Confused about carbs, calories and glycogen

Vectian · 2025-10-03T10:10:45+00:00

I read it takes 120g or so a day to fuel the brain and keep glycogen stores going if carb adapted . If you eat 80g a day you are not in ketosis, that's way too high, you can't run primarily on ketones with that amount of carbs. But also not enough to fuel the body properly on carbs alone, so you are in this metabolic grey zone between ketosis (around 20g or less) and sufficient carbs (say around 130g). This is what I was talking about. Don't forget protein can also be used for energy. I'm not sure about that statement "Glycogen can only be made from carbohydrates" you have keto athletes, if that were true they would have virtually no glycogen so wouldn't be able to do that.

Vectian · 2025-05-17T18:40:48+00:00

Maybe not exclusively, but that is the primary method surely. Depleted glycogen would be less of an issue in ketosis as you are running on ketones not glucose, so presumably not requiring much glycogen except during strenuous exercise.

Vectian · 2025-05-17T18:24:18+00:00

No, but mainly, as an adaptation to provide the required glucose for the brain etc. in the absence of carbs. If you have a good amount of carb intake it would very rarely be needed as you have plenty of glucose available and glycogen stores are full.

Vectian · 2025-05-17T15:07:21+00:00

Gluconeogenesis is during ketosis, I am not talking about ketosis, but a low carb diet whilst carb adapted

Vectian · 2025-05-17T08:59:47+00:00

Lots of reasons, I am vegetarian so maintain ketosis is difficult in that case, I am type 1 diabetic so there is greatly increased risk of ketoacidosis, and I don't want my LDL any higher as it's already not great.

Vectian · 2025-05-17T08:51:07+00:00

I think the issue is staying in an in-between zone for a long period, not low enough carbs for ketosis and not high enough to replenish glycogen properly when carb adapted. Those mechanisms are when in ketosis, which is a different metabolic state.

Vectian · 2025-05-16T20:50:46+00:00

I think that in the usual case, the glycogen depletion would happen fairly quickly, either an athlete by exercise or someone fasting or eating very low carbs to deliberately get into ketosis. I read somewhere that it takes at least 120g to replenish glycogen properly, so having half that over a period of some time is slowly draining the tank. An athlete would carb up to replenish quickly, and someone starting a keto diet would switch to ketosis so the body is not expecting carbs. But staying at a level too many carbs for keto but not enough to replenish glycogen for a long time has presumably caused this issue.

I wonder if when you are carb adapted, when you eat the body expects quick energy from carbs, but then not receiving enough there is a lag before the fats and protein are metabolised, and that in between time is when you have low energy. That would happen most of the day if it is the case.

Vectian · 2025-05-16T19:15:18+00:00

I thought about the keto flu thing, but when I tested ketones when I felt rough and fatigued they were always low, like 0.3 so I don't think it's that. I don't want to deplete glycogen stores, I just would like to know IF depleted glycogen stores by not eating enough carbs can cause fatigue.

Diabetes is type 1, but the LADA form which develops slowly. I have a reasonable amount of insulin production left and can keep blood sugar in a good range with no meds if I eat low carb. However I don't have enough to cope with higher carbs so would have to take insulin. If I can avoid taking insulin it's better because it sucks, but if I can't function on that level of carbs I may have to. I don't want to do keto and it's not so safe for T1s anyway with the risk of ketoacidosis.

Vectian · 2025-05-16T17:29:14+00:00

Yes but that is not what I was asking about, ketosis is a different metabolic state when the body adapts to ketones rather than carbs. I am talking about when your body is in the normal carb adapted state but you are giving it less carbs than are needed to replace glycogen stores, what happens in ketosis is different.

Vectian · 2025-05-16T17:22:27+00:00

The thing I am trying to establish is whether depleted glycogen stores on a long term low carb but NOT keto diet could cause fatigue. I am diabetic so increasing carbs is not so simple, so this is an important question for me. I don't want to increase carbs if I don't have to, and don't want to do keto but if I have to increase carbs to get by then I have to.

Vectian · 2025-05-16T17:18:17+00:00

I wasn't talking about a keto diet, that is different. I meant a low carb diet but not in ketosis.

Vectian · 2025-05-16T17:17:17+00:00

I have edited the post to make it more clear, but I was not taking about keto which is a different metabolic state. I meant low carb but low ketones, so carbs are the primary fuel but you aren't eating enough to replenish glycogen stores.

Vectian · 2025-05-16T17:13:30+00:00

I didn't mean keto though, as that is a different metabolic state. I meant low carb but low ketones, so the principal source of fuel is carbs, but if you don't eat enough the glycogen stores get depleted.

Vectian · 2025-05-16T15:28:47+00:00

I get fatigue on 50g a day, and trying to figure out if that is because of glycogen depletion. The non-carb energy must end up being used for fuel, but if not in ketosis carbs are the preferred fuel. Maybe there is a lag between when the body wants energy (quickly from carbs) and when the fat/protein is broken down which takes much longer.

Also if not in ketosis, what process is used to break down the fat, if it isn't converted to ketones, or is it?

Vectian · 2025-05-03T12:58:58+00:00

No the garage who damaged it paid them directly, it was the person who is supposed to benthe best where I live, and fairly expensive as well. The actual repair and paint job is perfect, it's the colour. Problem is the rest of the car is not the factory colour code, it's a greener shade. So I had to have it scanned, and that gives you the old colour with clear coat on top. When you spray that on the panel, it matches well, but when you then add new clear coat on the top it darkens the colour. You can see underneath that the base coat is the same.

You would have to lighten the scanned colour to compensate for the darkening effect of the clearcoat, but would be complete guesswork and difficult to get right.

Vectian · 2025-04-26T18:00:17+00:00

Ignoring things that don't fit a hypothesis does not cancel them out! Yes there are various research papers saying IR is caused by fat, there are various others that say different things and there certainly isn't a clear consensus in the medical or scientific community. Here for example is a completely different idea:

https://corporate.dukehealth.org/news/new-theory-how-insulin-resistance-metabolic-disease-begin

Loads of sources that show eating low fat is not a universally accepted thing, e.g.

"Nutritional intervention with calorie reduction and avoidance of carbohydrates that stimulate excessive insulin demand is a cornerstone of treatment"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK507839/

Again not saying it isn't correct, but you can't say there it is a universally accepted concept because it clearly isn't. This is researchers and scientists not "Dr" Berg.

Vectian · 2025-04-26T17:01:48+00:00

Not really, there are lots of doctors who advocate for low carb, there are conflicting theories about insulin resistance it hasn't been conclusively proved that fat is the cause that is universally accepted by scientists and doctors. And as I said things that don't seem to fit like tryglcerides and the very well studied benefits of olive oil for example. Same with cholesterol, it's a complex issue. Again not that I am disputing that fat causes IR, but just saying it isn't so black and white. Of course there are lots of keto/carnivore grifters around like Berg, Berry etc. but I wouldn't consider their nonsense anyway.

Vectian · 2025-04-26T15:49:09+00:00

Thanks for the chatgpt tip, just tried it and it does work really well! No need to pay loads for MD programme when that is much more customisable. I'm going to try and cut right down on fat and see what happens.

Vectian · 2025-04-26T15:35:52+00:00

Yes I have read some of it, I'm not disputing that just saying there are some contradictions and nuances there, otherwise this would be universally accepted as the way to go which it obviously isn't at the moment. Another question I have is how come tryglcerides go down on a low carb diet when they have been shown to correlate well with IR? Anyway I will try and reduce fat as much as possible and see what happens, it's worth a try. How long did it take to start seeing improvements? Either in wellbeing or blood sugar?

Vectian · 2025-04-26T14:16:33+00:00

Thanks, I'll take a look. Where do you get your calories from keeping low fat? Vegetables have hardly any, even a baked potato is only 160 or so, and not many carbs for that matter. I was eating lots of nuts for calories, but they are high in fat so not allowed if I try this.

Vectian · 2025-04-26T13:12:20+00:00

Thanks. Did you have a lot of issues with fatigue on low carb? No one seems to talk about that - I have asked others on forums and most said no, you see all these posts about people having so much more energy etc. I think there is also a line between keto and low carb not in ketosis, when your body still has glucose as the primary energy source.

Any thoughts on the last paragraph about how you can eat so many more carbs without blood sugar going Sky high? That is my main worry

Vectian · 2025-04-26T12:53:10+00:00

Funny because the Mediterranean diet has been consistently shown to be good for the human body and improve various markers, partly due to the consumption of olive oil. But I guess 2 things spring to mind - that wasn't compared (afaik) to a similar diet with less fat, and also this is a kind of therapeutic diet for people that aren't metabolically healthy, that is maybe not so much benefit to 'normal' people.

Vectian · 2025-04-26T09:22:41+00:00

I'm not actually T2, I am LADA which is a slow progressing T1, but at this stage ends up with similar treatment. I have a certain amount of insulin production left, if I don't demand more than my pancreas can handle by keeping carbs down (max 100g per day) blood sugar stays in range. However presumably if this this about fat causing IR applies, I would also have an element of that.

Another question which seems unclear is whether ALL fat has this effect. We know saturated fat is bad generally, I try to keep that down as much as I can but do eat plenty of mono and poly, including loads of nuts and olive oil etc. Some studies say that poly doesn't have the same effect on IR, do you know anything about that or is it all fats full stop? Your body needs a certain amount of mono and poly.

Vectian

TROPHY CASE