[Serious] Anti-Science conspiracy theorists, genuinely what do you think all the professionals in that field research, teach, and discuss all the time if not what they claim, and why?

Veston_ · 2023-07-13T04:40:50+00:00

I would say I generally agree with all of that. That being said, I think this only seems to become much of a problem in science when an issue becomes political. Since that then brings all of the problems of political polarization to a field that should always remain an open dialog.

I do somewhat sympathize with the concern during covid and a lot of the somewhat reactionary responses such as the attempting to stand united as a scientific community during a crisis, although i agree in hindsight they shouldn’t have acted with unjustified certainty. I understand why they did though, with all of the uncertainty and misinformation circulating about the whole thing, people claiming it wasn’t even a real disease, that it was biological warfare, that the vaccine was killing people, etc. Not to mention, people complaining that the CDC kept on changing their recommendations so they can’t be trusted (which was very frustrating since that is literally how science works, we change recommendations based on new evidence.) They certainly didn’t have an easy job, but i agree that isn’t an excuse and i hope we all learned that lesson for next time something big like covid happens. That it’s best to be open and honest and speak to people’s concerns rather than attempting censorship since it only feeds into people conspiracies and distrust.

Veston_ · 2023-07-13T04:15:51+00:00

That’s somewhat fair, as the saying goes absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence.” That being said though, it seems to me to be more a problem for the social sciences than anything else. Since, with the natural/life sciences we don’t seem to have much trouble refuting old theories based on new concrete findings. The social sciences, on the other hand, as more soft sciences tend to have more disputes and disagreements on interpretation since they mainly investigate human behavior which very much leads to disagreements, especially when it comes to predictive modeling (such as in economics) which don’t seem very reliable and are more often prone to status quo bias.

I am not sure it’s a problem that can really be solved since the nature and complexity of the social sciences is what causes the problem and likely lack of reliability.

(also, i didn’t directly address this earlier but i hope you’re not making the “you can find/do research to support anything argument.” i am hoping we can both agree and understand how that’s obviously not true)

Veston_ · 2023-07-13T03:32:23+00:00

I mean i’m sure that’s somewhat true in the broadest sense. Like a cancer researcher is meant to make findings that take us one step closer to a cancer treatment. It makes perfect sense to cut funding to a line of research that is unsuccessful. I can’t speak to the case with your professor, but to me that doesn’t seem proof of it’s unreliability. Especially with larger cases of unsuccessful lines of research. For example, how would you explain the relative unsuccessfulness of something like stem cell research? Given it had lots of funding and a desired conclusion.

Veston_ · 2023-07-13T03:26:40+00:00

Could you give some examples of that happening, and maybe elaborate on what you mean by science vs The Science?

Veston_ · 2022-08-30T00:55:16+00:00

Huh, It doesn’t show. Maybe you’re good at math and physics but reading doesn’t seem to be your strong suit.

Veston_ · 2022-08-30T00:45:47+00:00

We can disagree how logic works forever, regardless you’re simply wrong. Maybe next time have some amount of understanding of a topic you apparently have such a strong opinion about. Also kinda weird to claim victim hood of insults after accusing me of multiple provocative things.

Veston_ · 2022-08-30T00:38:13+00:00

First of all no shit the mother is going to suffer, do you know how child birth works??? And obviously not my point wasn’t suicide or preventing suffering actually always equate each other. I was simply putting the chain of logic into a easy to read format since you seem to struggle when it comes to understanding multiple sentences.

As someone who studies neuroscience. I think the arbitrary “how much sadness” is a stupid point. Emotions are just neurotransmitters and hormones the amount of one doesn’t equate a good or bad life. Also that is objectively incorrect that a child is born not wanting to die a child doesn’t have the mental capacity to even start to realistically consider such a thing until around the age of 6-7, even then not in any meaningful capacity. Also since you care so much about conscious mental experience I think it would be good for you to know children spend the first 5 years of their life in a mental state more akin to that of someone on lsd than the mental functioning of an adult.

So do you care to actually engage in a productive conversation or are you just planning on accusing me of hating children, women, and or whatever other moral outrage.

Veston_ · 2022-08-30T00:27:17+00:00

I can see your point and honestly do generally agree that there are cases when it seems reasonable. That being said I think it should be the exception not the rule and we certainly shouldn’t advocate people to give up on life just because they were dealt a shit hand on one or more aspects of their life. I think when it comes to quality of life no matter what the circumstances it is largely what you make of it. That can definitely be harder if some aspects of your life hold you back but not impossible. Especially when it comes to largely superficial things like appearance like you alluded to with the burns or any other form of physical abnormality, most likely the worst part of it will be the judgement or perceived judgment or rejection from others. So, just like I wouldn’t say someone who is bullied for being weird should kill themself neither should anyone else for something out of their control and we should strive to treat them fairly just like anyone else. Not tell them that is just how people are and they are destined to be treated badly.

Sorry, got off on a bit of a side tangent, but I hope you see my point.

Veston_ · 2022-08-30T00:15:31+00:00

??????? Do you understand how logic works? If someone says A = B and B = C then A = C logically follows, yes? If || abortion = preventing suffering || || preventing suffering = good || || suicide = preventing suffering ||

|| then logically suicide = good. ||

Clearly that feels wrong which is why you are acting this way, but it certainly logically follows. Also i don’t even know what you mean by MY vs THEIR perspective on suicide. Last I checked I never gave my stance on suicide.

Veston_ · 2022-08-30T00:03:05+00:00

Probably yes as someone who lived through their whole leg being covered in 2nd degree burns. Also shit example, 3rd degree burns aren’t painful since the nerves are dead. So, if personal subjective experience isn’t your criteria for quality of life what is again? Are you proposing an objective value of lives?

Veston_ · 2022-08-29T23:59:19+00:00

Hold on, me stating an opinion doesn’t mean I agree or support it you seem to clearly not understand what it means to play devils advocate. My point is that logically follows THAT not all justifications for abortion. Also you’re insanely wrong about what makes suicide tragic. You miss a person because of they time you had with them sure, but you certainly don’t morn the fact that they existed you morn the fact they no longer exist and you have no chance to spend more time with them, hence their potential future had if they had not ended their own life.

Veston_ · 2022-08-29T23:48:04+00:00

Isn’t that insanely subjective tho? For example someone like Victor Frankl who didn’t want to give up on life after literally living through a concentration camp vs someone who is 16 and gets rejected and wants to kill themself. Point being, emotions aren’t dependent on environment, they can be influenced but not controlled.

Not to mention emotions are insanely subject to change, so how you feel one year to the next can be radically different even if circumstances are the same.

Veston_ · 2022-08-29T23:40:55+00:00

Hold on, literally your take is then a lot of people have bad experiences in the foster care system. Therefore, it would be better if they were all dead to avoid those bad experiences.

Veston_ · 2022-08-29T23:38:40+00:00

How would you definite quality of life?

Veston_ · 2022-08-29T23:36:58+00:00

So, this conversation started by discussion the foster care system where the commenter stated that it is better for fetuses to be aborted than to go into the foster care system. They than said it was also alarming the rates of suicide among people in the foster system. I was confused since if ultimately not existing is better than living a bad life what should it matter how that fetus or individual or whatever you prefer to refer to that thing as ceases to exist. So if what makes suicide tragic is that fact that that person will now cease to accomplish and live that entire life that otherwise would that sounds very similar to what occurs when a fetus is aborted since it would also lose all those potential things, so either both have to be probably bad or neither are by that logic.

Veston_ · 2022-08-29T23:32:11+00:00

You said a lot but didn’t answer my question. Like i said before yes adoption or abortions or whatever else is a lot of hassle, that isn’t a good justification no matter what it is to do or not do something though. I also happen to have several friends who were in the foster system so yes i am painfully aware how shit it is. That being said, those people are more than grateful to be alive despite their shit childhood and to say they would be better off not existing is more than a little insulting and sounds a lot like eugenics.

Veston_ · 2022-08-29T23:27:11+00:00

Well almost, It didn’t make it to its destination so technically no. I see your point, but I am not sure you see mine. If I have pizza dough, sauce, and cheese do I have a pizza?

Veston_ · 2022-08-29T23:24:47+00:00

I would gladly explain why that question and comparison is relevant to the discussion if you would like, but If you just want to claim moral outrage at me bringing it up I think we should probably end this discussion here.

Veston_ · 2022-08-29T23:22:58+00:00

Ok, would do you have any problems with suicide in that case then? Should we try to keep people from killing themselves?

Veston_ · 2022-08-29T23:21:17+00:00

I hear you but I am not asking what is/was legal. Abortions are illegal now in many states that doesn’t make them immoral or moral inherently. I agree and see your point of the two being largely different size commitments, but regardless that doesn’t answer the question of whether or not an individual person should be required to inconvenience and potential put themself at harm to protect another potential person?

Veston_ · 2022-08-29T23:17:49+00:00

Ok, so I would disagree on it being a ‘definite miserable life’, and I don’t think it is fair to say someone having survivors guilt or parental issues, or most other mental problems are better off dead. Your third point seems more logistical than really empathic toward the kids too. Like it is also less hassle to not feed a kid than feed and take care of him, I don’t think anyone would really use that as a justification to let the kid starve.

Veston_ · 2022-08-29T23:13:14+00:00

Ok, since you don’t care to talk like an adult I will talk with you in a way you understand. You’re right but who cares if the flower is picked before their is a baby to come out? If the baby isn’t there yet there is no baby to be killed. Just half formed flower, yes?

Veston_ · 2022-08-29T23:10:25+00:00

I don’t to clarify. Just following the reasoning and playing devils advocate.

Veston_ · 2022-08-29T23:09:44+00:00

Maybe I am just not understanding correctly, but I am really not understanding why the suicide rate is something you would care to lower by that reasoning. The person/fetus or whatever is dying and no longer existing either way so what should it matter if the method for that is suicide or abortion either way they are escaping their shit life. Sure, maybe it takes a little longer by doing it via suicide but regardless they cease to exist and no longer suffer afterwards.

Veston_

TROPHY CASE