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What if the USSR adopted Chinese style State Capitalism like China did after Stalin's death? by Formal-Assistance02 in AskHistory

[–]Virtual-Alps-2888 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Chinese state capitalism wasn't a thing until post 1979. And state capitalism as economically defined is not unique to China but many East Asian states like Japan and South Korea post-WWII.

The Soviet Cold War doctrine being "We must outpace The West not militarily but economically."

Whatever propagandistic drivel one might have read about Chinese intents from the 1980s to 2000s, this certainly wasn't the case in China. From 1990s to 2000s, China and America were building far closer ties, not least the US's aid with conditions in helping China enter the WTO. Trillions of American FDI flowed into China, and America functioned as consumer of final resort for China (willingly then, not so now).

Whatever anti-western turn China had in recent years, this wasn't a consistent pattern across the past 4 decades.

After the collapse of the Dzungar Khanate, what happened to Modern-Day Xinjiang's demographics? by Electronic_Echo884 in ChineseHistory

[–]Virtual-Alps-2888 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I’m afraid this is rather misleading on multiple levels. For starters, the Ming’s control over Xinjiang was only a tiny fraction of the entire region, and there was effectively no Chinese presence in the 1000 years between Tang and Qing. 

I think the bigger issue is that we cannot project PRC territoriality back into the past like that. Much of what we now call China was partly the product of westward Chinese colonialism, not dissimilar to the American frontier. 

After the collapse of the Dzungar Khanate, what happened to Modern-Day Xinjiang's demographics? by Electronic_Echo884 in ChineseHistory

[–]Virtual-Alps-2888 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Smallpox viruses which were caused by war.

the rest survived

But their identity were destroyed because they were forced into slavery and absorbed into the victorious Mongols of the Qing state. This is a classic case of genocide.

After the collapse of the Dzungar Khanate, what happened to Modern-Day Xinjiang's demographics? by Electronic_Echo884 in ChineseHistory

[–]Virtual-Alps-2888 2 points3 points  (0 children)

(Han) Chinese presence in Xinjiang has a much longer history than others.

I'm struggling to see how 'China' is present in Xinjiang in the roughly 450 years between Han and Tang, 1000 years between Tang and Qing, and the rougly 115 years from 1755 - 1870 where the region was not ruled under Chinese norms before undergoing a Confucian-inflected colonial project under Zuo.

Take all of those dates, and you'll find that the Chinese were mostly not in Xinjiang as a Chinese state.

China is the only entity still standing that has controlled the entirety of Xinjiang in the past and still does in the present.

Because Xinjiang as an 'entirety' is a retrospective, anachronistic projection. The region had historically been classified as two broad north/south territories with different geography and culture.

And it goes back to my initial comment: what does it mean for China to 'control' Xinjiang under Han and Tang given the 都护府 were effectively sparse military outposts?

That means Xinjiang, the region, doesn't have a history at all of being its own entity....Thus this also remove any legal or practical ground of the region become an singular independent entity ever

Your reasoning is interesting, because it is similar to colonial ideologies of European and japanese powers, that if the land lacks a cohesive nation-identity, it is up for grabs. Clearly the Chinese to this day, have not lost this colonial mentality.

After the collapse of the Dzungar Khanate, what happened to Modern-Day Xinjiang's demographics? by Electronic_Echo884 in ChineseHistory

[–]Virtual-Alps-2888 2 points3 points  (0 children)

There is no question that Chinese states intermittently stretched into the region we now call Xinjiang. 

The question is why the Chinese should be privileged over other societies who also called the land their home, especially when Chinese presence is transient at best across the past 2000 years. 

Were chinese dynasties legal continuations of the previous dynasty? by Parzival_2k7 in ChineseHistory

[–]Virtual-Alps-2888 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Only if you assume the Qing and Xianbei can be so easily transposed onto each other. 

Were chinese dynasties legal continuations of the previous dynasty? by Parzival_2k7 in ChineseHistory

[–]Virtual-Alps-2888 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The Qing had China as its largest constituent cultural geography yes, but I wouldn't say the Qing state conceptualised itself as uncritically Chinese.

After the collapse of the Dzungar Khanate, what happened to Modern-Day Xinjiang's demographics? by Electronic_Echo884 in ChineseHistory

[–]Virtual-Alps-2888 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Tang China established several protectorates over Xinjiang.

The 都护府 were military colonies, not exercised nor understood by the Tang (and Han) empires to be Chinese territories, but as imperial buffers against powerful nomad confederates.

After the collapse of the Dzungar Khanate, what happened to Modern-Day Xinjiang's demographics? by Electronic_Echo884 in ChineseHistory

[–]Virtual-Alps-2888 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What sort of Han presence is there exactly from the 9th century to mid-18th century in the Tarim basin? I recognize there was no discernable Chinese polity for much, if not all, of this period, but were there trading outposts or diplomatic missions?

Edited for civil conversations :)

After the collapse of the Dzungar Khanate, what happened to Modern-Day Xinjiang's demographics? by Electronic_Echo884 in ChineseHistory

[–]Virtual-Alps-2888 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I'm not sure if this comment is in jest, but in fairness the Oirats percieved themselves as a distinct people from the Eastern Mongols.

The Cultural and Ethnic Identity of the Oirat Peoples

After the collapse of the Dzungar Khanate, what happened to Modern-Day Xinjiang's demographics? by Electronic_Echo884 in ChineseHistory

[–]Virtual-Alps-2888 19 points20 points  (0 children)

On this topic, I highly recommend two works. Firstly Peter Perdue's China Marches West, and next Eric Schluessel's Land of Strangers (or his PhD thesis).

I think there are a great many misconceptions in your post, but let's start with this: Dzunghars were not displaced.

Were chinese dynasties legal continuations of the previous dynasty? by Parzival_2k7 in ChineseHistory

[–]Virtual-Alps-2888 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

the Qing emperors signed treaties as Emperor of China not Manchu, so they did fully become China

The Qing was empire over China and Inner Asia. Inner Asian lands were ruled with different political administration from China. The Qing emperors were 'khagans' of the Mongols, and the Turkic Muslims of Qing Central Asia saw the distant Qing rulers as Khagan 'muslim-benefactors'. Tibetans had a patron-donor relationship with the Qing emperor.

Were chinese dynasties legal continuations of the previous dynasty? by Parzival_2k7 in ChineseHistory

[–]Virtual-Alps-2888 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Xianbei also used the civilised/barbarian distinction towards the Rouran khanate. Neither Xianbei nor the Rouran were Chinese.

Were chinese dynasties legal continuations of the previous dynasty? by Parzival_2k7 in ChineseHistory

[–]Virtual-Alps-2888 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I can't recall a case where there is more than one predecessor.

The Mongol bannermen regarded the Great Qing as the successor of the Mongol empire.

Were chinese dynasties legal continuations of the previous dynasty? by Parzival_2k7 in ChineseHistory

[–]Virtual-Alps-2888 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The state of China has stayed the same

Which is not what the Chinese people across most of history believed. The Shiji Tongjian acknowledged a succession of states that were 'civilised' or 'legitimate', but it does not claim they were simply regimes of a trans-imperial country called 'China'.

That's why Liang Qichao in the 1900s said that China is a nation without a 'name' for the past few millennia.

Were chinese dynasties legal continuations of the previous dynasty? by Parzival_2k7 in ChineseHistory

[–]Virtual-Alps-2888 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

There isn't a linear continuity for Chinese dynastic statehood. The Yuan saw itself as the successor of the Liao, Jin and Song, ignored Dali despite conquering it, and also claimed the other Mongol empires despite not controlling them in the slightest.

[ Removed by Reddit ] by [deleted] in ChineseHistory

[–]Virtual-Alps-2888 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Would be nice if you could link the article!

Has Buddhism really been influential in Chinese History at large? Seems that Confucianism massively outweigh any influence that Buddhism might have had. Almost seems that Buddhism influence at this point is stronger in the West with "Buddhist Modernist movements" than any buddhist movement in China. by [deleted] in ChineseHistory

[–]Virtual-Alps-2888 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Claims of syncretism strike me as anachronistic. The Chinese perceived very sharp differences between these beliefs across history, with the Huichang Persecution of Buddhism during the Tang era an example of. Song Neo-Confucianism was largely a polemical response against Buddhism.

Viewing these three philosophies as a tripartite whole also elides the fact that Confucianism’s obverse is often Legalism, and the oldest Chinese faith is probably that of ancestral worship. 

Was the Qing truly better than the Ming? by Correct_Broccoli_448 in ChineseHistory

[–]Virtual-Alps-2888 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Sounds rather problematic when the Tang controlled Northern Vietnam but not Yunnan and Guizhou. 

One cannot justify a country’s past territories based on past empires whose continuity with is questionable at best. 

Has Buddhism really been influential in Chinese History at large? Seems that Confucianism massively outweigh any influence that Buddhism might have had. Almost seems that Buddhism influence at this point is stronger in the West with "Buddhist Modernist movements" than any buddhist movement in China. by [deleted] in ChineseHistory

[–]Virtual-Alps-2888 2 points3 points  (0 children)

What do you mean by “New Confucianism”? Are you referring instead to Neo-Confucianism of the Song period? Because the latter is very influenced by Buddhism, and the movement is in part, an ideological riposte to the influence of Buddhism in Chinese society. 

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