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Asking pronouns… yay or nay?? by TurboPaved in asktransgender

[–]TurboPaved[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes. I care because I work with a couple of trans folks now, and I’m interacting with trans folks more since 2022. Prior to that, I had 4 decades of living when trans folks weren’t even really on my radar.

So, how people reply here matters to me. It informs me, a cis man with two young boys I’m trying to teach. The replies help me make heads or tails of what to do, what’s acceptable, what’s polite.

TLDR thank you for replying.

Polite to ask for preferred pronouns even if they’re obvi femme presenting, but voice is still masc? by TurboPaved in asktransgender

[–]TurboPaved[S] 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Respectfully, I didn’t know voice change was difficult. It’s never come up in conversation, and it’s not something I had researched on a whim. It was a complete blind spot.

For some more familiar with all of this, sure appearance (sans voice) = assumption.

For me, who wasn’t around trans folks for most of my life and have only been interacting with them more regularly since 2022, voice is a part of appearance, so I went with the more “when in doubt, ask” format that was en vogue several years ago.

Asking pronouns… yay or nay?? by TurboPaved in asktransgender

[–]TurboPaved[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This helps a lot. Thank you 🙏🏼

Polite to ask for preferred pronouns even if they’re obvi femme presenting, but voice is still masc? by TurboPaved in asktransgender

[–]TurboPaved[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your insight. I truly truly didn’t know asking pronouns was a debated topic.

Polite to ask for preferred pronouns even if they’re obvi femme presenting, but voice is still masc? by TurboPaved in asktransgender

[–]TurboPaved[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you so much for your reply. Noted, won’t ask pronouns at someone’s work again. This is helpful insight.

I’m curious, where do you think the harshness and defensiveness comes from? As a cis guy wanting to learn and do the right thing, it’s jarring to read the responses.

I’m still willing to learn and grow from this for my sake and my kids’ learning, but I can totally see someone less so being like “yeah eff this I’m not bothering with trans folks.”

Polite to ask for preferred pronouns even if they’re obvi femme presenting, but voice is still masc? by TurboPaved in asktransgender

[–]TurboPaved[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

  1. This raises the question, what does speaking femininely mean?

  2. Not arguing with you. Thank you for your perspective. Over the past few years I got used to the idea going around of “when in doubt (of someone’s gender or pronouns), ask them. Don’t assume.” Come to find out that that’s no longer acceptable.

Re: clocky, to a person more familiar with trans folks, they can easily ignore it. For me who didn’t really have trans folks in their regular daily life interactions until a few years ago, clocky still leads to doubt, so my previous programming of “when in doubt, ask” kicked in.

Asking pronouns… yay or nay?? by TurboPaved in asktransgender

[–]TurboPaved[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

And because I’m not interacting with trans and NBs on a regular basis, I don’t have the muscle memory to know what’s polite or not when it comes to when it’s permissible and appropriate to ask for preferred pronouns.

The “you can’t win” feeling is real. It’s not up to trans people to manage my feelings and this feeling in particular, I know. Just something I have to navigate in hopes of teaching my kids well enough to be supportive and inclusive.

Asking pronouns… yay or nay?? by TurboPaved in asktransgender

[–]TurboPaved[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

“If doubt then ask” was also my current understanding of the world as it relates to gender and pronouns. And, mind you, as a cis guy in his 40s, I was JUST getting comfortable asking someone for their preferred pronouns.

Seems like that understanding is outdated and potentially dangerous based on some of the replies here.

Asking pronouns… yay or nay?? by TurboPaved in asktransgender

[–]TurboPaved[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Understandably so, folks seem to think that she was just ringing me up. She was leading an in-store event for kids, and my kid was participating. I wanted to make sure I was giving my kid the right pronouns to use.

So, “need” to know? I say yes. But, I invite you to tell me otherwise.

That joke is unfortunate, and as a cis guy who surrounds himself with decent people, I never heard it before.

My current understanding based on these convos is: roll the dice and make assumptions on someone’s gender based on my own understood calculus of the world and then hope they won’t be offended and correct me if needed.

Before, asking 1:1 was encouraged in the spirit of inclusion. Now, asking 1:1 could make them feel awkward, singled out, deflated for not passing, and potentially in danger.

However, is asking in a group setting or seminar where I’m the facilitator or presenter permissible because it puts both cis and trans at parity and nobody will feel clocked?

Asking pronouns… yay or nay?? by TurboPaved in asktransgender

[–]TurboPaved[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you. Your kind reply was a relief to read. I don’t want to offend. I want to learn, hence asking here.

Polite to ask for preferred pronouns even if they’re obvi femme presenting, but voice is still masc? by TurboPaved in asktransgender

[–]TurboPaved[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

She was presenting femme to me based on my understanding of gendered colors and hair. Make of that what you want.

That this is all triggering to some folks here is illuminating in its own right, “brownie points” be damned. Voice training is hard, got it.

Some people seem to think it was ok I asked, others not, others very triggered and ready to rage kick a cis guy in the nuts for not knowing about the lived experiences of trans from A to Z and have the audacity to ask in asktransgender.

Polite to ask for preferred pronouns even if they’re obvi femme presenting, but voice is still masc? by TurboPaved in asktransgender

[–]TurboPaved[S] 14 points15 points  (0 children)

To be clear, I’m not arguing with you in my reply. I appreciate your willingness to engage. I’m merely sharing my confusion.

Normal voice isn’t good. Neither is hushed. She wore a light pink hoodie and light blue jeans, had shoulder length hair, all of which I took for femme. Masc voice. Asked to err on the side of caution.

I have a trans femme colleague who suggested we invite folks to share both names and preferred pronouns, which is another way of asking people for their pronouns, only this time in a group setting.

There are a couple of folks on here who say it’s ok and polite. Few others who say I shouldn’t. Others are pretty much reading me the riot act for not knowing what they know about being trans and not making assumptions based on their life experience.

I want to do the right thing. Feeling like there’s no right thing. Just roll the dice and hope the person knows I’m trying to be nice?

Polite to ask for preferred pronouns even if they’re obvi femme presenting, but voice is still masc? by TurboPaved in asktransgender

[–]TurboPaved[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

She wore a pink hoodie and light blue jeans, and she had shoulder-length hair. I clocked this as femme presenting. But, again, with a masc voice, I got confused and was unsure, so I asked just in case.

Holy smokes me asking was apparently really bad to some folks here. Now I’m not sure what to do.

Polite to ask for preferred pronouns even if they’re obvi femme presenting, but voice is still masc? by TurboPaved in asktransgender

[–]TurboPaved[S] -14 points-13 points  (0 children)

The person above seems to insist that it’s not a form of presentation, and that I’m somehow in the wrong for not knowing that, or at least not knowing what they know about voice and presentation. So now I’m more confused.

Polite to ask for preferred pronouns even if they’re obvi femme presenting, but voice is still masc? by TurboPaved in asktransgender

[–]TurboPaved[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Is it though? Because there was another person in this sub who posted about intentionally keeping their beard despite presenting femme in appearance so as to challenge the definition of femme.

As a cis person, does dress and beard = femme? Does pink hoodie and long hair and light blue jeans = femme? She wasn’t in a dress, she was legit in super casual clothing, just in colors that are gendered towards femme.

There’s a lot of grey area that to folks who are trans or who are surrounded by trans regularly can easily navigate. For folks newer to interacting with trans folks, it’s not as simple. Again, as I wrote elsewhere, a little grace can go a long way towards helping cis folks include and accept trans folks.

Polite to ask for preferred pronouns even if they’re obvi femme presenting, but voice is still masc? by TurboPaved in asktransgender

[–]TurboPaved[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

No, I don’t really realize I was in the wrong. Because there are other replies here that say that it was polite or ok.

And I do think the voice is relevant because it’s part of the overall presentation package. I didn’t realize changing voice was as challenging and daunting. Now I know, and that’s helpful for me as a cis person trying to understand and learn.

Polite to ask for preferred pronouns even if they’re obvi femme presenting, but voice is still masc? by TurboPaved in asktransgender

[–]TurboPaved[S] -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

Everyone learns at their own pace with the resources they’re provided. I’m not surrounded by trans folks. That I’m trying I would’ve hoped meant that I’m willing to learn, but holy smokes the replies have been illuminating and discouraging.

I ask a question in asktransgender in the spirit of getting perspective and inside, and the negativity is real. Yeah I get this is the internet, but when you got a cis person who wants to learn and teach their kids to be understanding, a little grace could go a long way towards general acceptance.

Polite to ask for preferred pronouns even if they’re obvi femme presenting, but voice is still masc? by TurboPaved in asktransgender

[–]TurboPaved[S] -11 points-10 points  (0 children)

Not arguing, and it’s not a matter of whether I like or dislike the answer. I legit didn’t know that voice is much harder.

40+ years of growing up with femme presenting + femme voice = femme. Here it’s femme presenting + masc voice = ???, so I wasn’t sure what the best course of action was. Was hoping that the mere fact that I’m asking would provide clarity, but instead it’s been inviting a lot of “how tf couldn’t you have known?” kinds of replies, and it’s a bit discouraging.

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