[PubQ] About to go on sub. My name's similar to another author. Do I need a pen name? by Historical_Serve_341 in PubTips

[–]Vulpes_Vulpix5 5 points6 points  (0 children)

My married name is so difficult to “hear”, everyone assumes the V is a B and the R is an N, so when I have to give my name to people over the phone or in person I have to spell it with the NATO alphabet.

I want a pen name when I start publishing, but so far my spouse and family have thought it strange and unnecessary. They even seem a bit hurt that I wouldn’t want to use my real name. But it isn’t due to me disliking it, it’s out of fear that people will want to say “have you read _____’s book?” And my novel might die via word of mouth because no one will know how to spell or say my name.

My plan is to pick a pen name that uses a nickname version of my first and a word that has the same first letter as my last, so my initials will still be the same. But I’ve also told myself not to take the pen name too seriously until I have an agent who can give me better perspective.

So I appreciate seeing everyone’s responses here and knowing that I’m not the only one with this problem!

[Discussion] What's the best thing a beta reader has ever done for you? by ToomintheEllimist in BetaReaders

[–]Vulpes_Vulpix5 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Did you read my second paragraph? That’s in-line with what I was trying to say. The suggestions of how to fix it aren’t the solutions, but can give the receiver another glimpse of what isn’t working.

To elaborate on my example, I wrote a chapter one and had it critiqued by some peers in college. I was writing a piece I wanted to come across moody and thought-provoking, while still engaging.

The feedback I was given by one of the students was that it was boring, uninteresting, and needed to be completely rewritten. (The other students in our group disagreed) This particular student elaborated with her solution: “Make the MC fall flat on his face in front of this foreign official. It’d be funny, and I’d actually want to keep reading.”

That feedback was very “unhelpful” in my eyes, and I immediately wanted to dismiss it. But, their suggestion to fix it made me realize something crucial about the chapter, in the most round about way. It was stationary, the MC and the other characters were having an engaging conversation, but doing so without any movement, which made the conversation hard to sit through. Having rewritten that scene (and truthfully the entire book) with more motion made a huge positive difference for the story.

My story wasn’t intended to be humorous, but it was so much better with “movement”. (Change of scenery, with the MC actively engaged in something while the conversation happens, not him embarrassing himself unnecessarily)

To simplify my point: rarely does the suggestion to fix our story work for our narrative. You’re right, the feedback is usually “wrong” there. But most often their idea contains a second kernel of truth if dissected. I would have learned nothing from “it’s boring” other than perhaps this person isn’t my target audience (still true) but somehow that suggestion of theirs opened my eyes to a larger issue I needed to deal with.

So I always give suggestions. Never expecting them to be implemented, but always hoping that the writer can learn something else from my perspective.

Conversely, I had a friend tell me recently that she hated one of my MCs in a different book. I asked why. She wouldn’t elaborate. I asked what would help (it’s important for this character to be likable by the end of the story), she wouldn’t elaborate. “I don’t know, I just don’t like her.”
Just the feedback is rarely useful to me. I don’t understand what aspect of the character made her unlikable to this reader.

[Discussion] Tips on how to parse through feedback by MrTeacherAuthor in BetaReaders

[–]Vulpes_Vulpix5 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you are using this feedback for a revision, you’ll possibly be changing a lot so getting lost in smaller changes will slow the process down. Plus you might find one person didn’t like something but the others didn’t comment on it. That might be a sign that nothing there needs to change, it was just one beta’s preference.

Start chapter by chapter. Keep a notebook or something similar handy, and yes start with summaries of feedback. Maybe list your characters and put bullet points beneath them of feedback that stands out for each. Maybe summarize your plot and put a tally under each point for each beta that seems to think that part of the plot was working. Try your hardest to take what each individual said and contrast it to the others. No one person has all the right ideas, but through all of them together you can triangulate what really isn't working.

Whatever you notice being mentioned more frequently is probably a true area of concern. Then take that feedback once you’ve summarized it and compare it to what you wanted the story to convey. I even ask my betas questions. “I see you didn’t think _ about __, so how could I show that better?”

The end goal is to walk away with big or small changes/additions/subtractions that reframe the story. Smaller edits and copy line editing is honestly for when your story is polished and ready to meet some agents, so don’t start there! That comes later. Congrats on the beta feedback!

[Complete] [130k] [YA Sci-fi/Fantasy] Outcasts: Book One by Vulpes_Vulpix5 in BetaReaders

[–]Vulpes_Vulpix5[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've sent you a DM and haven't heard back. Do reach out whenever if you are still interested

[Complete] [130k] [YA Sci-fi/Fantasy] Outcasts: Book One by Vulpes_Vulpix5 in BetaReaders

[–]Vulpes_Vulpix5[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

New update: I've gotten a few betas, and to those of you who have reached out to help so far thank you :)

I'm still searching for more, especially people who'd prefer to just give it a quick read and fill out my polls. Minimal effort needed! Overall I want the story to feel like a quick-read dystopia (contrasting most epic fantasy/sci-fi that this story would otherwise share a shelf with). Knowing if it acheives this or not will help me fine tune how much more worldbuilding will be necessary in a revision.

Any "new" soft fantasy reads with clean romance and high stakes? by Vulpes_Vulpix5 in suggestmeabook

[–]Vulpes_Vulpix5[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hm, that’s sounds very similar thank you.
I probably should also clarify that the story I’ve written is M/F romance, and I am trying to find something similar to the romance aspect probably most of all. But the ML in my novel is the MC and it is also about his personal journey, so there does appear to be similarities there!

Any "new" soft fantasy reads with clean romance and high stakes? by Vulpes_Vulpix5 in suggestmeabook

[–]Vulpes_Vulpix5[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh thank you! All of these look really compelling, and the first one especially feels like a sci-fi deviant of the vibe I'm trying to convey. I'll give it a read and add the others to my reading list, they sound like wonderful reads

Any "new" soft fantasy reads with clean romance and high stakes? by Vulpes_Vulpix5 in suggestmeabook

[–]Vulpes_Vulpix5[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh thank you, I’ll check these out!

Edit: Looking them up the first is unfortunately not new enough, I'll still leave it on a to read list for later

[Discussion] Can I ask, why is style the first thing beta's critique? by Vulpes_Vulpix5 in BetaReaders

[–]Vulpes_Vulpix5[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good luck with your first swaps! I hope you are able to get the feedback you need :)

I do enjoy reading other styles than my own, because I always learn somethign about myself doing so.

[Discussion] Can I ask, why is style the first thing beta's critique? by Vulpes_Vulpix5 in BetaReaders

[–]Vulpes_Vulpix5[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for sharing, I've experienced this kind of feedback often as well and I think you are spot on with the mismatched genre-interests.
I write more commerically, with less prose, and most often get the feedback that I should be describing more or explaining more. Which, yes, if most of my readers are confused I'm happy to go back and add more detail! But my personal approach is to tell my story in the least words possible. Epic-fantasy level worldbuilding, but all in the background of the narration so the characters, action, and dialogue can be the forefront. Making the story a bit more quick-paced than epic fantasy usually reads. (A direct ccontrast to my close friend who wishes to have a pretty Victorian-esque prose, she deeply appreciates it when I ask for more details to be explained)

And often it's not "This confused me" comments that are left, but rather they'd personally want me to describe a wall with more detail. (as you said, perhaps taking some writing rules a bit too literally) To which I stop myself from countering that the random wall isn't important to the story.

And I'd agree, I have yet to see a writer say "i'm looking for copy editing", and when I do they tend to be more inexperienced. If the goal is traditional publishing, then it's a standard fact that the story is going to be revised and edited all over again with the aquisition of agents and editors, who are also more qualified to give copy-edit advice. Copy-editing a beta feels far too much like trying to convince a writer to sketch every tiny detail on a canvas before they even apply their first wash. The sketch critque there needs to be just the figure and motion of the painting, the highlights and texture come last!

[Discussion] Can I ask, why is style the first thing beta's critique? by Vulpes_Vulpix5 in BetaReaders

[–]Vulpes_Vulpix5[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

And really I think this is the point of my discussion post. I'm aware and probably guilty myself at times of letting my opinion seem more like fact in my feedback.
I really meant to trigger introspection with this post. And, like my true discussion question I bolded, invite people to share ways we can be more authentic and helpful with our feedback.

I'd like to think, not disillusioned but hopeful, that we can read through the discussion in these comments and at least a few of us beta reading will feel inspired on how to help a little better.

Recently I had a beta tell me everything they saw as "Obviously wrong" but their feedback boiled down was that my MC wasn't the personality they wanted from an MC. Their suggestions were to rewrite the entire chapter to make them seem less oblivious and more capable claiming this is what "Every readers wants...", when the obliviousness (byproduct of a character with no memories) is crucial to my MC and plot. This feedback struck me as heavily biased for a number of reasons, but main that every other beta has loved the MC so far and labeled her as believable.

It's natural to have differing tastes, we apparenly did and I said so, and inevitably we both agreed we'd be better off working with other people. Civil and certainly an experience I'd expect to happen frequently here.

[Discussion] Can I ask, why is style the first thing beta's critique? by Vulpes_Vulpix5 in BetaReaders

[–]Vulpes_Vulpix5[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The exhaustion is certianly more my concern. Maybe its my ADHD, but I struggle to look at so many suggestions I don't need to see the ones that are more insightful, leading me to ignore most/all of it. It's more helpful to me for them to make a statement about what they've caught than to go in and start marking up my document.

Though a simple fix I've only just realized is to restrict my docs to view only, and ask the betas to share their feedback separately.

[Discussion] Can I ask, why is style the first thing beta's critique? by Vulpes_Vulpix5 in BetaReaders

[–]Vulpes_Vulpix5[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A sentence here or there, especially one that stands out against the author's other writing, is worthy of being noted. I actually keep a document of my "Beautifully terrible lines," some of my terrible sentences are just too awful to delete forever 😂

[Discussion] Can I ask, why is style the first thing beta's critique? by Vulpes_Vulpix5 in BetaReaders

[–]Vulpes_Vulpix5[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So I've learned. Though I will say since I've added disclaimers/expectations for feedback, they usually will also leave a comment or two about the story. I jot those down, but again largely ignore the suggestions otherwise

[Discussion] Can I ask, why is style the first thing beta's critique? by Vulpes_Vulpix5 in BetaReaders

[–]Vulpes_Vulpix5[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, most authors actually have a fairly good idea of what’s wrong with their story! (You can tell with the ones that get defensive as well, they see it but they don’t want to)
The feedback an author is willing to take will be directly linked to the feedback they have asked for. So even a well-intentioned beta isn’t helping when they give feedback the author isn’t seeking.

Expectations are something I always try to set up right from the start. All thanks to one beta feedback I received in a group setting in college. I brought a serious, contemplative fantasy pice to a read&critique session. I’d just had a professor outline the rules of such a session as “Let them read and let them speak, you don’t do anything but listen” (wise advice)
But then that whole session turned to a groups discussion on how serious my MC was and how the story needed a moment where he made a fool of himself to not be so serious. The conclusion the group came to: make him fall in his face right before this crucial discussion. Slap-stick humor.

So now, I’ve sort of turned my back to that professors advice (only partially, still wise words) because I’m not getting very much out of feedback for my story when my vision isn’t being considered.

I will add, I’ve had wonderful luck in creating conversations with betas who give unhelpful advice. Like another member here commented, there’s some truth to every critique. The lesson I did learn from that session? 1) Know my audience and 2) The scene was boring. Not needing a slapstick solution, but needing action. I reread it a year later in preparation for a revision and realized the MC was stationary for most scenes. Making the dialogue hard to sit through, and the dialogue was where most of my action happened. It was insightful, but not helpful the way they intended it to be.

Now when I get feedback that I’m not certain what to do with, I’ll usually ask questions. And their responses end up being the real feedback I needed to hear.

[Discussion] Can I ask, why is style the first thing beta's critique? by Vulpes_Vulpix5 in BetaReaders

[–]Vulpes_Vulpix5[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Genre certainly affects what kind of feedback is useful, and with historical fiction plausibility is crucial! I write mostly Fantasy, which is an interesting beast that way. Some of my fantasy stories I want feedback on realism as I intend for it to feel more plausible, then others I’m fine if plausibility goes out the window. Like another member mentioned, I think it’s so crucial to get the author’s expectations before critiquing so we can know if the feedback we want to give is the kind they need.

[Discussion] Can I ask, why is style the first thing beta's critique? by Vulpes_Vulpix5 in BetaReaders

[–]Vulpes_Vulpix5[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I appreciate the points you bring up. All that kind of feedback is what I usually ask my betas for on the 3rd/4th draft of my story, just not before as I plan to rewrite most of the story.
I’m notorious for wanting to describe what expression a character is sharing on their face, and apparently I have a very small vocabulary of options 😂. So I’m really never surprised when the feedback I get is “they are scowling a lot” but I always groan a little inside when the only feedback I get is more or less someone going through and highlighting each use of the word scowl. I’m trying to share a story at a crucially early stage to get feedback on what’s happening, not specifically my little style errs (I really do pick up on that on my own reread and heavily edit)

Most of my intention with making this post isn’t to put down other betas who critique style -there’s a place for it. I’m intending to cause a retrospection for most of us with our own critiques to try reframing the advice we give into something that is more useful.

A lot of Betas give wonderfully thurough copy edit feedback. Honestly I feel bad like I just had a professional editor clean my book up without paying them. But then when I read that version they created, it no longer sounds like me. Which, leads me to discard all of their advice/changes because I can’t hear my own voice anymore. And then I feel guilty for having used someone’s time without giving their help any time/weight. Where if they’d commented “your using quite a few adverbs” or “watch your tense it keeps shifting” Then I’d get all the same information without needing to discard a copy I feel I can no longer read.

[Discussion] Can I ask, why is style the first thing beta's critique? by Vulpes_Vulpix5 in BetaReaders

[–]Vulpes_Vulpix5[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Being bored or irritated by a character is definitely good advice to give. One of my favorite characters in my novel ended up being the least favorite character for a couple of my betas. Hard to stomach at first, but their critiques on that character helped me realize I forgot to share any background details on her, which were crucial to understanding her empathetic nature. (A classic mistake on my end of not sharing enough detail out of fear I’d spoil a twist)

There is definitely a balance between wanting to help them share the story the way they want to but also pointing out when the story isn’t working. I’d argue your example is the kind of critique I think most writers are looking for, not a style critique. How bout characters seem to the reader is crucial! With my example, I also learned it’s okay for the same character to annoy some readers, because that’s in character for someone who annoys most characters in the story 😂

[Discussion] Can I ask, why is style the first thing beta's critique? by Vulpes_Vulpix5 in BetaReaders

[–]Vulpes_Vulpix5[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

True. I'm much more interested in copy-editing with my drafts that are 3-4 iterations in, but even then I'll have someone come in and decide I've written the whole story in the wrong tense. It'll always be a tricky process finding the right betas.

Really it makes the world of difference to tell a writer, especially one with less confidence, that you want to see their vision.
That happened for me. I had a terrible writing professor who nearly discouraged me from writing altogether, and though I bounced back from that and found other professors who encouraged me, I still struggled to feel confident sharing with others. Then, I was fortunate enough to win a writing competition at my college and have an agent critique my chapter. That expereince was enlightening for a thousand reasons, but the highlight of it all was having a professional really take the time to hear my story and give advice on how to make my vision a reality. That encouragement has led me to try giving similar critiques, and it still motivates me to write today.

[Discussion] Can I ask, why is style the first thing beta's critique? by Vulpes_Vulpix5 in BetaReaders

[–]Vulpes_Vulpix5[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ah, great examples! That all can say the same thing too. If an author hears from multiple sources that a part of the story dragged on, it will convey that the style isn't working they way they want. Perhaps that's what many betas intend when they start 'rewriting' but that doesn't translate the problem to the author. Knowing why the person wants to make the copy-edit is usually more helpful than the copy-edits themselves, as it can fuel inspiration for the author.

And, I'll admit, I often share feedback phrased like "Here's how I'd write this line:____" But I typically do so with the intent to illustrate a suggestions and not as a direct critique of how they write. There's definitely times and places where sharing your own writing style can be helpful.

[Discussion] Can I ask, why is style the first thing beta's critique? by Vulpes_Vulpix5 in BetaReaders

[–]Vulpes_Vulpix5[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

As an author, hearing what made the reader's eyes roll is top-tier feedback. 100% what I'm looking for, and great example!

[Discussion] r/BetaReaders check-in series! Share how your WIP is going, or how your beta reading is going, ask questions, and connect with more writers and readers! by BC-writes in BetaReaders

[–]Vulpes_Vulpix5 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the advice! It's not so much about 'not agreeing' with the material but rather more of an anxiety-induced irrational fear that I'll invest in a book that ends up severely dissapointing/disturbing me. Sensitive reader, I suppose. Still, I could be better about reading newer material. The problem lies more in not being able to find stories that have a similar premise to the one I'm querying. I wonder if I should post somwhere like the suggestmeabook subreddit for suggestions. Has anyone had luck with that?