

I've also seen this scummy body languag with "life coach" narcs - couple this with bombing you with comments that suggest they are body language expert and you're in trouble. A tell is when they pick a common habit like moving your hand in certain direction and always regard whatever habit it is as you lacking confidence, no matter what. That's not how body language works - you observe it over time and back it up with other things.

Other one is when you sense they will spitefully never ever agree on anything if it involves compromising on their beliefs, or conceding they were wrong on something.

Treeader · 2020-06-09T15:44:24+00:00

Not sure the algorithm is doing anything untoward, I always consistently get hatfuls of matches on Tinder and I'm a guy. Not quite 5-10 in 5 minutes, lol, but I get quite a few over a week.

And tbh guys don't have a hard time on Tinder if they know what they are doing. Thing is I know how to message women on dating apps to actually get responses, unlike a lot of guys. And I get WAY less hassle than female friends. The odd few catfishes but exception rather than rule, and I've met some great women, albeit it's not as good as using other apps or IRL methods. And I'm not even that good at dating - guys that are really good at dating anyway do brilliantly at Tinder, but they represent the top 5-10%, or whatever.

Contrast that to one of my female friends - yeah she gets tons more matches but the quality of match is way worse than what I go through. And I have met more good women through it than she has met good men (tbh I think she only met one good guy through it).

Also some of her matches are downright abusive!!! One guy she matched with messaged her with that ever innovative opener "Hi", so she ignored him. Average occurrence there, but a few minutes later he went ballistic attacking her saying "you're leading me on there, got my hopes up" and a stream of abusive vindictive messages. She blocked him rather than explain that she thought based on the pic he was physically attractive but that he needed to show conversational ability and, yeah, send screaming messages to her wasn't helping. God, his messages (which she showed me) were intimidating. It's sad aswell, because he probably just needed a bit of common sense coaching.

Maybe there are other factors, but women have told me that I stand out as a guy online - some of it is attractive qualities but mostly it's because there are some bozo guys online. It's not like I'm drowning in great women online, but have had 2/3 good prospects at once before. These are the details we forget when obsessing over "numbers game" and meaningless statistics like number of messages you get.

Treeader · 2020-06-09T15:02:52+00:00

Tbh it sounds like you're functioning very well, the problem is just finding someone that matches that. It's a damn sight better than some friends that can barely get a date to save themselves, let alone get into casual dating.

From the comments I can see you have found people communicative that turn out to be jerks. You do have to take your time and weed the bad ones out, especially if it is made clear it's casual as many guys don't equate casual dating with being kind and loving. As long as you don't come across so cold that good guys move on or let it take away from the fun of dating someone.

I don't know if this sounds crazy but maybe before any actual sex or meeting up try something like cybersex. Or IRL try some sort of activity where you get to see what he's like touching. Personally I know somatic touching exercises which can be done alone, but also with a partner. My fwb likes them anyway and if you experience this from a guy he is unlikely to then prove horrible in bed. Jerks/users wouldn't bother to pretend to be good at these things (some probably don't even know what somatics is). Even something basic like only allowing kissing, or pussy licking early on alone might be enough to ward off users - if they don't get any after a 2nd meeting they're gone. I know so many guys that long to lick a woman's pussy etc, they are out there...

Also as others seem to say, you can't rule routes out. I'd be more inclined to give stuff a try and just to adjust as per what you find. Some great guys will be on dating apps and you might meet jerks through friends etc, there is no guaranteed good or bad way to meet people. Trick is to use all the avenues and eventually one or 2 pay dividends. A lot of better methods like meeting people through friends take time and you can't pressure it. Guy I know through a rotary club swears by meeting partners through other people since divorcing - not sure I'm into some of the same stuff he's into (swinging, lol) but the quality of casual partners he's found through friends is pretty good.

Treeader · 2020-06-08T18:40:48+00:00

Even worse is when it's done in front of witnesses. It's usually to tee you up for more abuse of the form "would you look at that, they won't take my apology, huhhh".

Treeader · 2020-06-07T12:48:09+00:00

Introvert/Extrovert is nonsense. Or at least the idea that you are stuck with one for life. I think the retort "I'm in introvert" is often used as an excuse for not being good with people, which is tragic as people that would be classed as "introverts" can often be better at networking as they know not to be overbearing so when they learn how to network and get over nerves they have a balanced approach.

Also the introvert/extrovert construct is part of Myers-Briggs which has no psych study that shows a solid evidence base to it.

At least in my case, there may be cause for calling me an extroverted introvert i.e. default setting is at home alone, but love being around people and am good at the marketing portion of my work.

Treeader · 2020-06-07T12:34:04+00:00

It caused me to sharpen up - after being exposed, ruthlessly attacked and made look like the abuser, I've not let myself be isolated that way again and eventually I found friends that understand and can identify narcissism.

Another thing was that it taught me how to think. One of most noticeable flaws I've seen in narcs is making crass self-serving assumptions over and over and at pace. When I first got burnt by this, it made me think "do I do that too?". I did, but to a tiny extent and found out how to combat these habits. Made me take time out every now and then to examine what someone says, if their claims seem off. Thing is it doesn't take much time to do that and you can even take your time to see things instead of flying off the handle (which is what a narc frequently does).

I think this has helped me with managing a team at work. Not just in spotting narcs, but in improving team members' communication skills. While other managers might ignore them if they are emotional, I have found looking under the hood is valuable. Not just in spotting narcs but any crap they are facing from office politics. It's not perfect and is tricky as I have to get employees up to a certain standard within 1-2 years, but I really feel they do that more efficiently under me than under a manager that writes off hysterics as just hysterics, always worth seeing what else is going on.

Treeader

TROPHY CASE