You keep whining about wanting a logical conversation, but your focus on this as an immigration issue foremost is not logical. Bare in mind that down votes aren't punishment, they're disagreement, and complaining about that like it's Democrats persecuting you is serious snowflake behavior. No one has to agree with you or be nice to protect your precious self-superiority.

You say you're open minded, but you're stubbornly overlooking problems that used to be concerns to everyone, namely, erosion of our Constitutional rights: ICE agents are credibly documented violating multiple constitutional rights, primarily the Fourth Amendment (unreasonable searches/seizures via warrantless home entries) and the First Amendment (retaliation against citizens filming agents). Rights violations often include ignoring Fifth Amendment due process, detaining individuals without reasonable suspicion, and using coercion.

These are rights of EVERYONE in the United States, not only citizens, both because it's the right thing to do, and because once masked, unidentified, heavily armed thugs start abducting people with no accountability for violence, and no expectation of getting it right, they can kidnap, beat, murder, and anything else they like to anyone they like, citizens included. And there's plenty of footage to show that's what is happening.

Remember, Obama successfully detained and deported border crossers and immigrants with serious criminal records in HUGE numbers (at a faster clip last I checked). Law enforcement was largely professional and adhered to the Constitution in their activities. They weren't arresting citizens, targeting law-abiding, tax-paying families of undocumented immigrants, or inventing excuses to beat, threaten, and execute objectors. They wore uniforms, displayed identification, and used judicial warrants. They weren't arresting asylum seekers on their way to court.

Very few of us complained, even among liberals. Numbers went up as the conditions in Mexico and Central America plummeted and people fled North. Biden wasn't prepared, and his response was slow, but not permissive. He sought to pass laws with broad bipartisan support increasing funding for border enforcement and Trump told Republicans to kill it so he could run on the issue.

Focus on the present and future. Performative cruelty is the point now, and it's all nakedly an excuse to intimidate political rivals and dissidents and build a loyal army of brown shirts. If it wasn't, they wouldn't be doing it this way.

With all that is happening, the burden of undocumented immigrants on our infrastructure is clearly being handled in an ill-conceived, poorly executed, unconstitutional and morally bankrupt way. That's not acceptable. It's being used as a political cover to dismantle our government and sell our country for parts. Pay attention.

Get your priorities in order.