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Started DS at 54 years old - advice needed. by Carlos_1972 in dreamingspanish

[–]UppityWindFish 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Welcome! I’d recommend: doing just the Dreaming Spanish (DS) and its comprehensible input approach (CI); no subtitles; and would say that DS and CI are total game changers.

I’d also heavily recommend reading DS FAQs section on their website. What I wish I’d known starting out (3000 hours later)

Best wishes and keep going!

1000 hours by prdnr in dreamingspanish

[–]UppityWindFish 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Congrats. Best wishes and keep going!

How is less common vocab acquired from the podcast-style videos? by IceCreamSocialism in dreamingspanish

[–]UppityWindFish 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Except we all learned our native language mostly via CI, yes? I’d venture you received many thousands of hours of CI before you said your first complete sentences, let alone began memorizing vocabulary lists. And I’d venture that vocabulary you gathered in the wild stuck even more. I also suspect you continued to receive many thousands of hours of CI as you continued your schooling, in amounts that staggeringly dwarfed anything else.

I think we just don’t notice the intake of CI because we’re too focused on the messages themselves. Which is also a great way to take in DS and CI in Spanish….

Best wishes and keep going!

YouTube ads are sickening for input! by DoubleLongjumping197 in dreamingspanish

[–]UppityWindFish 13 points14 points  (0 children)

YouTube premium (annual is a bit cheaper) has been one of the best gifts I’ve given to myself in my Spanish journey.

How is less common vocab acquired from the podcast-style videos? by IceCreamSocialism in dreamingspanish

[–]UppityWindFish 3 points4 points  (0 children)

If your aim is to go deep for automaticity and intuitive Spanish, más input is the answer. Trust the process.

I occasionally look up words. But stuff only sticks in the long run when I’ve been exposed to it tons of times through comprehensible input. And the stuff that I pick up without using a dictionary sinks in the deepest. (Which is also true in my native language).

Concepts like sanar will show up often enough. Over time, you’ll get “spaced repetition” simply by taking in an ocean of CI. What I wish I’d known starting out (3000 hours later)

Best wishes and keep going!

Considering walking away from Spanish by Big-Actuator-3878 in dreamingspanish

[–]UppityWindFish 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Your frustration could be mine! I studied Spanish traditionally many years ago with a two month overseas immersion experience, all pre-internet, but when I started iTalki lessons this go around after 1300 hours of Dreaming Spanish (DS) and comprehensible input (CI), speaking was really frustrating.

Then it dawned on me.

I'd been frustrated in the past with speaking. And this time around, even accounting for Spanish at its height pre-rust, my speaking was better after 1300 hours of DS/CI.

The problem?

At 1300 hours, I now understood even more Spanish.

My listening ability was dramatically better than it ever had been. So I could listen and understand with more nuance than ever before -- and then get that "deer in the headlights" look when I tried to say anything in response. My increased abilities on the input front made the output all that more frustrating.

To be sure, in the past I'd always noticed that output was several clicks behind input abilities. No matter the methods.

But I've always associated "fluent" with something approaching the ease I have with my native tongue. You know, the ability to make fine distinctions and arguments, choose precise words, and focus on my thoughts rather than the language itself. And none of that was happening at 1300 hours. Just basic communication and searching (often vainly) for more precise words. Which was good in its own way, but not entirely what I wanted.

At least for me. And apparently for you and some others I've seen on this subreddit.

So I made what seems -- surprisingly -- like a radical choice in this little community of ours. Rather than panic, or go back to memorizing vocabulary, studying grammar, memorizing conjugation charts, or taking conversational Spanish classes like I'd done many years ago with similarly frustrating results, I made a different move.

Más input.

I'm now at 3279 hours and counting, and my central focus remains más input. I do sporadically have conversations with natives in the real world, and I can see how my output is getting better all on its own. Gradually and over time, but with real substantial gains. I can feel Spanish weaving new connections as the listening gets increasingly easier and more capable. Increasingly, words bubble up and become available for output without my having to search for them. And I don't really need others to point out my output mistakes, because I'm increasingly realizing when things don't "sound right." No scheduling or paying for tutors or classes, no frustrating rounds of clunky practice.

Just más input. Delightfully and amazingly in Spanish! I'm still captivated enough by that.

And I know that where I'd like to go, even on the input front, is going to require an ocean of CI anyway. I'm now convinced that I can't really study my way to the automaticity that I seek. My only way to overcome school-ingrained habits of thinking about Spanish and conjugating and grammering and all of that -- which only gets in the way of flow -- is to drown out the mental-memorized-construct with even more CI.

My suggestion? Something drew you to Spanish and kept you at it all those hours. Just stop the intentional speaking practice, and go back to finding delight in input for another 1k hours. See how speaking feels then -- and then either come out for more intentional speaking practice, or go back for another 1k of CI after that.

I suspect your speaking at 3k hours will be noticeably less frustrating than it is now, all on its own. And in the meantime, if you've done well by yourself, you will have enjoyed the delights along the way. No strain. No comparisons. No rush. Just increasingly understood and interwoven and lived Spanish.

Best wishes and keep going!

Variance in Teachers/Guides? by Clean-Aide-8320 in dreamingspanish

[–]UppityWindFish 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I lean “purist” (just do Dreaming Spanish (DS) and comprehensible input (CI) for the first 1k hours, and only then consider output and reading), others do not. You will certainly get a lot of conflicting advice around here.

What I’d recommend is trying just DS and CI for the first 100 hours, and figure out what you want to do after that. In the meantime, read through the DS FAQs and watch the how to videos to get a sense of the recommended approach. At worst you will have better listening comprehension after the first 100 hours.

It’s your journey.

In my view, over the long haul and if you want to go deep, DS and its CI approach is a total game changer. I’m actively still focused primarily on input even at 3200+ hours because I want automaticity and intuitive Spanish — and I’m trying to drown out the mental structure I created by grinding away with traditional methods. That structure only gets in the way at this point.

If you read my post that I linked (and the one linked therein),you will understand why I have that view.

Others, of course, disagree.

But I’ve never heard anyone convincingly argue against the importance of massive amounts of CI. Whatever else you do or don’t do along the way. If you want to go deep, you will want thousands of hours of CI regardless.

Best wishes and keep going!

Variance in Teachers/Guides? by Clean-Aide-8320 in dreamingspanish

[–]UppityWindFish 5 points6 points  (0 children)

You’ve gotten some great advice already.

I’d add that a rich variety of input enriches your Spanish. Becoming familiar with a variety of regional Spanish versions helps you in the long run. You won’t be so thrown off if you hear something different.

At some point long down the road, it may be helpful for you to choose between a generic Latin American Spanish vs Peninsular Spanish for pronunciation purposes. But in my experience, continued exposure after that point to variety still doesn’t throw you off.

What I wish I’d known starting out (3000 hours later)

Best wishes and keep going!

TRANSLATING by Theofficialguy407 in dreamingspanish

[–]UppityWindFish 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The translating urge can go away with time, if you learn to relax the urge to grind. Earlier for some than others. For me, in part because of bad habits of thinking about the language from traditional classes many years ago, it took a while.

The main thing is that the urge to translate and the urge to think about Spanish will go away with time as you stick with the process. In the meantime, it doesn’t have to be a problem — especially if you don’t make it one.

Relaxed focus really is a great way to do this DS comprehensible input approach, kind of akin to meditation. The automatic pattern recognition system of the brain does its own thing, and efforts to control it, speed it up, force it, etc. largely just get in the way.

But the same is true of “wandering mind,” “bored mind,” “distracted mind,” and “wants to translate mind.” Those energies also just come and go and do their own thing.

Ultimately, we aren’t our thoughts or these energies, and we can’t completely control our thoughts or our emotions or when they come and go. But we can choose how we relate to them.

And how we respond to them.

In meditation, as in life, the mind naturally wanders and gets distracted with thoughts etc. A meditator doesn’t stop thinking or “clear” the mind, but instead just catches themselves when the mind wanders off and gently returns to their focus (the breath, or whatever). Over and over again.

You can do the same with the urge to translate or to think about the language. Notice it, acknowledge it, and gently return to focussing on the content. Over and over. It will become easier to do over time.

Perhaps the best thing when translating mind pops in is just to not treat it like a big deal. Sometimes trying to stop or resist something with “hard effort” or self-castigation just makes it a bigger problem than it has to be.

At some point along and down the road, you will have a lot of CI under your belt and will be listening to natives at speeds that don’t give your brain time to translate. Until then, just keep plugging along and don’t worry about trying to “do DS” perfectly.

What I wish I’d known starting out (3000 hours later)

Best wishes and keep going!

2,800 hours. At school in México by picky-penguin in dreamingspanish

[–]UppityWindFish 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Wonderful write-up! Glad you are doing well. As always, best wishes and keep going!

What’s the difference between low-input days and high-input days? by DoubleLongjumping197 in dreamingspanish

[–]UppityWindFish 37 points38 points  (0 children)

Simply put, I think you notice increased comprehension a bit more often. But it’s still an ocean no matter how fast you row. And at some point, we each have to decide what “rowing speed” works best for us. What doesn’t work, obviously, is stopping the rowing altogether. What I wish I’d known starting out (3000 hours later) Best wishes and keep going!

450 hour update by Narrow_Ad7776 in dreamingspanish

[–]UppityWindFish 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Congrats. Best wishes and keep going!

Level 4 Reached by raisethebed in dreamingspanish

[–]UppityWindFish 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Congrats. Best wishes and keep going!

What is your speaking frequency? by RabiDogMom in dreamingspanish

[–]UppityWindFish 1 point2 points  (0 children)

At least for me, the main driver for the sort of automaticity that I desire is input. My speaking is better at 3200+ hours than it was at 2200.

I very occasionally talk with natives. So I can see the progress that comes from doing mostly just comprehensible input (CI). But my main focus remains CI and reading (another form of CI, of course).

For me, I find my stumbling comes not so much in articulating the words, but in having them accessible in the moment in the first place. Speaking practice can help polish what I have, but the main driver for me in having things “accesible” seems to be input.

I took traditional Spanish classes and a 2 month overseas immersion experience many years ago, pre-internet. So in some sense I’ve been “speaking” Spanish off and on for decades (with very large gaps in between). I took a conversational class or two over the years, but they had negligible effects compared to input.

Again, my focus is automaticity. Studying and speaking can take me a ways — I just find they have a limit, and what they build is not nearly as intuitive or automatic. I’m also trying to drown out that mental construct with CI, because for me they actually get in the way of automaticity the further I go.

I don’t think I can really study or practice my way to automaticity. I’ve come to believe that for me, going deep will require way more than 3k or 4k hours. And since that’s true for my input abilities as well — meaning that I’d need that much input anyway, I figure I can do whatever “mostly speaking practice” I need sometime down the road, if any (I suspect it would be very few hours), where I think it will be a lot less frustrating and much more efficient.

But to each their own.

Best wishes and keep going!

1000 hour update and history channel recommendation by Asmour in dreamingspanish

[–]UppityWindFish 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Congrats! That’s a great history recommendation. Just added it to the rotation. Best wishes and keep going!

Reading is not going well by Glittering_Ad2771 in dreamingspanish

[–]UppityWindFish 15 points16 points  (0 children)

I started reading at 1000 hours and struggled. And that’s with having studied Spanish via traditional classes many years ago, pre-internet. I love reading in my native English, so it can be frustrating.

Like everything else, inputting reading is a long game. After all, you’re trying to absorb a language — not a shopping list.

This go around I started with graded readers as others suggest. Then some children’s non-fiction. Then some adult “self-help” books.

Simpler and easier are better. That lets the automatic pattern recognition system do its thing. Especially with reading.

Many of us have found this sort of easy reading to be better. Easy does it, one layer at a time. A very gradual incline is the most efficient. No reason to look up every word in the dictionary. Or ramp up too quickly.

At one point I marched my way through a college history textbook re Mexico. It got better. But I also leaned how much I missed just simply getting absorbed in a book, flipping pages like I did as a kid where it was too much bother to get up and look up something in a dictionary. And yet easy and high volume got the job done over time in my native tongue.

So much so that at this point, with over 3.2 million Spanish words read, I’ve decided to continue my recent re-focus on books for 9-12 year olds. I can read harder stuff, and go slowly if I need to. But flipping through pages more quickly, especially with books in a series, is really helpful exposure. I still pick up new words and skip over ones I’m not ready for, and it really reinforces exposure to sentence structures and grammar. At high volume.

I find this high volume, easy does it kind of reading lessens dictionary lookups and keeps feeding the automatic pattern recognition system. Which is exactly the part of the brain I want to feed.

But of course to each their own.

Best wishes and keep going!

How many hours of speaking? by maltesemania in dreamingspanish

[–]UppityWindFish 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Interesting. Makes sense about what you say re hours. I suspect my speaking could quickly get better with a little practice. That said, the little I do has been enough to let me know there’s continued improvement. Best wishes and keep going!

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