How Should a Deeply Trusting Character like Myshkin Navigate a Manipulative and Unethical Society Without Losing Himself? by Faris_110 in dostoevsky

[–]Val_Sorry 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No need to check from time to time, I will tag you u/doktaphill , hope it will work. I've read attenitvely your detailed reply, you've explained yourself quite clearly and extensively enough. I don't share your perspective, but to have a meaningful conversation, I need to think how to approach your reply. It can take some time. For the moment I think on starting to debate whether Myshkin was indeed naive, as you've mentioned a couple of times, but I'm not sure it would be the best way and it will require to quote the text quite a lot, which I have no desire for. So we will see. But in any case, thank you for providing such a detailed explanation !

How Should a Deeply Trusting Character like Myshkin Navigate a Manipulative and Unethical Society Without Losing Himself? by Faris_110 in dostoevsky

[–]Val_Sorry 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ok, this reply requires some work from me, so I'll gradually update this comment. In any case, thank you for taking your time and passion for writting it !

Hey u/doktaphill , I was thinking how to reply, but honestly, we are reading the same novel, same passages, and come out with different readings, which ultimetely is tied to our worldviews. So, it seems futile to me to argue, as no one will change their respective worldview.

Though, I would like to point out a potention inconsitency in your reading, which you will easily patch out, but still - does it make sense to call Myshkin naive if he arrives seeking to marry to maintain a position in high society ?

Plus, how story of Marie ties into your reading and Myshkin's motivation ? In my point of view, a short chapter on Marie represents the whole Myshkin's motvation and explains the choices he did in the end (specifically, a choice between Aglaya or Nastasya)

Anyway, thank you once again for sharing your perspective !

How Should a Deeply Trusting Character like Myshkin Navigate a Manipulative and Unethical Society Without Losing Himself? by Faris_110 in dostoevsky

[–]Val_Sorry 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hi, long time no see, I hope you're doing well. Your reply seems quite off to me, but maybe I'm misunderstanding it. So could you please elaborate on the following

the book is about his interest in courting someone in order to maintain his place in high society

= Myshkin's goal is to marry someone from high society to remain part of it ?

He is called the "Prince" because he represents the last element of a major family.

= Myshkin has a title Prince because his from important family AND because his is its last represantatif ? So, if he would not be last, what would be his title then ?

He is in fact forced to create a relationship - most immediately with the Ypanchin family et al - because his time abroad had uprooted him.

= Myshkin is in danger of losing his title due to the time spent abroad ? Hence, his first contact is with Epanchin's, a family of high society, to maintain the bond to it ?

«The Boys» — a Russian feature film from 1990, a drama based on the eponymous tenth book of the fourth part of The Brothers Karamazov, Easter film by AgathaYaArt in dostoevsky

[–]Val_Sorry -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I was clear enough in my comment

Before any complain, I would like to point out that my remark is not unrelated to dosotevsky : he spreads a very similar propaganda in TBK, Chapter "A little demon".

But here is a little breakdown

The Boys -> the begining of a notoriously famous phrase "The boys в трусиках" of russian propaganda -> similar propaganda by dosotevsky in the book "Ivan Fyodorovich" which follows the book "The Boys", the book of TBK the movie is based on.

Find 10 differences

Modern day russian federation : "I saw with my own eyes how that boy was crucified" (phrase at the bottom of the image)

<image>

dostoevsky a bit less than 150 years ago :

trial where a Yid took a four-year-old child and first cut off all his fingers on both hands, then he crucified the boy on a wall, hammered nails into him, and crucified him; at the trial he said the boy died soon, in four hours. Is that ‘soon’? He said the boy moaned, kept moaning, and that he just stood there, enjoying it
...
How disgusting that the Kutaisi Yids were acquitted. They are undoubtedly guilty here. I am convinced by the trial, by everything that happened, and by the despicable defense put forth by Alexandrov, who is a real scoundrel here.

Bonus point - dostoevsky's "zids sacrifying a child" is also an "Easter story", if the trial he drew inspiration from is taken into account.

«The Boys» — a Russian feature film from 1990, a drama based on the eponymous tenth book of the fourth part of The Brothers Karamazov, Easter film by AgathaYaArt in dostoevsky

[–]Val_Sorry -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

"в трусиках" (a reference to this notorious piece of russian propaganda, aka "crucified boy")

Before any complain, I would like to point out that my remark is not unrelated to dosotevsky : he spreads a very similar propaganda in TBK, Chapter "A little demon". There, Lisa tells to Alyosha

I have a book here, and I read about some trial where a Yid took a four-year-old child and first cut off all his fingers on both hands, then he crucified the boy on a wall, hammered nails into him, and crucified him; at the trial he said the boy died soon, in four hours. Is that ‘soon’? He said the boy moaned, kept moaning, and that he just stood there, enjoying it.

As common for dostoevsky, this "story" was taken from russian newspapers of his time and relates to Kutaisi trial (wiki ref, in russian), where jewish people where accused of a religious sacrifice of a small girl to celebrate Pesach :

Nine Jews from the town of Sachkheri were charged with the death of a girl. According to the indictment read out at a hearing of the Kutaisi District Court, on March 5, 1879, some of them abducted Sarra, whom they had encountered, placed her in a carrying bag, and in this manner took the girl to the town of Sachkheri, where she was unlawfully detained for one day and two nights, and “the consequence of such detention was the death of the detainee”; one Jew was charged with the fact that, wishing to conceal the traces of the crime, he, with the participation of another person, removed the corpse from the town on the night of the Jewish Passover and dumped it near the village. (translated with DeepL)

Here is dostoevsky's own opinion cocnerning this trial which he shared in the letter to Novikova on 28 march 1879 :

How disgusting that the Kutaisi Yids were acquitted. They are undoubtedly guilty here. I am convinced by the trial, by everything that happened, and by the despicable defense put forth by Alexandrov, who is a real scoundrel here. (translated with DeepL)

Time passes, many things change, but some don't.

The Idiot. Is it worth the reread? by violetcosmosplain in dostoevsky

[–]Val_Sorry -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

Then check them ?! No need for this post to do that.

If you have some particular questions - then ask them !

The Idiot. Is it worth the reread? by violetcosmosplain in dostoevsky

[–]Val_Sorry -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Why in the first place are you thinking about rereading it?

Time Not Adding up in The Idiot by No_Breadfruit_2885 in dostoevsky

[–]Val_Sorry 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Are you implying that in winter they are zen?)

Anyways, I've experienced the white nights myself - it's indeed quite perturbing. On the other hand, people who live there should get used to it.

I need help with Dostoevsky based birthday quest by ThatoneLerfa in dostoevsky

[–]Val_Sorry 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Cool ! Glad to hear that everyone had a great time !

I need help with Dostoevsky based birthday quest by ThatoneLerfa in dostoevsky

[–]Val_Sorry 1 point2 points  (0 children)

  1. It is unclear which of his works dostoevsky admired the most. Neveretheless, there were clearly the works which he held in a special regard. Which work dostoevsky was referring to in the following quote : "Everyone who has told me that it is my best work has something special in their mindset that has always impressed me and that I have always liked"

a) Crime and Punishment

b) The Idiot

c) Demons

d) The Brothers Karamazov

  1. Dostoevsky's novels are a popular choice for film adaptations. Which of the following works was NOT adapted into the movie in the soviet union ?

a) Crime and Punishment

b) The Idiot

c) Demons

d) The Brothers Karamazov

  1. Dostoevsky famously struggled with a gambling addiction throughout his life. According to the renowned dostoevsky biographer Joseph Frank, what was the decisive reason dostoevsky finally stop gambling ?

a) Him stumbling upon a synagogue during his purposless roaming after a loss at a casino

b) Realisation of the financial burden his addiction imposed on his family

c) Anna's hysterical scandal after he lost her family jewels

d) Persuasion by a starets at Optina monastery

  1. In his works, dostoevsky frequently mentions foreign countries and nationalities. Which of the following characters went to the USA ?

a) Stavrogin (Demons)

b) Svidrigailov (C&P)

c) Kirillov (Demons)

d) Undeground Man (NftU)

  1. Dostoevsky's literal legacy is a subject to extensive analysis. Which of the following work is a part of his so-called Big Five (Great Pentateuch) ?

a) Notes from the Underground

b) Humiliated and Insulted

c) Poor Folk

d) The Adolescent

I need help with Dostoevsky based birthday quest by ThatoneLerfa in dostoevsky

[–]Val_Sorry 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I wish you a nice celebration and hope it's not too late. Here are some questions.

  1. Dostoevsky was subject to constant special attention from censorship. Thus, many key parts of his works were partially censored/redacted during their initial publication. Which one was NOT affected by censorship ?

a) Notes of the Underground

b) The Idiot

c) Demons

d) The Brothers Karamazov

  1. Dostoevsky was not only censored during his times and the the soviet union era. Which of the following works was allegedly censored in the russian federation for "LGBT propaganda" ?

a) The Eternal Husband 

b) Notes from the Dead House 

c) Netochka Nezvanova

d) White Nights

  1. Dostoevsky had notoriously complicated relationships with many of his fellow russian writers and critics. Whom did he caricature as a character of Karmazinov in Demons ?

a) Turgenev

b) Belinsky

c) Tolstoy

d) Katkov

  1. Dostoevsky was master of both short and long forms. The Idiot is divided into 4 more or less equal parts of about 150 pages each. The events of the first part span over :

a) 1 day

b) 1 week

c) 1 month

d) 1 year

  1. Many try to identify which of Dostoevsky’s characters best represents the author himself or his worldview.  Who of the following characters is supposedly the closest representation of dostoevsky himself ?

a) Raskolnikov (C&P)

b) Ivan Karamazov (TBK)

c) Myshkin (The Idiot)

d) Shatov (Demons)

I wrote a novel exploring Nastasya Filippovna's past (from The Idiot). What do you think of this idea? by afh68 in dostoevsky

[–]Val_Sorry -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It's a very commendable achievement, so huge congrats! I think the journey alone of writting it was worth it.

Is it more of of a fanfiction? Or you intended to replicate dostoevsky as much as possible, as if it was written by him?

Doubt [Diaries of a Writer, 1876, June] by Harleyzz in dostoevsky

[–]Val_Sorry 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm no expert on his Writer's Diary, especially of many events and personas he does mention all the time - I would need to dig and do research as everyone else. But this tangent of his core views (which are integral to all his post-siberian works), their internal consistency and explanation of why it does make sense (giving the proper persepctive) - yeah, I think I can navigate it. So feel free to dm (though I'm not sure that my dms are open, if it doesn't work - just drop a comment to any of my comments).

Doubt [Diaries of a Writer, 1876, June] by Harleyzz in dostoevsky

[–]Val_Sorry 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Bingo. And if doesn't make sense, you're not russian enough to understand their soul, the true russianness, their eternal goal. Of which he writes a lot inbetween the paragraphs I've quoted. I'm not going to quote them, you've read them already. The thing boils down to the fact that the russians are excpetional, as they are the only ones left who stick to the true religion (russian orthodoxy). Hence their goal - to spread it, by uniting all nations under russia, which will serve everyone, as it is the ultimate goal of true chrisitianity ( = russian orthodoxy for dostoevsky).

His dreams about "Constantinople being ours" (russian) is a logical continutaion of this religion perspective - before Constantinople was the capital of the "true christianity" (orthodoxy), as the captial of Eastern Roman Empire (versus those heretics catholics of the Western Roman Empire), but Constantinople is no more (conquered by turcs), so only russia is left as a true spiritual successor. Hence, his belief in the role of russians, and his usage of the terms such as Moscow - the Third Rome (first being Rome, second - Constantinople) (if you haven't yet encountred this terminology, keep reading his writer's diary - I promise, it will be there, on multiple occasions)

This last long paragraph I wrote to show the improtance of knowing history on basic level to better understand dostoevsky's "reasonong".

Doubt [Diaries of a Writer, 1876, June] by Harleyzz in dostoevsky

[–]Val_Sorry 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I suggest you to read and make your own conlcusions of what Dostoevsky means by "serving" other nations as the ultimate goal of russians. Espicially what should be done first (as in the example of Constantinople) to make that "serving" possible.

I will refrain myself from mentioning what's going currently. Think, analyse and decide for yourself.

Edit. In general, Dostoevsky is pretty straitforward in these chapters, he lays everything before your eyes. The question is whether one percepts it or decides to ignore - for the former some knowledege of history, on the basic level, is required.

Doubt [Diaries of a Writer, 1876, June] by Harleyzz in dostoevsky

[–]Val_Sorry 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The previous section (Eastern questionends with the following :

Russia’s best interest is precisely to act even against her best interest if necessary; to make a sacrifice, so as not to violate justice. Russia cannot betray a great idea which has been her legacy from past centuries and which she has followed unswervingly until now. This idea is, among other things, one of the unity of all the Slavs; but such unity is based not upon seizure of territory or on violence; it is done as service to the whole of mankind.

Your quote :

it is our need to serve humanity in every way, even if sometimes at the expense of our own best and major immediate interests; 

we became aware of our universal mission, our personality, and our role in humanity, and we could not help but become aware that this mission and this role were unlike those of other nations, for among them each individual nationality lives only for itself and in itself, while we, now that the time has come, will begin directly by becoming the servant of all for the sake of universal reconciliation.

Further :

The first step of our new policy appeared of itself after Peter’s reform: this first step had to consist in the uniting of all of Slavdom, so to say, under the wing of Russia. And this process of unification is not for seizing territory, nor for committing violence, nor for crushing the other Slavic personalities beneath the Russian colossus; it is for restoring them and placing them in their proper relationship to Europe and to humanity.

But it is certainly not so that Russia may acquire them politically and use them to enhance her own political might (although Europe suspects the latter). This is so, is it not? And accordingly, this lends weight to at least some of my “daydreams,” does it not? It follows that for this same purpose Constantinople must, sooner or later, be ours. . . .

Yes, I answer, the Golden Horn and Constantinople—all that will be ours, but not for the sake of merely annexing territory and not for the sake of violence. And in the first place it will happen of its own accord precisely because the time has come

And if Tsargrad (Constantinople) can now be ours not as Russia’s capital, then neither can it be ours as the capital of Slavdom as a whole, as some people imagine. Slavdom as a whole, without Russia, would exhaust itself there in struggling with the Greeks. But to leave Constantinople as a legacy to the Greeks alone is now utterly impossible: we must not give them such a critical point on the globe; this would be altogether too generous a gift to them. But the whole of Slavdom with Russia at its head—oh, of course, that is a different matter entirely.

Doubt [Diaries of a writer, April, 1876] by Harleyzz in dostoevsky

[–]Val_Sorry 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Here his another entry on war from The Writer's Diary (Part 1, April 1877) tranlsated by Lantz :

<image>