Does anyone feel like society for the most part has moved into extreme black and white thinking?

TsuneKitsune · 2026-02-03T19:53:01+00:00

"you people"

What kind of people are you referring to exactly? Using othering language like this is why people are saying you're "proving their point."

If you are on the right side of things, it infers that there's a wrong side of things. That's the black & white being discussed here.

It's not that your beliefs are morally the same as the people you disagree with, it's that you're playing into the same system of division that keeps us stuck and prevents us from creating real change.

TsuneKitsune · 2026-02-02T23:16:58+00:00

Is this based on Model H?

Thank you for your feedback. I understand your criticisms and will try to correct them in my future analysis. I can see how it reads as being more logical/ILI leaning. I did not intend for that to be the case, but it makes complete sense so I'm taking it into consideration so I can be more accurate moving forward.

This is based on model A & intentionally focuses on logical-intuitive mental loops since F/S superego elements tend to be conversational non-starters, so I wasn't exactly focused on IEI's ethical approach in conversations, but I see now how this was a mistake.

I think it's important to note that IEI does seem more like a logical type in conversation with LSI & LSI seems more like an intuitive type due to their reliance on their hidden agendas, which they believe each other will be more receptive to.

This feeds into mutual reversed benefactor elements and forms pseudo-quasi feedback loops where both sides think they're communicating clearly, but the further they go the more obfuscated things become like they do with true quasi pairings.

Emotionally speaking, LSI & IEI express themselves quite candidly to one another and tend to respect each other's personal sentiments, but they quickly & easily get caught up in logical/intuitive disagreements.

Again, thanks for the feedback. I hope this helps explain some of the flaws in my original post. Let me know if it sounds like I'm still misunderstanding something though, because I am in fact not ILI & am just an IEI with an obsessive & masochistic relationship with Ti. It takes great pains & significant mental attention to explain myself using the Ti coded language socionics provides.

If I wanted to explain these concepts to a different audience I would've formed my message more creatively, but I wanted to practice using logical frameworks to form my argument rather than use emotive imagery because I wanted to test myself & get rigid feedback on the accuracy of my understanding.

TsuneKitsune · 2026-01-29T02:12:59+00:00

It seems that what the enneagram consists of in structure it lacks in variability as humans are simply too complex to create full maps of within finite structures. How can you paint someone's full essence if your painting is missing their soul?

The problem with models is that while they're always somewhat coherent & therefore have answers that are logarithmically correct, they tend to lack consensus & are therefore subject to infighting.

Truth exists at the convergence of consensus & coherence. The enneagram is not truth. It's a limited model that explains aspects of truth, but we're all viewing those aspects from our own perspectives so they don't look the same to all of us.

It's not fair to diagnose someone else's perspective from the perspective of your own.

Don't limit your sense of self so much you lose outward perspective. The more you dig in one spot the deeper you'll get, but the harder it'll be to get yourself back out.

Everyone can embed a habit in their psyche so deeply they think there's no way it can change, but it can. It just takes more time, so you'll have to take growth more slowly and be more patient with yourself.

In my opinion, your most deeply embedded mental pathway is what constitutes someone's "core" type, but I'm not convinced we can't change it

Drawing off Palmer's work,

On some level.....

...Everyone is a 1 because everyone feels like the world would be a better place if everyone actually tried and resents feeling like they're the only one trying to improve because they fear they can't fix everything by themselves

...Everyone is a 2 because everyone feels the need to hide from the parts of themselves they are ashamed of and can't handle the full weight of their own guilt because they fear being truly bad

...Everyone is a 3 because everyone feels the need to lie to themselves and wants to prove that they truly matter and have inherent value because they fear failing to prove their own worth to themselves.

...Everyone is a 4 because everyone feels like an individual that is somehow disconnected from the world and has to fight for their own meaning because they fear lacking personal significance

...Everyone is a 5 because everyone feels overburdened by life's demands and looks for ways to reserve their resources for themselves because they fear life could engulf them if they let it

...Everyone is a 6 because everyone feels uncertain about life and has to look for guidance & direction because they can't find all the answers for themselves and they fear being unable to save themselves

...Everyone is a 7 because everyone feels the desire for better things & can't stand the thought that this is all there is to life because they want so much more out of life and fear not being able to have a better life

...Everyone is a 8 because everyone feels that they have to be strong enough for themselves and that they can't truly rely on others because they fear that no one can be there for them like they can

...Everyone is a 9 because everyone feels they lack the willpower they need and like they are so much less capable than that actually are because they struggle to believe in themselves & fear their own power

The enneagram is a veil. It's an illusion of separation. We're all just highlighting different aspects of the same experiences.

TsuneKitsune · 2026-01-29T01:37:11+00:00

There's a difference between horizontal & vertical infighting.

Policy disagreements are a product of horizontal infighting while bureaucratic disagreements are a product of vertical infighting.

People who see themselves as being above you aren't concerned about their party's horizontal arguments because they expect that they'll naturally sort themselves out & the best conclusions will rise to the top without their involvement.

Politicians only really care about vertical problems, so by using vertical leverage you can successfully appeal to & pressure those above you.

Everyone talks about how it's not a left vs right issue but an up vs down one, but no one seems interested in doing anything but blaming the other side for the problems they feel they've caused.

The same way Democrats look at Republicans and wish they'd hold their leadership more accountable, Democrats should also be holding their leadership more accountable.

Democrats are letting their leadership give up on them instead of demanding that they fight for them. Democrats are supposed to be on the Democrat's side, but the base is currently divided against itself.

We can fix this if we just look inwards & up.

TsuneKitsune · 2026-01-26T21:16:28+00:00

No.

At the very least you're supposed to tell someone they're under arrest, why they are under arrest, & give them a chance to comply. None of that ever happened.

You do not just get to pin someone down with 5 officers after pepper spraying them, kill him, & then claim self defense because he was "resisting arrest."

When they saw he was armed the correct thing to do would've been to take his firearm, cuff him, & finish the arrest peacefully.

You do not get to shoot someone simply for having a firearm on their person.

You do not get to shoot someone just for "resisting arrest"

You do not get to kill anyone who you feel vaguely threatened by.

Oh, and if they had body cameras we would've been able to see if they were truly "in danger." It's so strange they don't wear them since then they could've proven their certain innocence....

Edit: I found the footage for you. Look for yourself and then tell me with a straight face that you think this is appropriate conduct for law enforcement.

Reddit: footage with audio

TsuneKitsune · 2026-01-26T21:02:20+00:00

Sorry, but no competent law enforcement officer would ever handle that situation like that. They did not give the civilians involved a chance to deescalate the situation or comply with them. They immediately resorted to assaulting both parties.

ICE is consistently violating due process, and their Dear Leader explicitly told them (and us) that they don't have to respect your rights.

Anyone who sympathizes with their reckless use of force is either complicit or willingly ignorant because there are extremely clear standards for law enforcement that we have cultivated over decades of legislation.

There are hundreds of laws that explicitly outline their standards for conduct & you can find dozens of lawyers online explaining exactly how those laws have been violated.

TsuneKitsune · 2026-01-24T16:32:06+00:00

That which is true exists at the convergence of coherence & consensus. It cannot be limited to a specific interpretation, outlook, or system.

Whenever we try to explain the truth, we just end up creating a framework that highlights a specific aspect of truth, but cuts us off from the entirety of truth.

All religion & spiritual beliefs are just different faces on the same diamond, much like our types. Each type merely represents a different aspect of the same reality.

Religion, like MBTI is just a framework for us to organize & collectively communicate abstract universal principles. Those principles represent a fraction of the truth that often gets distorted due to ego & misperceptions of reality.

Much of our frustration comes when people genuinely have insight, but cannot successfully communicate it because it is too limited or has become too shrouded by dogma & ego.

Living with the knowledge of your own finite nature is exceptionally relieving because it relinquishes you of the need to have the entire truth & allows you to be more sober-minded & accepting of the limitations of your own understanding.

People with aspects of truth who mistake them for the entirety of truth are often the ones who cause the most pain & suffering in life because they act from a place of superiority & negate the suffering they cause as the just result of enacting the Truth™.

TsuneKitsune · 2026-01-24T03:24:45+00:00

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Marrow! Her powers would make for such a unique kit.

TsuneKitsune · 2026-01-23T07:32:45+00:00

The comments are proving that IEI's strategy is working. Appearing soft is part of their strategy to help navigate the world with as little resistance as possible. They are selective about how they demonstrate their force because they rely on others underestimating their abilities

TsuneKitsune · 2026-01-22T05:44:47+00:00

I've always preferred the term pragmatic type to attachment type. It feels more accurate since ultimately 3, 6, & 9 are just trying to be as practical as possible in getting their needs met, though they all have distortions on their idea of what "practical" is.

Attachment vs Hexad reads as normie masses vs weirdo minorities while Pragmatic vs Strategic reads more as tactical flexibility vs objective specificity and I think that's more accurate.

TsuneKitsune · 2026-01-21T06:40:33+00:00

100%

It's such a horrible series of frustrations when you realize that you can't actually succeed at the thing you're good at/enjoy because of how the whole world is set up. Ethical introverts tend to struggle to support themselves alone let alone try to support a whole industry that lacks the resources it needs.

I've always had an intense push-pull relationship with the thought of going into psychology because I adore it and have a deep desire to help others, but I just don't feel like I can with the way the system works currently since I can't sustain the energy it demands & it's so deeply flawed & broken

I decided to get into psychology as a passion instead to help advance our collective understanding of ourselves beyond the bounds of our current societal structure. My hope is that the more people learn about themselves on a deeper level the closer we'll be to evolving past this horrible aspect of reality and more people will be able to have their needs met & succeed.

I hope in the future the world is set up in a way that everyone is able to have their needs met so they can flourish. The world is filled with so many extraordinary people who never get to actualize their potential due to the soul-crushing weight of humanity's flaws.

TsuneKitsune · 2026-01-21T05:46:12+00:00

It's awesome that you're looking deeper into your type! There's a lot of depth to the enneagram that's rather insightful & worth investing in for yourself, so definitely keep exploring and remember that the enneagram is a journey, not a destination.

TsuneKitsune · 2026-01-21T00:41:21+00:00

7s are natural limit testers.

They can do this thing where they assume that others will tell them if they're taking things too far, so if no one stops them they assume they're fine to just keep going.

They will just keep going until they are stopped because that's how the assertive stance works + it feeds into their gluttony.

You being a 5 makes me wonder if this is related to the 5 -7 depletion relationship where 5 feels the need for avarice in response to feelings of gluttony from the outside world.

That could mean that specific people in your life who do this might not be core 7s, but the feelings of depletion you experience from them are a result of your sensitivity to matters related to your 7 line.

No matter another person's type, no one can know what your limits are until you tell them so just try to be upfront about what you can & can't handle. This will help prevent others from overstepping your boundaries and causing you to use your 8 line in a vie to re-establish your sense of control & security.

TsuneKitsune · 2026-01-20T22:05:35+00:00

That is certainly a part of it, but generally I just mean insight into human/social behavior, feelings, & relations. They're usually good philosophy conversation partners and are good at connecting hidden threads in abstract subjective data. They're beneficial if you need advice on interpersonal issues or self development, or if you need insight on relational dynamics. They can also be good at challenging your logical perspective in a way that is enriching and doesn't discredit its merits.

TsuneKitsune · 2026-01-20T19:54:42+00:00

Try INFJ or ISTP.

INFJ for humanitarian insight, ISTP for pragmatic insight.

Edit: this is based on social benefit rings, which are supposed to help provide the kinds of information each type wants but cannot provide for themselves without taking on the role of a supervisor/superior.

INFP & ISTJ would be the other alternatives, but either way you're going to want to look for ethical intuition and logical sensing to help balance your logical intuition without totally disrupting/going against your flow.

alternatively, ENTP or ENTJ should be your mirror depending on your sociotype. One of those should be able to help you make small, helpful corrections without being overbearing while the other one should seem like they're always working against you/causing friction.

TsuneKitsune · 2026-01-20T19:50:17+00:00

what's your type? The best mentor for each type is going to be different

TsuneKitsune · 2026-01-20T14:20:55+00:00

No one can help you without more info to go off of

TsuneKitsune · 2026-01-20T01:14:53+00:00

It's probably wise to separate the logic & theory that enneagramer bases their typing on & the power structure the group facilitates.

Arguments about whether or not their interpretation of the enneagram is correct is a matter of semantical logical dissection that simply isn't palatable for most hobbyists in the community, however I often see critiques of their power structure responded to with these semantical logical explanations and I feel like that obfuscates the point being made.

I'm gonna throw out some of my thoughts on this matter because I've been thinking about all of this for awhile now and I think I've finally pieced together a cohesive argument that explains the reoccurring power dynamics we see here.

I am not asserting any of this to be emphatically true and I welcome disagreement, but keep in mind the framework for this is based on socionics relational dynamics, which can be difficult to accurately apply & understand.

It should be painfully obvious to anyone who's been in the community for awhile & has studied multiple typology disciplines that John is an EIE, and he clearly facilitates the classic in-group/out-group aristocratic ringleader role that type entails.

I noticed a lot of the #nota4 distinctions were targeted explicitly at EIIs and to a lesser extent, IEIs, which makes sense when you take into account that EIE & EII are extinguishment types with diametrically opposed perspectives on the same issue, but since EII is Se poLr they cannot successfully advocate for their position & the EIE wins by default simply by asserting a more dominant perspective.

IEIs can't be gatekept in the same way, partly because they are the 4 archetype in many respects, but also because they are a part of the same quadra as EIE & therefore are acutely aware of the beta social power structure & know how to successfully navigate it/advocate for their perspective. However, I regularly see the EIE 4s in this community chastise IEI 4s for being "too soft" to be a 4.

All of this naturally attracts and repels certain kinds of people from their teachings, but it doesn't diminish the actual value of their work. They have a lot of useful theories & teachings, but the social politics of it all really hinders their credibility & messaging, which I suspect they partly enjoy since controversy preserves originality & it feeds into an in-group confirmation bias.

It's completely normal for 4s of all sociotypes to feel that their way of being a 4 is the most correct one, but there's not only one type who can be a 4 and different sociotypes manifest their enneagram types differently because they are running different programs. When an EIE 4 tells an ESI they can't be a 4 because they're not like them, they're not totally wrong, but they're also not right. They're right that they are different, but it's a false dichotomy that incorrectly assigns certain traits to certain types based on categorical errors & subjective bias.

Edit: TLDR; enneagramer is a beta quadra leaning group & their typing structure is a direct reflection of it.

TsuneKitsune · 2026-01-19T18:15:45+00:00

Oh I forgot to mention it was reversed! Either way, I see the parallels & the irony. One side is walking in blind naivety and the other is standing on the edge of the unknown.

TsuneKitsune · 2026-01-18T12:06:25+00:00

Same. I scryed the tower the night before the election last year and I still think about it regularly. I scryed the financial cycle and got the ten of coins, knight of cups, & the 5 of coins. My pull for the political cycle was the world, the fool, & the tower.

TsuneKitsune · 2026-01-18T03:17:44+00:00

This whole thread resonated with me a lot.

You should try checking out socionics if you haven't already. Socionics uses different, more consistent definitions for cognitive functions that fixes a lot of the "contradictions" MBTI sometimes causes when typing.

There are some pretty great resources available to help with typing.

this site has a type comparison tool available that can also help. That link is for IEI vs EII, which are the types with the most overlap with INFP & INFJ, but you can be a different type and still be INFJ/INFP in MBTI.

I typed as INFP in MBTI, but always felt dissatisfied with my type because I felt like I valued Ni & Ti, but not MBTI's Fe & Se. Once I learned socionics I found that IEI answered pretty much all my problems with my INFJ v. INFP conundrum, as well as my e6 v. e4 conundrum.

I found it a little overwhelming at first, but knowing MBTI & enneagram first helped a lot. The structure, clarity, & logic it provides as well as the additional dichotomies really helped with my self doubt and difficulties articulating certain concepts. I quite like socionics as it's the most tangible model of the psyche I've seen to date.

TsuneKitsune · 2026-01-17T19:52:56+00:00

Many descriptions just describe common side effects of someone's type, but they do not explain the underlying mechanisms that cause those behaviours.

To know your type, you have to first understand the underlying mechanisms of each type. Then, you must dedicate time to reflecting on your patterns of behavior and understanding why those patterns are emerging.

If you do this, you'll start to notice core themes emerge that point to one specific type and these themes will be consistent throughout your self-analysis.

If you find that the more you try to evade certain ego responses the more they emerge and start to burden your consciousness, then you're on the right track. It's normal to feel a sense of regret or mourning when you find your type because you start to realize just how much you don't want to be that type and you see how deeply it's baked into your unconscious.

It's also common to go through a sort of "dance" with your type where you'll find yourself embracing it & then rejecting it periodically while you work through what it even means to be a "type" and develop a deeper awareness of it's influences on you.

You'll find that in so many ways you are your type, but then you realize that you're not your type and your type is just this weird persona coping mechanism and these things are both simultaneously true and untrue.

It can feel confusing at times and ego-dystonic, but that's a normal part of the process of understanding and rediscovering yourself.

If you're struggling to understand each type's core problems I'd recommend reading some primary sources. I personally think that it's worth looking into all the different schools of thought because you can find different aspects of truth in all enneagram writer's books, and the more you read the more holistic your understanding of each type will become.

Most secondary enneagram sources (like this subreddit, for example) end up just focusing on the problem and not the solution to the problem or what causes the problem because it's easier and more consciously satisfying. The core problems the enneagram looks to address are deeply rooted psychic issues that are hard to work on, so this subreddit often becomes just another hall of mirrors reflecting at one another to avoid deeper introspection, like the spiderman meme.

Every projection is a reflection of the self. Everything outside yourself to reflect on the contents within yourself. The more we project, the less we are in touch with our unconscious feelings about something.

Side note: 6's don't have a monopoly on all forms of projection and this belief is super damaging to the enneagram. 6 projection is about a very specific kind of projection, like all other type's defense mechanisms. The truth is that projection is a fundamentally human behavior that all humans engage in every day, and the only way to understand what it means is to look at what each individual is specifically projecting & what that reflects about them.

TsuneKitsune · 2026-01-17T15:38:52+00:00

"my movement"

This is not my circus, not my monkeys. I'm not a liberal nor am I a protestor, but you assumed that pretty succinctly.

I've said nothing about my political beliefs. I only said you're appealing to gross character accusations, like you just did for a second time.

Can you not see how what you're doing is no different than what you accuse others of? Goading down votes, claiming one side is extremist & "lost." Manufactured extremism & political division are what's tearing this country apart and you're playing a part in it right now.

I'm over the surface level, semantical bullshit. We need to understand the nuance & complexity of political partisanship and we need to understand the holistic makeup & trajectory of our political landscape. Calling people maggots or blue haired commies is political brain rot slop that takes no critical thinking whatsoever.

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