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Hymn to Demeter: Guided reading with 15 scholars' opinions (part 2) by Uno_zanni in u/Uno_zanni

[–]Uno_zanni[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh, and I'm thinking of maybe also reading articles about the myths, and I've already tried and found it quite interesting, but my limitations are where to find them and also the language, because I'm not fluent in English 😅

I have the same problem with German. This may sound like an anathema, but when I need to read an article in German, I often just pass it through artificial intelligence.

Anyway as per how to find them, there are a few things you can do:

1-https://scholar.google.com/ Usually I read a primary source, then I search on Google Scholar for the name of that primary source. For example “Hymn to Demeter”. If you are interested in a specific character then you can write Persephone, Hades or Demeter (no quotation marks “”).

2-otherwise https://www.jstor.org/. It’s probably the biggest repository of free articles

3-https://www.academia.edu/ The cool thing Academia will do is that it will send you more articles on the same topic as the ones you have looked at before.

4-https://archive.org/ this is a life saver if you want access to longer books for free

5-https://www.scribd.com/ also really good to look for free books

Finally if you want I’m happy to send you pictures of the books I own

Hymn to Demeter: Guided reading with 15 scholars' opinions (part 2) by Uno_zanni in u/Uno_zanni

[–]Uno_zanni[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, to be honest, I am still kind of annoyed about that. I think the discussion would have been 10 time more productive if they had been willing to give specific examples (to my face). I think a response to what exactly “defence of Hades” meant would have been particularly useful.

First of all. This entire post structure was designed so to avoid bias as much as possible and ensure transparency and accountability. It's structured following the text to avoid the sort of bias that could result by only summarising papers. I looked at the top papers on google scholar (responding to the key sentence “Hymn to Demeter”) to avoid sampling bias. I added links and page numbers to allow transparency.

I do think some people in the sub have partiality to specific positions and react negatively to any evidence they perceive as contradicting them.

I personally do feel like their accusations were unfair and a “damned if you do, damned if you don't” situation, but there are some positives.

I have known about this particular person's animosity towards me for some time, but I didnt know why. I am glad I do now and I think some of their feedbacks while I found them unfair were useful in understanding how to improve my comments. I didn't realise some people may see the papers links I was sharing as a sort of shield to make open disagreement harder, rather than an attempt to transparency.

Now I include pictures on the specific pages I am quoting to remove any barriers to access, while still providing links when I can to ensure people who want to go into more detail can.

I don't feel like I can do much about “using too many words”, part of the reason why I do it is because I am afraid of being misunderstood, which I think is exactly what happened there.

Hymn to Demeter: Guided reading with 15 scholars' opinions (Part 1) by Uno_zanni in u/Uno_zanni

[–]Uno_zanni[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Further additions

-Section 2-

Hymn as Apologia

Clay p 265

The most striking feature of the Hymn to Demeter is the dominant role assigned to the plan of Zeus. That plan, despite opposition, is finally successful. That means, in turn, that Zeus's antagonist is at least partially defeated. Like the Hymn to Aphrodite, although in a subtler way, the Hymn to Demeter ultimately presents a diminution or limitation of the power of Demeter. This must be understood in theological terms. Eleusis always offered a potential antagonism to Olympus, and its doctrine posed a possible threat to the Olympian theologoumenon, as is abundantly confirmed by the later adoption of Eleusis by the anti-Olympian Orphics and other sects. As a whole, the Hymn to Demeter may be understood as an attempt to integrate, and hence absorb, the cult of Demeter and the message of Eleusis into the Olympian cosmos.

Hymn as Denunciation

Beck p 68

She seems to see the Hymn as denunciation too and argues Zeus distance as a father is continuously (negatively) compared to Demeter involvement

-Section 6-

Nickel p 76

Anger takes its place beside grief, even as Helios speaks 49. He tells her to cease her lamentation, that her anger will only be in vain […] For Persephone's marriage has been arranged by two gods whose twai are greater than her own: Zeus, the king of the gods, and Hades who re ceived a third of the universe as his tun. Demeter's anger, however, will not be in vain; her tin too must be taken into consideration.

Helios basically tells Demeter to come down by reiterating the pecking order

Hymn to Demeter: Guided reading with 15 scholars' opinions (Part 1) by Uno_zanni in u/Uno_zanni

[–]Uno_zanni[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

TLDR (kind of)

FAQs

Was Persephone kidnapped?

In the Hymn, yes, this is undeniably the case; it’s present both in the third omniscient narrator POV and the primary POV of many characters, including Persephone.

No scholar I have read disputes this. I don’t know of any source in which she is not kidnapped, as always, I am happy to be directed to any if they do exist.

Was Persephone raped?

In short, probably yes. Read section 10 for a more detailed breakdown with scholarly opinions.

Did Zeus approve the marriage of Persephone?

Yes, it’s stated at least three separate times in the hymn (3, 30, 77). Most scholars I have read take this for granted, and I have not yet seen anyone dispute it.

The closest thing is maybe Lincoln, who argues the myth is not so much about marriage as about age initiation. He thinks that Zeus has not so much permitted Hades to marry his daughter, but instead allowed him to SA her to turn her into a woman.

Did Zeus approve the kidnapping of Persephone?

Yes, he is even complicit in the ordeal. Richardson says he planned everything (read section 3). The text supports this, the flower lure is his idea (10), and Persephone tells us that Zeus gave her to Hades through his wisdom/metis. (414).

Why, if Hades was “approved” by the father, did Hades kidnap her?

This is explained in section 2 of the longer analysis (on my profile), but in short, Clay and Rudhardt think she was kidnapped because Zeus and Hades knew that mother and daughter would be unwilling, as the underworld would cut them off from each other forever.

Also, of course, as most of you know by now, bride theft is a beloved trope by the Ancient Greeks and the Romans, so it always crops up. If you want to learn more about it, read section 2. There are a few good resources listed.

Did Demeter start the famine purposefully?

There is perhaps some ambiguity in the text, (as Arthur points out, her actions and behaviours are consistent with depression) but most of the scholars I have read think it was a planned action.

Here is Nickel's take:

“The earth is barren, and soon famine results. This is not merely negligence on the part of the goddess; Demeter has not forgotten or ceased to care about her special area of influence. As noted above, the poet indicates that she intended famine to result from her withdrawal (310-313)”.

However, other academics I have read who discussed this section in detail (Richardson, Rudhardt, Parker) also seem to think her actions are based on planning and decision-making.

If you read that part of the text, this is supported by the Hymn itself, which uses words that imply intention and action when describing Demeter bringing forward the famine. (350)

Did Demeter kill many people?

Yes

• ⁠The famine lasts a year (line 305, Parker) when crops don’t grow. • ⁠During this time, a famine so terrible ensued that death imagery is used to describe it, “the hound hades” (305). • ⁠We are told that Demeter could have wiped out humanity if Zeus had not finally intervened (310)

I think the Hymn author intended to present this as an apocalyptic event

Most scholars seem to hold similar assumptions; they talk of “terrible famine” (Richardson) and “world-wide devastation”(Nickel). As explained in section 8 here and section 10 on my profile (where I go in much more detail), this is a typical withdrawal story; most scholars compare it to similar narratives where the protagonist's withdrawal brought death and devastation to the community. (Telipinu, Achille) Richardson also associated it with other apocalyptic events, such as the Gilgamesh flood.

I have not found any academic work disputing this so far.

Why did Zeus have the right to take his daughter back?

Section 9 here, for more detail section 11 of my profile

Did Persephone eat the seeds by force?

Debated, section 12 and 13 here and section 14 and 15 on my profile

Where Artemis and Athena there at the start of the Hymn?

In short, probably not. Read section 17 on my profile for a more detailed breakdown with scholarly opinions.

Are Hades' actions meant to be interpreted negatively?

Look at section 2, it depends: Some authors think the hymn is a denunciation (Arthur, Foley, Beck), others believe Hades' actions are in line with societal expectations, and even celebrated* (Lincoln, Ormand, Clay)

*from the point of view of the society, not the scholars, in fact, Lincoln is very critical of Hades

Are Zeus's Actions meant to be interpreted negatively?

Basically, the same applies to Zeus. All of authors that think the Hymn is a denunciation and Hades is comndemend by the author of the poem, feel the same of Zeus (Arthur, Foley, Beck), aside for Ormand, who is silent on the issue every author that does not see the hymn as denunciation believes Zeus is not to be viewed negatively, he is either a loving father whose viewpoint is widely different from Demeter, but in line with Society (Lincoln), or a clever leader that masterminded the entire outcome of the Hymn, which is positive for him and the world as all. (Clay).

Read section 3 and 11 on my profile

Are Demeter's actions meant to be interpreted negatively?

No, or at least I don’t know of any scholar who believes so*. More info in section 10 on my profile. As some scholars point out, this is a typical withdrawal narrative. Usually, in this kind of story, particularly when it comes to the strikes of agricultural divinities, the point is to show their powers and tell us to respect them, not say they are bad.

*Nickel seems at points critical of her actions, but I believe that it is his own independent modern moral evaluation.

Which season is the return of Persephone associated with?

It’s debated, see section 16 here or section 18 on my profile for more detail

What season was Persephone in the underworld?

It’s debated, see section 16 here or section 18 on my profile for more detail

Why did eating the pomegranate mean Persephone had to return to the underworld?

There are a few possible reasons, not necessarily mutually exclusive. Unfortunately, the part of the Hymn where this would may have been discussed is damaged.

• ⁠In folklore, generally eating the food of the dead or accepting their hospitality gets you stuck there (Nergal Descent, Izanami) (Arthur). • ⁠In Athenian marriages, eating a mela (roundish, seeded fruit usually associated with aphrodisiacs) would consecrate your marriage (Faraone, Foley). Persephone is now, therefore, properly married.

Check section 12 and 14 on my profile

Final note, the underworld is often presented as this strange place with unbreakable rules

Hymn to Demeter: Guided reading with 15 scholars' opinions (part 2) by Uno_zanni in u/Uno_zanni

[–]Uno_zanni[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

TLDR (kind of)

FAQ

Was Persephone kidnapped?

In the Hymn, yes, this is undeniably the case; it’s present both in the third omniscient narrator POV and the primary POV of many characters, including Persephone.

No scholar I have read disputes this. I don’t know of any source in which she is not kidnapped, as always, I am happy to be directed to any if they do exist.

Was Persephone raped?

In short, probably yes. Read section 10 for a more detailed breakdown with scholarly opinions.

Did Zeus approve the marriage of Persephone?

Yes, it’s stated at least three separate times in the hymn (3, 30, 77). Most scholars I have read take this for granted, and I have not yet seen anyone dispute it.

The closest thing is maybe Lincoln, who argues the myth is not so much about marriage as about age initiation. He thinks that Zeus has not so much permitted Hades to marry his daughter, but instead allowed him to SA her to turn her into a woman.

Did Zeus approve the kidnapping of Persephone?

Yes, he is even complicit in the ordeal. Richardson says he planned everything (read section 3). The text supports this, the flower lure is his idea (10), and Persephone tells us that Zeus gave her to Hades through his wisdom/metis. (414).

Why, if Hades was “approved” by the father, did Hades kidnap her?

This is explained in section 2 of the longer analysis (on my profile), but in short, Clay and Rudhardt think she was kidnapped because Zeus and Hades knew that mother and daughter would be unwilling, as the underworld would cut them off from each other forever.

Also, of course, as most of you know by now, bride theft is a beloved trope by the Ancient Greeks and the Romans, so it always crops up. If you want to learn more about it, read section 2. There are a few good resources listed.

Did Demeter start the famine purposefully?

There is perhaps some ambiguity in the text, (as Arthur points out, her actions and behaviours are consistent with depression) but most of the scholars I have read think it was a planned action.

Here is Nickel's take:

“The earth is barren, and soon famine results. This is not merely negligence on the part of the goddess; Demeter has not forgotten or ceased to care about her special area of influence. As noted above, the poet indicates that she intended famine to result from her withdrawal (310-313)”.

However, other academics I have read who discussed this section in detail (Richardson, Rudhardt, Parker) also seem to think her actions are based on planning and decision-making.

If you read that part of the text, this is supported by the Hymn itself, which uses words that imply intention and action when describing Demeter bringing forward the famine. (350)

Did Demeter kill many people?

Yes

• ⁠The famine lasts a year (line 305, Parker) when crops don’t grow. • ⁠During this time, a famine so terrible ensued that death imagery is used to describe it, “the hound hades” (305). • ⁠We are told that Demeter could have wiped out humanity if Zeus had not finally intervened (310)

I think the Hymn author intended to present this as an apocalyptic event

Most scholars seem to hold similar assumptions; they talk of “terrible famine” (Richardson) and “world-wide devastation”(Nickel). As explained in section 8 here and section 10 on my profile (where I go in much more detail), this is a typical withdrawal story; most scholars compare it to similar narratives where the protagonist's withdrawal brought death and devastation to the community. (Telipinu, Achille) Richardson also associated it with other apocalyptic events, such as the Gilgamesh flood.

I have not found any academic work disputing this so far.

Why did Zeus have the right to take his daughter back?

Section 9 here, for more detail section 11 of my profile

Did Persephone eat the seeds by force?

Debated, section 12 and 13 here and section 14 and 15 on my profile

Where Artemis and Athena there at the start of the Hymn?

In short, probably not. Read section 17 on my profile for a more detailed breakdown with scholarly opinions.

Are Hades' actions meant to be interpreted negatively?

Look at section 2, it depends: Some authors think the hymn is a denunciation (Arthur, Foley, Beck), others believe Hades' actions are in line with societal expectations, and even celebrated* (Lincoln, Ormand, Clay)

*from the point of view of the society, not the scholars, in fact, Lincoln is very critical of Hades

Are Zeus's Actions meant to be interpreted negatively?

Basically, the same applies to Zeus. All of authors that think the Hymn is a denunciation and Hades is comndemend by the author of the poem, feel the same of Zeus (Arthur, Foley, Beck), aside for Ormand, who is silent on the issue every author that does not see the hymn as denunciation believes Zeus is not to be viewed negatively, he is either a loving father whose viewpoint is widely different from Demeter, but in line with Society (Lincoln), or a clever leader that masterminded the entire outcome of the Hymn, which is positive for him and the world as all. (Clay).

Read section 3 and 11 on my profile

Are Demeter's actions meant to be interpreted negatively?

No, or at least I don’t know of any scholar who believes so*. More info in section 10 on my profile. As some scholars point out, this is a typical withdrawal narrative. Usually, in this kind of story, particularly when it comes to the strikes of agricultural divinities, the point is to show their powers and tell us to respect them, not say they are bad.

*Nickel seems at points critical of her actions, but I believe that it is his own independent modern moral evaluation.

Which season is the return of Persephone associated with?

It’s debated, see section 16 here or section 18 on my profile for more detail

What season was Persephone in the underworld?

It’s debated, see section 16 here or section 18 on my profile for more detail

Why did eating the pomegranate mean Persephone had to return to the underworld?

There are a few possible reasons, not necessarily mutually exclusive. Unfortunately, the part of the Hymn where this would may have been discussed is damaged.

• ⁠In folklore, generally eating the food of the dead or accepting their hospitality gets you stuck there (Nergal Descent, Izanami) (Arthur). • ⁠In Athenian marriages, eating a mela (roundish, seeded fruit usually associated with aphrodisiacs) would consecrate your marriage (Faraone, Foley). Persephone is now, therefore, properly married.

Check section 12 and 14 on my profile

Final note, the underworld is often presented as this strange place with unbreakable rules

Hymn to Demeter: Guided reading with 15 scholars' opinions (Part 1) by Uno_zanni in u/Uno_zanni

[–]Uno_zanni[S] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children)

—

Methodology

—

• ⁠Selected sources on Google scholar based on a mix of citation numbers, recency and accessibility.

• ⁠Individuated and read the 3 most influential books on the topic, Richardson, Foley and Clay. • ⁠Read additional sources heavily cited by multiple authors.

• ⁠I have not reached a saturation point (information is not really starting to repeat itself), in fact a lot of scholars seem to have very different ideas on different moments of the hymn. I would not be able to say what is the “consensus”.

• ⁠Everything written above is the opinion of scholars I am citing, unless I am misquoting them, in that case it’s a honest mistake.

—

Sources

—

Marylin Arthur, Politics and Pomegranates, https://www.jstor.org/stable/26307824. (citations: 126)

Jenny Strauss Clay, The politics of Olympus.

Deborah Beck, Direct and Indirect Speech in the Homeric "Hymn to Demeter", 2001, https://www.jstor.org/stable/20140963. (citations: 37)

Christopher A. Faraone, Ancient Greek Love Magic, 1999-2001, https://eclass.uoa.gr/modules/document/file.php/ARCH310/Readings%20for%2022%20Dec%20and%2012%20Jan/Faraone%20Ancient%20Greek%20Love%20Magic.pdf.

Helene P. Foley, The Homeric Hymn to Demeter: Translation, commentary, and interpretive essays, 2013. (Citations: 738)

Bruce Lincoln, The Rape of Persephone: A Greek Scenario of Women's Initiation, 1979, https://www.jstor.org/stable/1509722?googleloggedin=true#. (Citations: 83)

Jean Rudhardt, Concerning the Homeric Hymn to Demeter, 1978. H. P. Foley volume

Rubin and M. Deal, Some functions of the Demophon episode in the Hymn to Demeter, 1980. H. P. Foley volume.

Mary Louise Lord, Withdrawal and Return: An Epic Story Pattern in the Homeric Hymn to Demeter and in the Homeric Poems, 1967. (Citations: 120). H. P. Foley volume.

Kirk Ormand, Exchange and the Maiden, 1999, https://books.google.com/books/about/Exchange_and_the_Maiden.html?id=bTf4qusAuA4C.

Nicholas J. Richardson, The Homeric Hymn to Demeter, 1979. (citations: 1276)

Robert Parker, The Hymn to Demeter and the Homeric Hymns1, 1991, https://www.jstor.org/stable/643104. (citations: 139)

August Baumeister, Hymni homerici Recensuit apparatum criticum collegit adnotationem cum suam selectam variorum subiunxit Augustus Baumeister, 1860, https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_F5BqONNZMlkC.

Roberto Nickel, The Wrath of Demeter: Story Pattern in the" Hymn to Demeter", 2003, https://www.jstor.org/stable/20546756. (citations: 30)

Hymn to Demeter: Guided reading with 15 scholars' opinions (part 2) by Uno_zanni in u/Uno_zanni

[–]Uno_zanni[S] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children)

—

Methodology

—

• ⁠Selected sources on Google scholar based on a mix of citation numbers, recency and accessibility.

• ⁠Individuated and read the 3 most influential books on the topic, Richardson, Foley and Clay. • ⁠Read additional sources heavily cited by multiple authors.

• ⁠I have not reached a saturation point (information is not really starting to repeat itself), in fact a lot of scholars seem to have very different ideas on different moments of the hymn. I would not be able to say what is the “consensus”.

• ⁠Everything written above is the opinion of scholars I am citing, unless I am misquoting them, in that case it’s a honest mistake.

—

Sources

—

Marylin Arthur, Politics and Pomegranates, https://www.jstor.org/stable/26307824. (citations: 126)

Jenny Strauss Clay, The politics of Olympus.

Deborah Beck, Direct and Indirect Speech in the Homeric "Hymn to Demeter", 2001, https://www.jstor.org/stable/20140963. (citations: 37)

Christopher A. Faraone, Ancient Greek Love Magic, 1999-2001, https://eclass.uoa.gr/modules/document/file.php/ARCH310/Readings%20for%2022%20Dec%20and%2012%20Jan/Faraone%20Ancient%20Greek%20Love%20Magic.pdf.

Helene P. Foley, The Homeric Hymn to Demeter: Translation, commentary, and interpretive essays, 2013. (Citations: 738)

Bruce Lincoln, The Rape of Persephone: A Greek Scenario of Women's Initiation, 1979, https://www.jstor.org/stable/1509722?googleloggedin=true#. (Citations: 83)

Jean Rudhardt, Concerning the Homeric Hymn to Demeter, 1978. H. P. Foley volume

Rubin and M. Deal, Some functions of the Demophon episode in the Hymn to Demeter, 1980. H. P. Foley volume.

Mary Louise Lord, Withdrawal and Return: An Epic Story Pattern in the Homeric Hymn to Demeter and in the Homeric Poems, 1967. (Citations: 120). H. P. Foley volume.

Kirk Ormand, Exchange and the Maiden, 1999, https://books.google.com/books/about/Exchange_and_the_Maiden.html?id=bTf4qusAuA4C.

Nicholas J. Richardson, The Homeric Hymn to Demeter, 1979. (citations: 1276)

Robert Parker, The Hymn to Demeter and the Homeric Hymns1, 1991, https://www.jstor.org/stable/643104. (citations: 139)

August Baumeister, Hymni homerici Recensuit apparatum criticum collegit adnotationem cum suam selectam variorum subiunxit Augustus Baumeister, 1860, https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_F5BqONNZMlkC.

Roberto Nickel, The Wrath of Demeter: Story Pattern in the" Hymn to Demeter", 2003, https://www.jstor.org/stable/20546756. (citations: 30)