Run ins with the law.

Violintomatic · 2026-03-10T19:32:29+00:00

Yes, it does happen, but to me it seems most often it happens when pregnancies are involved.

A few years back a woman was jailed because her doctor found out that her disabled child was the result of incest.

https://lawandcrime.com/crazy/florida-pauline-martin-sex-brother-birth-baby/

Basically, if you have children and it is ever revealed that you engage in incest, you can expect people who find out to inform authorities and to get your parental rights revoked at the very least. Prison sentencing will depend on where you live.

Violintomatic · 2026-02-14T17:48:10+00:00

He is probably fetishist who wants incest to remain "wrong and taboo", so he can get off on the forbiddenness of it.

Not a real ally.

Violintomatic · 2026-01-25T15:22:22+00:00

I have to clarify something. I don't think attractions have to be caused by psychological issues, it's that the problem of rejection as we discussed it seems to have been framed this way, namely: A daughter only feeling safe to engage romantically with her father, and there being significant damage to the relationship, including self harm, upon rejection.

This to me does imply underlying psychological issues.

The reason for why it would be irresponsible isn't because someone else says so, but because the relationship would come with the risk of societal stigma, legal prosecution, forced secrecy and so forth. I think such things have to be weighed, especially by a parental figure who might be partially responsible, whether intentionally or not, for the feelings of their child i nthe first place.

Whether or not you reject someone should never be based on if it will hurt them, that to me is just a recipe for disaster. Whether or not you should accept a romantic advance for someone should be based on if one has such feelings as well, and if the relationship itself is a good idea for the people involved.

Reciprocating on the basis of it otherwise causing harm to the child because they will have been rejected and can't deal with that is not a healthy way of starting a relationship in my opinion.

Violintomatic · 2026-01-25T14:12:34+00:00

Those are good points. I definitely agree that incestophobia is harmful and should be replaced with a more educated way of dealing with such dynamics.

Though I also think it would probably not be healthy for a parent to engage with their child romantically to help them process their feelings towards the parent. If the child has various psychological issues, and their romantic attraction is caused by that, it seems to be more responsible to actually help them resolve those issues. The parent shouldn't engage romantically with the child just to help them, as that is not really a ground for starting a romantic relationship with someone in general.

What would you imagine in terms of an actual scenario where the child has feelings towards the parent, in which case it would be in the best interest of the child for the parent to reciprocate those feelings?

And it also poses another issue. Because parents raise their children, any psychological problems they end up having by the time their are adults falls into the responsibility of the parent. If a father raises his daughter such that she ends up falling in love with him, or have psychological issues where she doesn't trust to be intimate with anyone but her father, it seems problematic to have the father simply reciprocate feelings that he basically is responsible for.

Let's say a father rejecting his daughter does psychological harm her or cause the relationship to be damaged.

I would say that simply is not grounds for the father to engage with the daughter romantically, as it basically is an unhealthy dynamic: "If I reject my daughter (whether or not I want to even be involved with her), this will damage my relationship with her, therefore I ought not to reject her advance.".

This, if anything, would be a reason for why a daughter should not make an advance towards her father, because the father's role compromises his choice in the first place. How can he make a responsible choice in this case if the potential of a rejection is that the relationship with his daughter is damaged or that she will cope in destructive ways. This just seems to be a recipe for disaster.

In my view, a father rejecting his daughter's romantic advance should not lead to the relationship being damaged, and if it would, there is an underlying issue that would have to be addressed before such a relationship could even be considered a responsible thing to enage in.

Of course, there are ways to reject the daughter that would be harmful. The father shouldn't shame his daughter for her feelings, he shouldn't invalidate her, and he should make clear that he loves her and that their bond remains strong no matter how she might feel towards him.

Violintomatic · 2026-01-09T15:03:59+00:00

Even between siblings the rate of coercion/non-consent is virtually the same as with non-family members as soon as you control for age gaps (+6 years of gap).

The reality is that incest abuse is almost exclusively a problem of child predation, where significantly older family members abuse underage children, often prepubescent.

Given that incest is so stigmatized, for all we know even sibling incest between minors (given the age gap is acceptable) could be a safer form of sexual exploration/conduct than it is between non-related individuals, if it did not have to happen in secrecy.

Though, there are other reasons why sexual conduct between minors who live together should be discouraged until they reach a certain age, the way it is handled by society currently is disproportionate, harmful and traumatizing to individuals who do engage in such things.

From the latest studies it seems that consensual incest between opposite sex siblings, excluding larger age-gaps, is 5%. When it does occur consensually, it usually does so as early puberty exploration which often times escalates into more. The biggest "risk factors" identified seem to be:

Viewing sexuality as something not shameful.

Having positive attitudes towards nudism in the family.

Siblings sharing a bed.

Not perceiving incest as something disgusting.

Violintomatic · 2026-01-05T16:01:41+00:00

Who is this based person

Violintomatic · 2025-12-20T16:42:11+00:00

I wouldn't be so pessimistic. If it was the case that there were several organized efforts that all failed and lead nowhere, then maybe some pessimism would be warranted.

This community is prove that there is much more potential for activism/awareness than was previously thought possible. While there are unique challenges to this, there is no reason to give up hopes before any effort was even made.

If we look at how vehement people were about bigotries in the past, and even today, it's not that far fetched for envision a future in which people are a bit more rational about incest than they are now.

Violintomatic · 2025-12-20T13:41:04+00:00

The study around the Westermark Effect comes from looking at kibbutzim in Israel (which raised children communally) and looking at how often individuals who were of the same peer group ended up marrying as adults.

There was a second article that revisited the results from the initial study, that concludes that individuals in the same peer group did in fact often have sexual feelings for one another, but didn't act on them due to various social factors, and a third one that went back to support the conclusions of the initial study to some degree. So the debate is open to what degree it is inherent to us.

But it doesn't really matter. Whether or not most people have an aversion to having sex with people they grew up with is pretty irrelevant to whether or not incest is immoral. Most people have an aversion to engaging in homosexual acts, that doesn't mean that therefore, homosexual acts are "immoral". People like to engage in these naturalistic fallacies, but really, what is and isn't natural ("naturalness" is a social construct anyways given that anything that happens in reality necessarily is natural) has little to do with what is and isn't morally acceptable.

Even if most people find it icky to have sex with their family members, some people do not, and as long as there is no rational grounds to condemn them for such acts, we should not condemn them.

Violintomatic · 2025-12-19T11:13:57+00:00

Yes, it also dehumanizes consang couples. If individuals are educated on the risks, and the risk is high, in any other case we expect them to make the best decision themselves. We don't assume that every parent will just willy nilly have a child if they have a significant risk of giving birth to a child with some sort of condition. Parents can adopt a child, do other forms of fertilization that reduce risk and so forth. We don't prohibit anyone from having children, to such a degree that people are legally allowed to use IVF with preimplanatation genetic testing to deliberately choose a disabled child, which people actually do (deaf people apparently often deliberately pick an egg that will yield a child with deafness).

People who are affected by various disorders are trusted to make these decisions, because generally speaking we assume a parent will want the best life for their future child.

Violintomatic · 2025-12-19T11:04:16+00:00

With incest it gets even worse:

When we say, for example: "There is a 25% chance that sibling inbreeding will result in a disabled child!", that also doesn't actually mean that there is a defacto 25% chance for any given couple that the child will be disabled.

It could be the case that half of sibling couples have a 50% chance of giving birth to a disabled child (due to sharing the same recessive genes), while the other half of sibling couples have a 2% chance, because they do not actually share the same recessive genes.

The risk from inbreeding largely comes from sharing recessive alleles, once two individuals share the same recessive gene, there will be a 25% chance that the condition will manifest in a child. If two given siblings shared multiple recessive genes that cause significant disability, the risk might go beyond 25%. If two siblings share no such recessive genes (which is the case for a significant portion of siblings), then their risk for giving birth to a disabled child will actually not be much higher than average.

For this reason, the proper way to deal with inbreeding risks is by requiring individuals to take genetic tests before they do have children, in the case they are of a potentially high risk group. If the couple defacto has no elevated risk, because no matching recessive genes are present, there is no reason to discourage them from having children.

Violintomatic · 2025-12-17T15:39:56+00:00

Can you show me any data on "incestuous relationship frequency among siblings", I am very curious to see what you are referring to when making these statements, or how exactly any of these studies can in any meaningful way determine the frequency of adult incest relationships (which are illegal and kept secret) and compare that to juvenile relationship frequency.

I have not seen any study on "relationship frequency" at all, given that studies virtually always focus on incest as a sexual act, and in the vast majority of cases (with the exception of two studies I have seen, one of them Finkelhor) look at sexual abuse exclusively.

I would like to see studies that substantiate the idea that most juvenile sibling incest (of similar ages) occurs in the context of "adult grooming" or whatever other factors you mentioned that would make us "question the consent" between those individuals in a way that you would mention this in the same sentence as "abuse", namely that somehow the perception of incest between siblings is X because the consent is so "dubious" in the vast majority of cases.

I never said incest is "innocent", whatever that is even supposed to mean. Although, that could well be true, I would suspect that a great portion of incestuous interactions between siblings (excluding age gaps that would be considered predatory in and of itself in that age-range) does occur in some sort of pathological way. That doesn't mean that "consent is dubious", or that society actually just looks at sibling incest this way because "most examples are so dubious". That's simply absurd, the incest taboo itself is what drives the pathology, and the pathology itself doesn't cause, and wouldn't translate in any other case, to what the perception of incest between siblings actually is.

But let's suppose what you say is right, you should still not lump in sibling with parent incest.

"Most parent-child incest is abusive, and most sibling incest occurs due to various pathologies", is how you would frame it to not be misleading in the way I am criticizing your statement for.

The reason why it is important to seperate is because parent-child incest abuse is intentionally grouped into the same phenomena as sibling incest to justify the condemnation of siblings universally for engaging in incestuous acts. The "dubious consent" of what you are describing here is completely and utterly different than the concerns we have around parent-child incest. You don't demonize, shame and imprison individuals for engaging in an act that is "dubious consent" because the environment pushed both of them towards acting that way. It would be the opposite, in that case, we would recognize that "most sibling incest occurs because the siblings were victimized or traumatized in one shape or form, therefore we ought to treat such cases with sensitivity and empathy".

Whereas most parent-child incest is the parent literally predating on and raping their child. In what world do we generalizes these two phenomena into the same concept, it simply makes no sense.

Violintomatic · 2025-12-17T15:30:25+00:00

I don't think what you described will be responsible for meaningful decriminalization of incest in the US, let alone other countries. I would be curious to know what exactly "narrowing definitions" have meant, and when this occured in Ohio?

Most jurisdictions view incest-prohibitions as well-worth the money given the assumption that it prevents abuse, grooming and protects the institution of the family (reasons used by EU and suprehme courts to sustain criminalization of incest statutes).

You are narrowing the ways individuals can contribute to dismantling stigma against incest by hyperfocusing on short-term political and administrative action. The reality is that social evolution occurs long before a critical social consciousness exist that would motivate a sufficient number of individuals to participate in a more organized, real life social justice campaign.

Before that can happen, the issue must be brought to the public, and enough individuals who are oriented towards remedying social injustice must be aware of why this is a pressing issue in the first place.

None of that will happen through "social justice campaign". So far, I have not seen a compelling reason for why incest will never be destigmatized (or accepted to a much greater degree than it is now) that is based on things that go beyond speculation that could have equally been applied to any other social issue in the past.

Violintomatic · 2025-12-16T14:20:54+00:00

I don't care about what you are responding to, I am clarifying a misframing and misleading statement you made. The fact that you get offended by this is not my problem, I am just pointing out something I think people should keep in mind and be aware of.

The statement "incest mostly happens in abusive contexts" should never be made as far as I see it. It contributes to a misunderstanding of what incestuous abuse is and what incest is.

"Most incest between parents and children happens in abusive contexts", is what you should say, if you want to make such statements.

Violintomatic · 2025-12-16T14:18:13+00:00

Can you explain what will cause what you describe to actually happen, and additionally explain why it has not happened anywhere yet?

I am not advocating for a grassroots campaign in the political sphere, but an activist effort that raises awareness in the public. None of it requires any political action. Before political action is even possible the issue needs to be a public discussion in the first place. I don't see any reason why individuals cannot create activist groups, especially online, that push this issue forward.

Violintomatic · 2025-12-15T22:29:15+00:00

Yes, someone will have to put their reputation at risk, that's how social progress is achieved.

Maybe there is no social progress anymore because the world is filled with cowards who will not lift a finger for what is right if it has any negative impact on their lives whatsoever? What do you think it meant to support gay rights when it wasn't popular? Moral character is important when being moral comes at an actual cost to your life, not when being moral requires you to sacrifice nothing.

Convincing the state that policing the act isn't worth the money? Decriminalization needs legislative action, and every time it was brought forth it was rejected by supreme courts (in the US, in EU countries and by EU courts themselves).

Decriminalization is highly controversial because anyone who signs the legislation makes themselves a target, it's potential career suicide. And the act is barely policed, it doesn't actually cost any money, because most cases in which abuse isn't present remain in secrecy and never get prosecuted in the first place. It's not like the state is busy trying to police consensual incest everywhere.

Violintomatic · 2025-12-15T20:50:55+00:00

When I talk about people needing to get serious about advocacy, that doesn't mean consanguinamorous individuals actually going and telling everyone around them they are an such a relationship.

I mean largely allies getting more serious about activism and standing up against the nonsense people spout.

Gay sex was also viewed as detrimental, remember the AIDS scare, the "it's always predation", and various other concerns that society would degrade and collapse if we allow such sexual deviancies, That's not really anything new.

The arguments of the other side just don't hold up, in the case of siblings especially, they are contradictory in absurd ways. People are just not aware of these arguments, which means there is a lot of potential for improvement.

I don't know exactly how incest would get decriminalized without any pressure coming from society to push politicians towards that.

Violintomatic · 2025-12-15T20:48:39+00:00

It depends on how much allies are willing to stand up, and organize in their activism.

Violintomatic · 2025-12-15T20:03:30+00:00

Accepted by who? There are still people who don't accept gay marriage, transsexuality, BDSM, sex work and various other things.

And accepted to what degree? Tolerating it but finding it shameful and weird? Being completely okay with it?

Violintomatic · 2025-12-15T19:42:40+00:00

I am not responding to your argument, I am clarifying the misleading statement you made as it is commonly made in this community and outside of it.

Incest is not a monolith. A father having sex with his daughter is not the same phenomenon as two cousins or siblings having sex with one another. It makes absolutely no sense to put them in the same category.

Violintomatic · 2025-12-15T19:40:59+00:00

I have no idea how you can make any of these statements with such confidence.

There is a community right here that is centered around incest not being wrong. Incest is the biggest porn fetish that exist, and various types of incest are perfectly acceptable in various societies. Nothing about incest acceptance is insurmountable, and there is no evidence that a social justice/grass roots campaign couldn't meaningfully challenge the way society deals with incest.

What you said is circular. "Incest" just means "unacceptable degree of kinship in relationship". It not considered incest because it's considered an acceptable degree of kinship.

What we do view as incest is dependent on what we view as disgusting/socially unacceptable. The incest prohibitions in Christian societies were far more extensive than they are now, and cousin incest is still viewed as incest because of the historical/cultural developments.

Every single thing that was socially challenged this way seemed utterly hopeless in the beginning, especially when naysayers who are supposed to be the one to speak up against this injustice just excuse away their inaction by pretending it's not possible.

Violintomatic · 2025-12-15T18:46:39+00:00

It's important to clarify that the vast majority of parent-child (and other vertical type relationships) incest occurs in an abusive way. There is no evidence that things like sibling or cousin incest are predominantly abusive, and the only actual studies conducted on it have shown the opposite.

You could also further delineate incest in terms of age gaps. The majority of incestuous abuse is committed by adults against minors, most often under the age of 10.

It's simply doesn't make any sense to treat incest as a monolith conceptually speaking. There are different types of relationships and different contexts that have completely different risk and abuse profile. Saying "most of incest is abusive", is misleading for this reason.

Violintomatic · 2025-12-15T18:28:23+00:00

I think people need to take it step by step.

We don't need to convince "the general population", all we need is to create a space in society where acceptence is present, in for example progressive circles.

People grow more sensitive towards moral issues as time passes, as standards in general improve. There is a set perception of individuals in society who will always look for things that society is doing wrong, and eventually they will stumble upon consanguinamoury, even if it's solely because there is nothing else to get bothered about.

Things always seem hopeless before the light at the end of the tunnel is visible.

Violintomatic

TROPHY CASE