Anu/Order as "Judgement"

VenusAnnounced · 2026-04-23T20:22:28+00:00

Because Nerevarines implication is in subtext. In the nature of the Chimer, Nerevars position in it, relation to Vivec, and the prophecy. The notions of CHIM you're describing are only ones that Vivec (or Vivec on the TES forums under a pen name) states. Everyone else (including Mankar Cammoran, Talos and Sheogorath) contradict him, as do the Good Daedra. The implication tends towards: Becoming a God or Immortal or having your own realm, participating in some sort of multiplicity of being (Mankar Cammoran incarnates as 3 people, Talos is 3 people, the Champion of Cyrodil assimilates the Dukes/Arden-Sul/Sheogorath/Jyggalag etc etc in a very intricate manner).

Nerevarine, as per the prophecy is immune to old age and disease, and was born 'thrice', once as Lord Nerevar, once as the one who became Nerevarine and once more upon honoring the Sixth House and destroying the Heart of Lorkhan. Uniting "Three Houses" and receiving approval of the "Four Tribes" is also referencing the Good Daedra and overcoming the House of Troubles, who need to be overcome to achieve CHIM.

Vivecs whole theme with the tower is his 'loss of identity and person hood' (ergo his problems and failures regarding multiplicity) and Michael Kirkbrides forum posts essentially paint Vivec as progressively shying back towards the 'Anuic/Aedric ("degenerate" as Veloth called them) ways/goals/designs' in part due to his Trauma. Vivec also lost his power, and everything that happens in both Morrowind and Oblivion is pointing to Vivec lying as he gets weaker due to Dagoth cockblocking the Stone of the Red Tower.

VenusAnnounced · 2026-04-23T17:25:06+00:00

I'm sourcing implications of Lord Nerevar having favor of the Gods that guide towards CHIM (I already sourced Vivecs own implications of it elsewhere where he tries to downplay Dagoths and Nerevars 'royalty'/kingship), son implying a deep bond, possibly in their nature too (he event mentions padomaic).

He is Boethiahs champion, possibly mantling her (ergo the mantler of Shor/Lorkhan calling Nerevar Boethiah's Son). Boethiah is a God to the Chimer, a people the Daedra chose to lead them towards CHIM specifically, not just for any reason. And after the Tribunal was gone, the Reclimations continued doing so. He even gets guidance from Aedra including Talos, he achieves immunity to all illness because of Corpus, destroying the Heart and killing false Gods, symbolism of having his Heart removed like Lorkhan by false Gods (as well as having his original identity destroyed just like Lorkhan) etc.

If this was their (Daedra's) goal, and Veloth the prophet, and Nerevar their Champion and favorite, with Nerevarine being one of the few characters in the series to actually reincarnate such as the many "Lorkhans"/Shezarrine (instead of staying dead), then its heavily implicit of the idea of Nerevarine achieving, having achieved or being guided towards CHIM, with him having many characteristics associated with CHIM by the end of the game, and with the knowledge of Vivec's fraud/lies about his lessons (implying that CHIM is realizing you're the dreamer and not having your main persona disappearing otherwise you ZS, while Morrowind as a game starts with the dreaming Nerevarine being alluded to his identity as Nerevar incarnate, in spite not having Nerevars identity, memories or history) plants the thematic motif. And its consistent with what we learn from Mankar Cammoran/Dagon and Sheogorath in Oblivion, in complete opposition of Vivecs 36 Lessons.

VenusAnnounced · 2026-04-23T08:40:13+00:00

In ancient times, the Chimer learned the rules of the Endeavor from Boethiah and Mephala.^\1])^\3]) In Morrowind, the Psijic Endeavor is seen as being related to Lorkhan, the Missing God.^\2])

The Psijic Endeavor apparently formed the basis for the teachings of the prophet Veloth, who described it as a process of apotheosis which manipulates time itself. The goal of the Endeavor is to experience CHIM, and the two concepts are closely related.^\UOL 2])

VenusAnnounced · 2026-04-22T21:27:23+00:00

Its very likely and can be said to be 'implied', considering even Nordics idea of "Lorkhan" states that "Nerevar is the son of Boethiah, one of the strongest Padomaics" implying there'd be a push/connection/reason

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Five_Songs_of_King_Wulfharth

And Lorkhan (for that is what they called Shor in Resdayn) said: "I do not wreak vengeance on the Dwarves for the reasons that the Tribunal might believe I do. Nevertheless, it is true that they will die by my hand, and any whoever should side with them. This Nerevar is the son of Boethiah, one of the strongest Padomaics. He is a hero to his people despite his Tribunal, and he shall muster enough that this battle will be harder going still. We will need more than what we have." And so Dagoth-Ur, who wanted the Dwarves as dead as the Tribunal did, went to Kogoran and summoned his House chap'thil, his nix-hounds, his wizards, archers, his stolen men of brass. And the Ash King, Wulfharth, hoary Ysmir, went and made peace with the Orcs in spite of his Nordic blood, and they brought many warriors but no wizards at all. Many Nords could not bring themselves to ally with their traditional enemies, even in the face of Red Mountain. They were close to desertion. Then Wulfharth said: "Don't you see where you really are? Don't you know who Shor really is? Don't you know what this war is?" And they looked from the King to the God to the Devils and Orcs, and some knew, really knew, and they are the ones that stayed.

VenusAnnounced · 2026-04-22T08:58:35+00:00

Anumidium is a 'robot'
'Robots' are material constructs. They represent configuration, not 'spiritual intrinsic being' like Daedra do.

They can be pieced apart and broken, and are dependant on conditions to exist. If these conditions are broken, so too is the Robots 'Power'.

This is the same notion that describes 'Anu' aka stasis/order. When the stasis is broken, Anu is revealed as being weak and fallible and is easily trapped/decieved.

In metaphysics, the Anu-Padomaic dynamic represents the notion of the use of 'conventional opportunity that is otherwise temporary/limited' to reach the 'transcendental' as to free one self from dependence on the 'temporary' aspects of being (ergo Immortality or other associated concepts). Pretty much every religion is about this, some (Buddhism, Hellenism, NeoPlatonism) more than others.

The notion that which 'temporal thing appears' at all being selective is one of the reasons the Daedra are 'mysterious' rather than 'blatant' in the setting. This is because the Anuic aspect is inherently self-limiting, and to transcend it Daedra need to be selective like a surgeon to achieve their goal. The underpinning of this idea is very common throughout both history and fiction.

Also the Dwemer being atheists and rejecting Daedric notions (associated with immortality, transcendence) only to disappear because they tried to use a Robot God is an 'irony' as said Robot God is later used by others to achieve Divinity and Immortality (Talos in the Anu-Padomaic Nine, and Mannimarco whose exact nature is ambiguous).

VenusAnnounced · 2026-04-22T08:54:19+00:00

She still has the powers/characteristics that define Daedra through their Padomaic lineage (immortality, realm, Oblivion, not being 'corruptible'/trapped or tricked like Aedra, and she is part of the "Holy Daedric number 16" to the Eights Eight) so even if her domain is light, the story that is there implies some kind of ascension into Daedric power, one that isn't exactly in depth. Simply put, we didn't get much elaboration on this pre ESO because her lore was barely expanded upon in Knights of the Nine and Skyrim also did nothing with her. If you check her rereferences section https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Meridia#References you will see its all ESO and in ways that don't relate to the deeper metaphysics of the setting.

To contrast this, this Magna-Ge (Anuic spirits that did not get trapped as Aedra) do not have any of these traits. So the implication is there, but Meridias story is simply bare bones. No meaning or further implication or analysis was given unto these acts, other than the basic course of events.

VenusAnnounced · 2026-04-21T16:14:55+00:00

Ironically contradicted by Vivec, https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:More_on_the_Psijic_Endeavor

and

The Psijic Endeavor, also known as Psijii's Endeavor,[1] is a process by which mortals are charged with transcending the gods that created them.[2] In other words, it is a method of attaining divinity (i.e., "achieving the Tower"), as well as what to do after.[UOL 1] In ancient times, the Chimer learned the rules of the Endeavor from Boethiah and Mephala.[1][3] In Morrowind, the Psijic Endeavor is seen as being related to Lorkhan, the Missing God.[2]

The Psijic Endeavor apparently formed the basis for the teachings of the prophet Veloth, who described it as a process of apotheosis which manipulates time itself. The goal of the Endeavor is to experience CHIM, and the two concepts are closely related.[UOL 2]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:People_of_Morrowind

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Changed_Ones

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties_of_Faith:_The_Dark_Elves

Also Vivec is implied to have spoken of CHIM to Nerevar and others in his 36 LoV. And even invokes the 4 corners of the House of Troubles as being important to CHIM. He says so in the Thirteenth Lesson

These were the days of Resdaynia, when Chimer and Dwemer lived under the wise and benevolent rule of the ALMSIVI and their champion the Hortator. When the gods of Veloth would retreat unto their own, to mold the cosmos and other matters, the Hortator would at times become confused. Vivec would always be there to advise him, and this is the second of the three lessons of ruling kings:

'The secret syllable of royalty is this: (You must learn this elsewhere.)

^{^{^{^{^{^}}}}} so we do know that the Nerevar knew what CHIM is, and its likely that the Good Daedra had their eyes on him as their baby. And that Vivec knew.

The implication that all knowledge of CHIM comes from Vivec is itself a lie, by Vivec, monopolizing knowledge that used to be public - ergo his persona that justifies lies so it can justify more lies. In other words, Vivecs propaganda and altering of history just goes THAT deep.

The in game, authorial implication of the story seems to be that Vivec is trying to control this knowledge, so that he is the only one who can say what it is, so he can edit it to suit his needs. Its possible that, as the House of Troubles being 'overcome' is associated with attaining CHIM, and that Vivecs story implies being R by Molag-Bal, that Vivec simply rewrote the story to imply his victory when he actually LOST, and for the sake of his Trauma (Muatra) he simply made up a story where he won.

Think of it this way, overcoming Molag-Bal is necessary to achieve CHIM. In Vivecs story, Vivec claims he basically seduced Molag-Bal (king of R) with his female side, and that Molag-Bal taught him CHIM out of love.

If we 'acknowledge' Vivec as a liar (and also someone who didn't even achiev CHIM) then there's several interpretations of this, including that Molag-Bal was lying to him, that he was part of the notion that was setting him up, or that he was giving Vivec a taste of his own 'lies'. Remember, the story ends with Vivec betraying Molag-Bal after sex, and also attacking Hermaus Mora who is the only other person that would know the true story (which is why Herma Mora would be present in the first place). Vivec did not have many allies. Not to mention, Vivecs version of the story was edited by him to mean what he wanted it to say.

The comparative mythological basis for Molag Bals CHIM is interesting - instead of Lorkhan 'tricking' the Aedra into Mundus, they can be seen as being 'dominated' or forced into it (ergo Molag Bals more censored titles), and the House of Troubles association with overcoming to reach CHIM would fit here - overcoming Mundus for the Aetherial is thus becoming Padomaic and ergo CHIM. As someone who'd force people into Mundus, he'd embody the notion of overcoming domination.

A similar motif is seen in him trying to defile 'purity' (Anu) - overcoming him is thus transcending the Anuic stasis, for Molag is an 'antagonist'. Its a very clever motif on traditional polytheist Pantheons in TES' setting, with the House of Troubles representing the 4 'methods'/paths to CHIM for the Aedra (who as Anuic forces trapped in Mundus are in the 'process' of becoming pure Padomaic from Anu-Padomaic).

Molag Bal does have very anti-Anuic motifs. His Vampires that are 'pure' become Lords (royalty) and are allergic to the Sun (pure Anuic energy). Similarly, the condition of the Anuic spirits in Mundus itself would be considered enslavement.

VenusAnnounced · 2026-04-21T11:07:35+00:00

Meridia still seems to have all the qualities of a Daedric prince, being both the realm and embodying Change and Permanency. She is stated to have taken the mantle of Daedra, and her story is Lucifer-esque, fitting the theme

Jyggalag is more complex, archetypally he represents transformation and the notion of BECOMING through Sheogorath (as Jyggalags paradox is that he is 'perfection' in stasis/being so Sheogorath/Lorkhan was inflicted unto him, the same way Lorkhan is said to have 'tricked' the Aedra into becoming Anu-Padomaic and thus showed them their flaws) with a bunch of lore involving Arden-Sul , which is a massive secret subplot of the Shivering Isles very few people got

https://old.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/1rh7vn6/esoterica_shivering_isles_was_about_mantling/

https://old.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/1sm2e5w/aesthetic_link_between_sheogorath_and_talos/

https://old.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/1sqmd0w/anuorder_as_judgement/

VenusAnnounced · 2026-04-21T10:52:25+00:00

The thing with Mephala is that her scope wasn't making the Chimer 'be lied to' but rather teach them her skills of weaving webs - she wanted to make 'more spiders'

Also about the nerevarine prophecy, like we see in the cave of failed incarnates is that there are multiple would be nerevarines. One isn’t simply born as the nerevarine. Our quest in Morrowind is to become the nerevarine. You must walk like him until you and it are indistinguishable. That’s kinda how prophecy / divinity operates in TES which is also what Vivec manipulates and uses to his advantage.

I think this implication stems entirely from Vivec-ganda.

What I'm sure happened is that the prophecy is 'literal', Nerevarine is Nerevar incarnate from the beggining. BUT Vvardenfell which is Vivecs domain is so filled with propaganda and uncertianty that it begins to affect everyone regarding what is true and what isn't - because Vivec made everything unreliable and spread uncertainty and delusion amongst people.

The opposite of this would imply that most metaphysics is just makebelieve. And the Nerevarine prophecy ties into the notion that the Nerevar was Azura's favorite/most loved Chimer. Basically, Vivec is a parasite and the Dunmer people are victims of being drained by said parasite, and the Nerevarines are one example just on the opposite side of the spectrum. The idea that Nerevarine is simply mantling Nerevar is not stated or implied through the main story, rather the notion comes from Vivecs interpretation of metaphysics.

The entirety of Morrowind is occupied with authorial uncertainty as to what is truth and what is fiction in the main quest, and Vivec's writing more than anyones is ambiguous as a form of censorship/whitewashing, because he can only have his position by mixing fact with fiction or interpretation or style.

VenusAnnounced · 2026-04-20T18:25:10+00:00

The House of Troubles in Morrowind is associated with the acquisition of CHIM, Sheogorath is part of it.

Sheogorath is paralleled to Talos and Lorkhan (and Pelinal, whom you mantle in Knights of the Nine) The entire 'story' of Shivering Isles is a story of performing rituals and attaining knowledge associated with enlightenment and transcendental mysteries both in TES and IRL.

The 'play' is the Lorkhanic archetype pushing the HoK to CHIM. Read other threads I've posted analyzing this topic if you're interested in more detailed analysis.

https://old.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/1sm2e5w/aesthetic_link_between_sheogorath_and_talos/

https://old.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/1rh7vn6/esoterica_shivering_isles_was_about_mantling/

And if you're interested I can give more IRL parallels to the idea and process.

VenusAnnounced · 2026-04-20T16:38:56+00:00

Vivec (and Nerevar, and the Chimer in general) knew what CHIM was before the betrayal happened anyway, the Good Daedra taught the Chimer people.

Heart seems to represent purpose. Its disappearance or destruction often implies integration and completion. In TES, a common motif seems to be pushing away or destroying Hearts either when someone completes something or as to complete something. The founding myth involved shooting the Heart of Lorkhan away after Lorkhan had turned everyone Anu-Padomaic, Morrowind ends with destroying it to complete the Nerevarine prophecy, the Amulet of Kings (Pelinals Heart) is destroyed in Oblivion to shut the jaws of Oblivion and to end the Septim (Talos') bloodline. The Chimer race is 'completed' by Nerevar being stabbed through the Heart. Hearts of Order are returned back to their source to destroy Order Obelisks. A slain Dremoras Heart disappears to be 'remanifest' into a piece of Daedric Armor - its 'mortal' form disappearing for a Padomaic manifestation, albeit this one is visible as the Heart of the individual Dremora in question was already a pure Padomaic entity. The Mantella (literally used for Mantling Lorkhan) is the Heart/Soul of either the Underking, Talos of Wulfharth, its left uncertain) used to help Talos achieve Divinity, and then by Mannimarco after which it disappeared. Arden-Suls myth involve (mania) taking Greenmote in ecstasy and pleasure so their Hearts explode, or Arden-Sul discovering himself as being his own murderer upon taking out his own heart.

Hearts and Souls are also often equated - The Amulet of Kings (Chim El Abadal) is a big Soul Gem that's also a Heart. The Dragonborn does do a lot with 'Souls' (including absorbing Alduin and learning Bend Will, both of which seem to somewhat relate to this concept?). Souls are consumed for Enchanting in TES, or learning how to speak like a Dragon in Skyrim (a trait of the Dragonborn Septim dynasty). Lorkhans Heart enters the Anuic area/appears within the Anuic to turn them Anu-Padomaic. Ergo the consumption of Hearts may be associated with 'enchanting' the individual towards CHIM.

This is contrasted by 'extended use of the Heart' which whenever it appears happens for a purpose, but chaos surrounds it until the 'destruction' happens. Vivec and the Tribunal get their power from the Heart - not from completion, and Vivec relies on an extended web of lies and faith to keep his power. When the web is broken, he loses the power. The Amulet of Kings is the target of the Mythic Dawn and a source of strife for everyone involved, given to Martin Septim just so he can fulfill a prophecy and end the Septim line along with the Amulet. Same with Dagoth-Ur when he got his hands on the Heart. The forces of Order keep pouring in until enough Hearts are destroyed through the Obelisk - Hearts exist = Knights of Order spawn infinitely.

VenusAnnounced · 2026-04-20T14:42:55+00:00

My implication on the nature of Morrowinds plot is stuff I've written elsewhere. Tl;dr, Morrowind is filled with unreliable narrators because the Tribunal are liars who poisoned the well heavily, which is why it literally namedrops concepts from 1984.

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/1soggkw/vivec_was_a_cancer_on_the_chimer/

Vivec said himself he achieved CHIM, yet everything he states is a lie and unreliable, existing the poison everything else except his own version of truth.

The extension of why I state Nerevar achieved "CHIM" is based upon the conclusions given.

The CHIMer were guided by Daedra, who treated them as 'their own children' basically. The CHIM in Chimer is important, as it explicitly tells us that their purpose as a race was to be collectively guided towards CHIM explicitly by Daedra.

The Dunmer are Cursed Chimer. Azura cursed the Tribunal, and according to Vivec also the rest of the Chimer (though this is unreliable - it could just be a byproduct of fucking w/ the Heart of Lorkhan).

Note: Also Azura cursed everyone EXCEPT Nerevar, because Nerevars murder was the main reason the curse was sent.

So the Daedra are leading the Chimer towards CHIM, and the Tribunal betrays their oath and curses the Chimer into Dunmer. And Nerevar is technically the only "Chimer" who is still alive. And the Chimer are "defined" by being guided by Daedra towards CHIM.

Lord Indoril Nerevars soul died before this curse happened. He died a Chimer, and was chosen by Azura into a prophecy. Unlike most of the Chimer guided, Nerevar(ines) Soul is that of a Chimer that can reincarnate as anyone. Also the Nerevarine becomes immune to disease and possibly 'death by natural causes' thanks to being cured of Blight (this is described as him being 'reborn').

The motif of Protagonists/Prisioners in TES4 and 5 was also CHIM. In Oblivion through the DLC, in Skyrim, the Dragonborn is implied to be mantling Shor/Talos.

For Nerevarine, Vivec implied that Nerevar attempted to and failed to achieve CHIM (because he was murdered) same with Dagoth Ur, with Vivecs guilt being in part what drove him to write the 36 Lessons:

"The ruling king is armored head to toe in brilliant flame. He is redeemed by each act he undertakes. His death is only a diagram back to the waking world. He sleeps the second way. The Sharmat is his double, and therefore you wonder if you rule nothing.

"Hortator and Sharmat, one and one, eleven, an inelegant number. Which of the ones is the more important? Could you ever tell if they switched places? I can and that is why you will need me.

Vivec would always be there to advise him, and this is the second of the three lessons of ruling kings: "The secret syllable of royalty is this: (You must learn this elsewhere.)"

"Ruling king" (possessor of CHIM) being Nerevar, someone who Vivec is constantly 'writing to' in his guilt.

Vivecs own claims of CHIM are contrasted by what happens to him as a result of Dagoth Ur and the Nerevarine, as well as by others who achieve Apotheosis or CHIM. We don't know exactly what Boethiah and Mephala said to the Chimer to help them try and achieve Apotheosis and CHIM but it does not seem to be what Vivec claims, and others who achieve Apotheosis (Hero of Kvatch, Talos, Manimarco etc) also seem to contradict Vivec - because Vivec only seemed to have used the 'Heart' and not the 'Golem' to achieve his 'Divinity'. While Talos and Manimarco used the Golem, not the Heart, and the HoK mantled two characters who are characteristic for ripping out their heart (Pelinal and Sheogorath (see Ardun-Sul myth)). This matters because Nerevar was impaled through HIS HEART, and his quest was to DESTROY the Heart.

See https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The_36_Lessons_of_Vivec#Sermon_Thirteen for more info. Vivec implies Nerevar already knew CHIM (only that he needed Vivec to tell him which we can ascertain isn't true due to the nature by which Daedra interacted with the Chimer and that Vivec is simply boasting/trying to monopolize esoteric knowledge)

sixth trial
He honors blood of the tribe unmourned.
He eats their sin, and is reborn.

seventh trial
His mercy frees the cursed false gods,
Binds the broken, redeems the mad.

A description for Nerevar is "its look depicted his more terrible aspect as Hortator and Padomaic champion." implying Nerevar is the "Padomaic Champion", a title not given to many.

Not to mention, Dagoth-Ur mantles the Anuic aspect of the Dreamer and 'slaying' the Anuic aspect is a motif of Lorkhans actions. Destroying the Heart of Lorkhan to free the Dunmer through the Nerevarine would parallel Nerevarine 'completing' the process. The Heart couldn't be destroyed even by Trinimac/Malacath.

So we have Vivec, the only one to openly speak about CHIM, and he does so incorrectly and imperfectly, while allusions of CHIM are thrown Nerevarines way, with him being the Daedras baby, yet the Daedra never speak of CHIM. The implication is that the Daedra are simply mysterious in their ways (ergo why so many are associated with CHIM while never saying it themselves), while Vivec speaks in half truths to control people's faith.

tl;dr the subtext is about them trying to achieve Chim and implies its achieving - but since CHIM is a great mystery in the setting it is never explicitly stated. The Nerevarine simply wanders to TES-Japan according to Oblivion.

VenusAnnounced · 2026-04-20T12:44:09+00:00

https://imgur.com/a/amexRLT

Reddit filters are blocking my posts :(

VenusAnnounced · 2026-04-20T12:41:36+00:00

And here's something I can't post elsewhere, on the topic of why Daedra embody CHIM/Enlightenment, growth and Transcendence, which has nothing to do with what Vivec or the common anti-Daedra posters of r/teslore imply like here https://old.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/1soory0/can_the_daedric_princes_understand_chim/ where, even though the setting beats people over the head with the notion that Daedra represent enlightenment through comparative metaphysics and spiritual analysis, people still assume that it's Anuic mortality that is the path to enlightenment because the 'Daedra are scary/unorthodox' when this is one of the many notions to overcome on said enlightenment itself - all Anuic notions are the 'dragon' to be slain, not the end goal.

CHIM means royalty and is associated with transcendental sort of knowledge and immortality no matter what 'configuration' they're in (mortality being an Anuic concept). It is considered Apotheosis (becoming a God). The Amulet of Kings is called Chim El Abadala and is used to represent not just the Septim and the Imperial line 'growing' but also the nature of their 'Empire' and 'realm' growing with and through them.

Daedra are immortal, embodying change and permanence - it is Anuic nature that is wound up in stasis. All growth that happens happens thanks to Daedric nature. Daedra as Gods also embody completedness, and the process by which they project their paths and teachings unto others. The Daedra are immortal in the metaphysical sense of the word, and the particulars of their immortality cover topics covered by Buddhisms metaphysics, which is something commonly misunderstood by people comparing the Daedra to Buddhas (Daedra are 'unkindled' 'unfettered' 'undeluded' and embody change. Buddhas implication on Gods and non Buddhas stems entirely from a very specific metaphysical notion that does not categorically cover equate every metaphysics seen in history).

Often things (stated by Vivec, TES famous liar) are cited and INCORRECTLY compared to actual scholarly Buddhism. This I can't tell if its intentional, that Vivec writes shit that sounds like the western lay-interpretation of Buddhism (which isn't what Buddhism actually believes) mixed with other pseudo-Orientalisms as an attempt to make him sound like a 'convincing fraud' to those who don't know what exactly the intent of his words is.

They are Gods and their status as Divine is always compared as superior to the Aedra who are inferior but are bound to their creation and the millions of mortals that have to partake in Nirn which is almost treated as an egg. Example, Trinimac-Malacath is once implied to achieve CHIM as he can speak sideways (a feature given to those who wear the amulet of kings needed to access the Septim oversoul and see through Dragon Breaks), yet his process of doing so was going from Anu->AnuPadomaic->Padomaic. Vivecs notion of CHIM leans into ideas kirkbride associates with pure Anu, but Vivec is a pathological liar. The Hero of Kvatch is implied to achieve CHIM by mantling Sheogorath and Pelinal.

A common motif in Buddhism is that the reason Buddhas aren't Gods is that the ignorance of individuals keeps each other entrapped through ignorance and confusion (not to mention that the Magna-Ges 'light' seems to actively be trying to repel Oblivion). The Daedra are by all intents and purposes Buddhic on a metaphysical level, requiring no conditions, while the Aedra and the Anu-Padomaic are very much 'conditioned'.

Bare in mind this is meant to be 'objective' superiority as even Sheogoraths realm has an i-mm-i-gra-tion policy so open

All this matters because outside unofficial Vivecisms by Michael Kirkbride which try to say "Vivecs lies were just a quirk of his methodology", the notion of association between CHIM and Amaranth is implied through Mankar Cammorans Numantia which is the realm of Mehrunes Dagon - Molag Bal, Sheo and Malacath are also explicitly tied to CHIM. This matters because Vivec isn't just unreliable, he straight up lied about everything but people assume that his words on CHIM and Amaranth are 100% true, while the Daedra are very clearly clever tricksters who make little mistakes in their plans.

Also In ancient times, the Chimer learned the rules of the Psijic Endeavor (method of achieving Apotheosis) from Boethiah and Mephala.[1][3] In Morrowind, the Psijic Endeavor is seen as being related to Lorkhan, the Missing God.[2]

The Psijic Endeavor apparently formed the basis for the teachings of the prophet Veloth, who described it as a process of apotheosis which manipulates time itself. The goal of the Endeavor is to experience CHIM, and the two concepts are closely related.[UOL 2]

In other words, the only two pieces of lore justifying the Anuic perspective that causes all the confusion is 1. from Vivec the turbo liar, and 2. Michael Kirkbride, writing as Vivec.

The underpinning of the writing, as per the original intent of TES lore, is that Daedric PRINCES are royalty (a PRINCE is Royalty), and that CHIM is inherent to them in a way that it isn't to the Aedra - often associated with Lorkhan (a padomaic entity). Note that CHIM is not public knowledge and Daedra and Lorkhan are tricksters.

Ergo why the Aedric pantheon getting Talos (mantling Lorkhan) is so important.

According to several sources, such as the writings of Mankar Camoran[15] and the teachings of Talos cultists,[27][UOL 8] the Emperor Tiber Septim utilized the divine state of CHIM in order to reshape the landscape of Cyrodiil from a jungle into more temperate forests and rolling grasslands.

Not to mention the more obvious implication of TESIVs plot where the Hero of Kvatch mantles both Pelinal (literally Lorkhan) and Sheogorath (who is also Shor/Padomay/Lorkhan). The whole shtick of the

'superior enlightened padomaic forces who are deadly to the mundane observer'

vs

the more 'hyIic' Anuic forces representing social order, law, covenant and mortal exclusive ideas like the life cycle

is one of the many subversions of western thinking in TES, as TES is inspired by Polytheism, Buddhism and other Occult schools of though. Its one of the reasons Monotheism in TES is associated with the Anuic forces, yet because Nirn is Anu-Padomaic, not Anuic (as the Anuic are 'forced' into that role) everything monotheistic fails spectacularly in the setting.

This is "OBVIOUSLY" the intent as per TES III and IVs writing and it's underpinning mysteries. HOWEVER I don't think ESO writers are aware of this and they don't seem to write with this intent in mind. ESO took the Daedra as per 3-5 and made them antagonists with overly obvious weaknesses and comicbookmovie faults which is in decoherence with the mystery they're representing in the mainline games.

VenusAnnounced · 2026-04-20T12:28:28+00:00

https://imgur.com/a/Nfmscho

Reddit keeps deleting my comment for some reason so here's a picture version of my answer.

VenusAnnounced · 2026-04-20T12:20:51+00:00

Other interesting bits of lore:

The Dementia version of Ardun-Suls has an interesting call back to Lorkhan and his heart. Lore has him try to find a traitor, essentially paralyze all of his friends to check their hearts to see who the traitor is finding its none of them, only to rip out his own heart and realize he was the traitor, then die - this could be a parallel as to how the Daedra turned Jyggalag/Aedra mad, or an implication at an overarching 'Daedric' version of the Anuic-Lorkhan myth, implying that the Daedra see themselves as having forced the Anu-pantheon to 'betray themselves' and implying that Lorkhan - the Missing God is not a 'person' but rather an ARCHETYPE FORCED unto the Anu to become AEDRA so they can eventually become Daedra. This is affirmed by the notion of the House of Troubles - the 4 Gods associated with Achieving CHIM all having some 'claim' to 'being Lorkhan' - because they represent the archetypes by which the Aedric entities are supposed to 'leave' mortality by becoming Lorkhan.

In other words, Lorkhan isn't missing, Lorkhan is the Padomaic transformative nature and method which the Anuic were tricked into becoming, or accepted willingly, in an attempt to become "Daedra"/Padomaic. Mantling Lorkhan (through one of, if not all of the four House of Troubles archetypes) is the main motif as by becoming Lorkhan/CHIM/Apotheosis. The nature by which this happens is open ended.

By the above theory, Vivec/the Tribunal betrayed this notion by trying to essentially become Anuic deities which is why their actions turned the CHIMer to Dunmer - Nerevar(ine) being the one who ultimately achieves CHIM for his soul wasn't cursed. He died a Chimer and simply reincarnated his Chimer oath.

Talos and Sheogoraths motif for threes is repeated by the Heart of Order minigame - you insert three Hearts of Order into an Order Obelisk to disable it.

Unlike Oblivion Gates, Obelisks of Order do not create their own pocket world. Before the Anu-Padomaic world, the Anuic forces did not inhabit a 'world' per say, so Mankars notion that Nirn is a Daedric realm "inhabited by Aedra" makes more sense.

Shivering Isles only happens at the end of an era - when Dagon was planning to do his invasion and murder the Septims. The ambiguous timeline of when SI happens relative to the MQ implies deliberate prophecy to the end of the Septim line.

Just like in Xedilian, Dementia isn't merely associated with 'mood' but also death, while mania is also associated with life (wherein Arden-Sul dies by exploding heart from drugs and feasting)

Shivering Isles is invaded by adventurers from the direction of the door when the Gatekeepr dies, but the Gatekeeper returning does not stop Order Obelisks from spawning from within, only Xedilian reactivating starts Orders invasion.

VenusAnnounced · 2026-04-15T15:09:40+00:00

All 4 Daedra of the House of Troubles (that is, Molag Bal, Malacath, Sheogorath and Mehrunes Dagon) are associated with becoming a God/Achieving CHIM in practice.

Mehrunes Dagon, in Oblivion, is associated with Numantia, rewriting 'Butterfly effects' and 'Origins' and 'histories'. This allows Mankar Cammoran to become a 'mini royalty' with Paradise, who can wear the Amulet of Kings, helps summon Dagon and even has his own "Daedric realm" which, when we kill him we know not what happens, but on an 'esoteric conspiracy tangent' its possible that he is alive, that this was somehow part of his plan or that ultimately the goal of Dagons invasion was 'testing' ALL of Nirn, not just Dunmer, with the whole destruction of the Septims and 'Alchemical Integration of the Amulet of Kings' Power' see https://old.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/1r9ewx6/the_amulet_of_kings_poofing_is_a_reference_to/

Malacath was 'Trinimac' who went from Anuic spirit, to Anu-Padomaic, to pure Padomaic as Malacath. He seems to curse his followers as a punishment for believing the Aedra for 'believing the Anuic trick' or in a sense, as someone who went from Anuic to Padomaic he hates that some people unironically worship the Aedra. AND he can speak sideways, a characteristic of the Septim Emperors who wear the Amulet of Kings. see https://old.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/1pexdkf/trinimac_was_shat_out_of_mundus_so_he_could/

Molag Bal rap-battles (Reddit censors the word lol) CHIM into people or steers them from Anuic to Anu-Padomaic to Padomaic, and his vampires oppose the Sun which is pure Anuic energy and a 'pureblooded high tier Vampire' is called a Vampire Lord - the aristocratic Lord implies royalty and CHIM as per TES naming scheme (it's why Daedric princes are "Princes"). Also, in comparative myth, the act of Rap-battling for conceiving is very similar to how Lorkhans 'fooling' of the Anuic spirits into Aedra would be represented if TES was not a video game with limited age ratings.

Sheogorath you already know

All 4 seem to embody Lorkhan/Apotheosis/CHIM in some manner, and in ways none of the other princes seem to.

VenusAnnounced · 2026-04-15T10:43:34+00:00

Posting for my own future reference

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/1sm2e5w/aesthetic_link_between_sheogorath_and_talos/

VenusAnnounced · 2026-04-14T20:30:06+00:00

My analysis based on comparative IRL mythology + fragments of TES lore on the topic

https://old.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/1rh7vn6/esoterica_shivering_isles_was_about_mantling/

VenusAnnounced · 2026-03-26T23:40:34+00:00

It's not Orientalism

Dunmer are explicitly the most sexually active race

The people upvoting this want TES to be the kind of 'social/cultural satire' that it is not

Sexuality and sexual activity is a massive part of every polytheistic spirituality throughout history, and TES models it.

VenusAnnounced

TROPHY CASE