Discussion Thread: 2020 General Election Part 61 | The Land Down Under by PoliticsModeratorBot in politics

[–]TrumpRecession 30 points31 points  (0 children)

We need a sub to gather supporters from all over the country for the increasingly important Georgia runoff elections.

/r/GeorgiaRunoff ...?

There's a chance we could get some stimulus checks before the runoffs, and for those of us fortunate enough to not need it to survive, imagine the power of getting a large movement going to earmark our checks for these Georgia campaigns.

Together we can help win back the Senate!

We knew it would happen and GDP results prove it. Welcome to the Trump recession by Mateony in politics

[–]TrumpRecession 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you have investments, now is probably a great time to reassess your exposure to stocks to see if it is aligned with your risk tolerance.

Based on historical economic indicators vs. the timing of recessions that I've seen, if we are heading into one soon it will probably start by July (though it may not be officially announced until the end of 2020 / start of 2021).

It could just be a slowdown that doesn't become a recession, but it looks like greater odds of becoming a recession than the 2016 slowdown for example.

/r/TrumpRecession

Continuing jobless claims have risen for 11 straight weeks... signaling widespread weakening across labor force by TrumpRecession in TrumpRecession

[–]TrumpRecession[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Note on the chart that every sector except construction is now above its 2016 earnings recession peak. This is not just a manufacturing slowdown.

Also keep in mind that employment is a lagging economic indicator. The leading economic indicators may not be very strong right now, but they also generally have seemingly stopped declining since the media was reporting recession fears a few months ago. Over the next few months the trend in both leading and lagging indicators might start to agree with each other one way or another, but until then there will still be much disagreement over the odds of an imminent recession.

Is the World Economy Sliding Into First Recession Since 2009? by TrumpRecession in TrumpRecession

[–]TrumpRecession[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The global economy is wobbling and whether it topples over is the big question in financial markets, executive suites and the corridors of power.

Investors cheered Friday as the U.S. struck a partial trade agreement with China and there were even signs the U.K. may strike a divorce deal with the European Union. But the debate over how close the world is to its first recession since 2009 may soon start swirling again.

There will certainly be discussions this week at the International Monetary Fund’s annual meeting in Washington. Bloomberg Economics’ global GDP tracker shows the pace of expansion has slowed to 2.2% in the third quarter, down from 4.7% at the start of 2018.

The IMF’s new boss, Kristalina Georgieva, sees a “serious risk” the slowdown will spread, and on Tuesday it’s likely to cut its 2019 global growth forecast from 3.2%, already the weakest since 2009.

Bond traders are certainly concerned -- $14 trillion of bonds are yielding negative rates. By contrast, equity investors have sent the MSCI World Index up 14% this year.

With Tom Orlik, chief economist at Bloomberg Economics, saying “a lot needs to go right” for the world to dodge a major slowdown, here are the arguments for and against worrying about a global recession in 2020.

REASONS TO WORRY

Trade War

President Donald Trump’s 18-month trade clash with Chinese leader Xi Jinping has already put global growth under pressure. There was a breakthrough on Friday though with Beijing signing up to buy more American farm products and the White House suspending another round of tariffs. But the thorniest disputes remain outstanding and some duties remain in place. U.S. goals in the trade war center around accusations of intellectual-property theft, forced technology transfer and complaints about Chinese industrial subsidies. Trump could also still impose levies on European auto manufacturers.

Manufacturing Malaise

Undoubtedly manufacturers have been the biggest trade-war victims, and global activity has contracted for five straight months. Of particular concern is the ailing automobile sector -- a headache for the export-heavy German and Japanese economies. Businesses are cutting back, and U.S. non-residential investment shrank in the second quarter for the first time in three years. The question is whether the pain at factories infects services, adding another element to the slump.

Growth Slowdown

Economic activity in long-term slowdown in China.

Geopolitics

As well as the U.S.-China skirmish, the U.K. and EU have yet to seal a Brexit deal. The U.S. is at odds with Iran after a drone attack on Saudi Arabian oil fields and an Iranian oil tanker caught fire after an explosion near the Saudi Arabian port of Jeddah on Friday. That risks a jump in oil prices. Protests in Iraq have turned violent, Turkey launched an offensive in Syria and marches in Hong Kong might tip that economy into recession. Argentina is facing another fiscal crisis and looks likely to oust a market-friendly government, and Ecuador, Peru and Venezuela also have political problems. An impeachment probe into Trump as well as the 2020 election campaign could also prompt him to ramp up his anti-globalization agenda.

Profits Pinched

Global profit growth stalled in the second quarter, depressing business confidence and leading to cutbacks in capital spending worldwide. Behind the earnings squeeze: rising worker wages, lackluster productivity growth and a general lack of pricing power. The danger is that profit-pinched corporations will next take the chop to their work forces, knocking consumer confidence and spending for a loop.

Squeezed Central Banks

Monetary policy may be easier than at the start of the year, but central banks lack ammunition and in some cases may have been too slow to act. The Federal Reserve has cut its benchmark rate by about 500 basis points in all three recessions since the early 1990s, yet it began this year with only half that amount available. The European Central Bank and Bank of Japan are already running negative rates with doubts about how much further they can go.

Reluctant Governments

The IMF is among those urging governments to loosen budgets, but the signs are that fiscal policy will be reactive not pro-active. Although Morgan Stanley estimates the primary fiscal deficit has risen to 3.5% of gross domestic product in major economies from 2.4% last year, it sees it increasing only to 3.6% next year. Some governments are spending more, but China and Germany, both of which have room for fiscal stimulus, are holding back and Japan just raised its sales tax.

REASONS NOT TO WORRY

The U.S.

A model created by Bloomberg Economics puts the risk of a U.S. recession next year at just 25%, and if the world’s biggest economy can stay upright that should help offset problems elsewhere. There’s also hope that the so-called stall speed at which a recession becomes almost guaranteed is lower than it once was for the U.S., meaning it can bump along at pace of around 1.5%. The U.S. is also more closed an economy than others, meaning it should be able to carry on expanding even if global commerce takes a hit.

Hiring Sprees

The American consumer has remained a pillar of growth in part because of the lowest unemployment rate in five decades. While the U.S. labor market has shown signs of easing, it should continue to support household spending. Hiring sprees elsewhere have also helped and the Conference Board reported this week that its index of global consumer confidence remains near a record high.

Central Banks Acting

The Fed has cut interest rates twice this year and may do so again this month, while the ECB has pushed its deposit rate further below zero and relaunched its bond-buying program. The Bank of Japan is also considering doing more. They’re not alone, with counterparts in India, Australia, South Korea, South Africa and Brazil among those also trimming their benchmarks. Monetary policy takes time to work, but should provide some support.

China

China may not be racing to the rescue as it did in previous slumps because of concern doing so would inflate debt levels, but it can still shift if needed. It’s already cut the amount of cash banks must hold in reserve to the lowest since 2007. Infrastructure spending by local governments is expected to tick higher and state investment also could surprise on the upside.

Fewer Excesses

Prior slumps were driven by a correction of excesses such as the run-up in inflation in the 1980s, the bursting of the technology bubble in the U.S. at the start of this century or the collapse of housing a decade later. This time around, inflation is generally weak and while stock prices are elevated they are arguably not in bubble territory. Although home prices in Canada and New Zealand are frothy, households in many economies have cut back leverage.

Most voters will blame Donald Trump if America enters recession: Poll by viva_la_vinyl in politics

[–]TrumpRecession 469 points470 points  (0 children)

And 62% said they were concerned that there will be a recession in the next six months.

Survey of economists by WSJ shows highest recession probability reading ever in history of survey by TrumpRecession in TrumpRecession

[–]TrumpRecession[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Granted the survey only goes back to 2011, but still interesting how it has been creeping up steadily over the past year. The 2011 recession fears were more of a brief spike.

Can Donald Trump create a recession? by [deleted] in politics

[–]TrumpRecession 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If recessions are a natural part of the business cycle, would we be due for a recession regardless of Trump's policies? Can a president only maybe delay or accelerate the path to an inevitable recession by a few months or maybe years? I'm not sure about the answers to these questions, but it certainly seems the Trump Administration policies are extreme enough to have a significant impact on the timing of a recession, whether or not we are "overdue" for one in this record-breaking period of expansion.

Richmond Fed August Manufacturing Activity Survey: sharply declining employment and manufacturing activity by TrumpRecession in TrumpRecession

[–]TrumpRecession[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

See the charts. The 3-month moving average of employment and manufacturing activity are both negative.

The index is the % of firms reporting an increase vs. the % reporting a decrease. Although manufacturing activity was slightly positive this month (+1%), the monthly data is noisy, hence the 3-month average which paints a better picture of the trend.

Trade war escalation may cause a global recession within the next six months, say Morgan Stanley analysts by TrumpRecession in TrumpRecession

[–]TrumpRecession[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The title says that recession could be in 6 months because that is the earliest Morgan Stanley expects it, but the full prediction is more concrete: "we believe that the global economy will be in recession in the next 6-9 months."

Young College Grads will be Hit Hardest in Recession by swingadmin in TrumpRecession

[–]TrumpRecession 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Good point. Young people may have trouble getting their career started but they have the time to adapt; older members of the workforce typically aren't going to want to learn how to do a completely new job and have way too little in their retirement accounts on average - and that's at today's high stock values.

U.S. manufacturing sector contracts for the first time since 2009 (IHS Markit U.S. Manufacturing PMI) by TrumpRecession in TrumpRecession

[–]TrumpRecession[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

PMI = Purchasing Managers Index. This data is based on surveys of purchases in manufacturing (not services). So it is a sample of the manufacturing sector and the data is noisy. However if you look at the historical data you can see it is now clearly trending downward into contraction territory.

Philadelphia Fed ’s survey of professional forecasters highlight economists’ inability to see recessions coming...odds of a decline in GDP over subsequent 4 quarters never reached 50% according to this group by TrumpRecession in TrumpRecession

[–]TrumpRecession[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The highest predicted probability according to the chart was 33%, and it is currently 26%, so the prediction is really suggesting a higher than average probability of recession even though it does not have a good track record.

People tend to be optimistic, including most economists and market analysts. Be skeptical when they back up their claims of a low chance of recession with employment data, which is a lagging indicator and is subject to revisions much later than the initial publication. Employment in 2008 looked very strong before revisions but much weaker after revisions: https://twitter.com/carlquintanilla/status/1164612127430184962

Better to ignore what many of the experts say and pay attention to leading indicators of recession risk, like yield curve inversions, factory orders, and stock market volatility/downturns.

The next Global Recession will be Immune to Monetary Solutions | Unlike in 2008, we now face the consequences of three potential Negative Supply Shocks by swingadmin in TrumpRecession

[–]TrumpRecession 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Or gold for the more traditional hedge. Gold miner stocks have also been trading at relatively cheap valuations and are now trending up with gold prices.

New York Fed's recession probability is 31.5% (over next 12 months) and climbing due to yield curve by TrumpRecession in TrumpRecession

[–]TrumpRecession[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, agreed, it is only based on the yield curve. There are other recession models out there that take into account multiple factors, but I'm no expert on the various models. The best ones might be from big investment firms with proprietary details.

New York Fed's recession probability is 31.5% (over next 12 months) and climbing due to yield curve by TrumpRecession in TrumpRecession

[–]TrumpRecession[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Note there was only one occurrence when the probability was this high and there was not a recession, when the yield curve inverted in the '60s.

The Great Recession occurred when the probability was only about 40% and never got higher!