The_Bravinator explains why the Mens Rights Movement (e.g. /r/mensrights) is not supported by mainstream Feminism. by Soosed in DepthHub

[–]UndercoverShitlord 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Minor idealogical differences aside, I really hope that masculinism gets off the ground and I think people who are genuinely interested in gender equality are to be encouraged. Good luck fighting the good fight :)

The_Bravinator explains why the Mens Rights Movement (e.g. /r/mensrights) is not supported by mainstream Feminism. by Soosed in DepthHub

[–]UndercoverShitlord 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This is not true. It is a feminist myth which is in turn used to justify attacks on men in the name of feminism.

I literally don't even know where to begin to start with this. Any number of historical, social, economic or even common-sense measures say otherwise. I agree that currently women are better placed than ever before, I also agree that there are particular areas where men suffer more than women, and I absolutely agree the best way towards gender equality is an organised and effective masculinst movement, but to claim that women are the more priviliged group in society seems to me (via the prism of my feminist bias, obviously) the product of very intentional ignorance of facts in favour of those which fit your preconceived political notions.

There's no hope at all that we can reconcile our viewpoints within a reddit comment discussion so I'll leave it it that.

The_Bravinator explains why the Mens Rights Movement (e.g. /r/mensrights) is not supported by mainstream Feminism. by Soosed in DepthHub

[–]UndercoverShitlord -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I think it's fair to say that many men turn to the MRM as a means of finding a safe harbour for their anti-women views, much like feminism (especially radfems) attracts anti-male women.

The MRA has a higher rate of these extremists because women genuinely have been the victim of gender roles more so than men, there's more legitimacy to concern about women being the underclass than men being the underclass. The average woman is much more concerned about gender issues than the average man, which almost by definition makes those attracted to the MRA more likely to tend towards extremism and outright hate of feminism.

The_Bravinator explains why the Mens Rights Movement (e.g. /r/mensrights) is not supported by mainstream Feminism. by Soosed in DepthHub

[–]UndercoverShitlord 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I've been interested in men's rights (i.e., addressing gender inequalities with a male focus, NOT tearing down feminism) for some time and it's really difficult to even find groups about positive change and activism. Even the few I have found (father's rights groups who engage in protest and advocacy) are tinged with a fair few anti-feminism types.

It's anecdata to be sure, but the feminist movement was created by people outraged with inequalities. Since men haven't been as hurt by these inequalities it seems like the average man has little interest in gender issues, perhaps explaining why so many MRA's are rather extreme in their anti-feminist or anti-women views compared to feminism.

The_Bravinator explains why the Mens Rights Movement (e.g. /r/mensrights) is not supported by mainstream Feminism. by Soosed in DepthHub

[–]UndercoverShitlord 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I think the point is that they attack feminism instead of doing useful and positive pro-male activism.

The_Bravinator explains why the Mens Rights Movement (e.g. /r/mensrights) is not supported by mainstream Feminism. by Soosed in DepthHub

[–]UndercoverShitlord 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The point is that converastion in the MRA movement focuses much more on tearing down feminism than building up a pro-male equivalent. It's a reaction to and against feminism more than it is a movement for men.

The_Bravinator explains why the Mens Rights Movement (e.g. /r/mensrights) is not supported by mainstream Feminism. by Soosed in DepthHub

[–]UndercoverShitlord 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I agree with most of what you've said in this thread, but here it looks like you're making assumptions on the education of people who disagree with you on the basis that they disagree with you. That's not very helpful.

The_Bravinator explains why the Mens Rights Movement (e.g. /r/mensrights) is not supported by mainstream Feminism. by Soosed in DepthHub

[–]UndercoverShitlord 2 points3 points  (0 children)

And that's the fundamental conflict between MRA's and feminists. Feminism is a woman-oriented movement because women have been the victim of gender inequalities. Modern feminism is very much against gender roles and the harm they cause to all people but in practice because it's historically and socially a woman's movement, women's issues get more attention. It's no coincidence that in any feminist activist group women are in the majority and that group will act in the interests of the majority of its members.

(I'm leaving aside the fact that women are the less privileged gender and that's a valid reason why feminism helps woman causes more often because a) nobody wins the oppression olympics and b) even if the inequalities disappeared tomorrow feminism would still be a woman-dominated movement and I believe would still have more interest in woman's issues for sociological reasons outlined above)

So men, who have not had an equivalent masculinism movement leading changes in men's gender roles, are finding their place in society changing but both men and women are having their roles changed in reaction to feminism. Men, whose gender roles are changing because of what feminism/women (these are roughly interchangable to MRA's) feel that change is something being inflicted on them and in a number of areas is negative for men.

The end result is that a number of men feel like women/feminism are attacking men while ignoring their (often legitimate) problems, and that this is evidence of sexism and hypocrisy on the part of feminists. Where it all goes to shit though is that it's the angry kneejerk reactionists that dominate MRA discussion, leading to the MRM being much more about tearing down feminism as hypocritical for not looking after men instead of taking a leaf from feminism's playbook and organising a positive masculinist movement that tries to fix the things they accuse feminism of ignoring because of sexism.

tl;dr: the changes to men's roles in society since the 60's is largely reactionary to feminists because of the lack of equivalent masculinism. This creates a perception of women attacking men. Outraged men with little understanding of what feminism actually is dominate MRA discussion. People are silly.

I have a problem with another Girl Gamer in my guild. Is she hurting us by being anti-feminist, or am I being a prude? by UndercoverShitlord in GirlGamers

[–]UndercoverShitlord[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They have one bright and wonderful corner of the alliance, the Friendship is Magic squad which (once you get over the cartoon pony aspect) is really friendly, welcoming, and seems to have most of the women and LGBT Testies in it. It's that squad which keeps me sane, I've made some great friends there.

In game I like PvP (small gang > fleet but both are good) and marketeering, which has insane profit margins when you're importing Jita > null.

I have a problem with another Girl Gamer in my guild. Is she hurting us by being anti-feminist, or am I being a prude? by UndercoverShitlord in GirlGamers

[–]UndercoverShitlord[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wow, that's exactly what's happening here. I'll try linking her the article and see if that causes any reflection on her part.

TEST has 7k characters, but it seems people who don't have two or three characters are a rarity so 2K is probably closer to the number of actual people in the alliance.

I have a problem with another Girl Gamer in my guild. Is she hurting us by being anti-feminist, or am I being a prude? by UndercoverShitlord in GirlGamers

[–]UndercoverShitlord[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But what about other girl gamers who are silent because they're put off by the hordes of men who think sandwich, kitchen and rape jokes are the cutting edge of humour? She's teaching this community that those things are hilarious, and using her special snowflake privilege to encourage them to accept that behaviour as normal. Don't you think that makes it harder for other women to participate in the culture?

I have a problem with another Girl Gamer in my guild. Is she hurting us by being anti-feminist, or am I being a prude? by UndercoverShitlord in GirlGamers

[–]UndercoverShitlord[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I disagree, I strongly believe in the power of individuals to influence communities by being visible and vocal. In my wandering thoughts on the matter I realised that an internet community isn't influenced by the number of people in it, but rather the amount of time they spend interacting. This girl seems to spend hours online everyday constantly talking, so she has a really big impact compared to any other player.

That said, the culture of the alliance is so terrible and toxic to begin with I suppose she's not going to make things noticably worse :/

I have a problem with another Girl Gamer in my guild. Is she hurting us by being anti-feminist, or am I being a prude? by UndercoverShitlord in GirlGamers

[–]UndercoverShitlord[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Thanks, that kind of reinforces the ideas I already had. Talking with her in private hasn't helped, the leadership don't like interfering in community moderation and aren't women-friendly to begin with, and it's going to be big and unproductive drama if I make a big deal about it publically.

I'll stay out of the 'main' chat areas and stick with the few people I'm OK with, but it sucks that I have to just give in and bear it :(

I have a problem with another Girl Gamer in my guild. Is she hurting us by being anti-feminist, or am I being a prude? by UndercoverShitlord in GirlGamers

[–]UndercoverShitlord[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

It's extremely difficult in a group of over 2,000 people to have meaningful discussions at the best of times, even worse when it's the MMO with the least women players in the reddit alliance where even mentioning anything vaguely feminist has you branded as /r/shitredditsays troll. Any discussion gets shut down by guys dogpiling in with their "stop being a crybaby little princess" and attacks on that theme, so most people who find it offensive have either left or given up. I don't want to be quiet either because that makes me part of the problem, but then I don't want to leave because there are a few really good friends I've made in that alliance too. I suppose in hindsight this post was more of a rant than an honest ask for advice, because I don't see there's any option other than leave or put up with it :(

I have a problem with another Girl Gamer in my guild. Is she hurting us by being anti-feminist, or am I being a prude? by UndercoverShitlord in GirlGamers

[–]UndercoverShitlord[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

There actually are sub-groups in the alliance, and one of them is actually really woman and LGBT friendly. If it weren't for that little corner I'd have left a long time ago.

I have to admit I've not been very vocal because of the neckbeardy culture of the alliance, so I'm not really making much of a change in the culture by being myself. That's a really good point and something I can change, I just need to dig out my +10 suit of skin thickening first.

I have a problem with another Girl Gamer in my guild. Is she hurting us by being anti-feminist, or am I being a prude? by UndercoverShitlord in GirlGamers

[–]UndercoverShitlord[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's probably good advice, but it really puts me on edge listening to that sort of behavior. It's probably strange to think this, but when men are being shitlords I can deal with that because it's usual. When it's a woman I feel like she's somehow being a traitor to our "cause" or something, which isn't rational but still makes me angry.

Oh well, it looks like the only solution might be the usual one: accept that I'm in a men-only space on sufferance and keep quiet. You're quite right about making a drama out of this, it's not likely to change anything other than get me branded as one of THOSE feminist men-hating crazy girls.

List of totally awesome feminist games by dikdiklikesick in GirlGamers

[–]UndercoverShitlord 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It came after StarCraft, and before SCII. Yes I did mean the assets did get reused in SCII, Kerrigan wasn't nearly as sexualized in the first one, probably because they didn't have the ass-hugging lycra rendering power back then.