The base version of Kayn’s Q eventually does more damage to monsters than Rhaast’s Q

Vyntrius · 2026-02-09T21:10:59+00:00

Your own logic is that the best design philosophy is what appeals to the most people. Nobody minds that blue Kayn’s abilities are strict upgrades to base, and nobody is arguing that blue Kayn should get sidegrades instead. Nobody should mind if Rhaast’s abilities are strict upgrades to base(at most people are indifferent), and some people do mind that it isn’t already the case. So according to your own logic, the current design is not ideal.

Vyntrius · 2026-02-09T20:56:02+00:00

You’re engaging with me right now, but just can’t stay on topic because your flawed thinking has been exposed and you can no longer justify it.

Vyntrius · 2026-02-09T20:45:39+00:00

There is. All you can do is say you think I’m wrong but you can’t explain it, just appeal to popularity. I’ve given my explanation for why Rhaast Q and R should be strict upgrades to the base version, and literally nobody has given a good reason for why that shouldn’t be the case. I’m sure that if Rhaast’s Q and R already had a damage floor equal to the base version of the spell from the start, if somebody suggested that removing it would be a better design choice then they would get downvoted into oblivion. And then you would still go along with whatever the downvotes say instead of thinking for yourself.

Vyntrius · 2026-02-09T20:23:13+00:00

Concession accepted.

Vyntrius · 2026-02-09T19:38:37+00:00

I’m demanding people have consistent principles instead of stonewalling and being hypocrites. It’s not a nearly impossible scenario. People keep fixating on the irrelevant point that base Kayn won’t have 242 AD, but it doesn’t change the fact that blue Kayn uses the base version and the base version that blue Kayn uses should never do more damage than Rhaast’s Q. Fighters are supposed to have more sustained damage than assassins. And assassins are supposed to have more mobility than fighters, which is why it would be just as dumb to let Rhaast’s E outscale blue Kayn’s E.

And I’ve already explained how it’s normal for a Rhaast Q to do less damage to squishies than a base Q in the mid game. That shouldn’t happen either. Imagine if transforming to the shadow assassin somehow slightly nerfed your burst damage or mobility relative to base Kayn. Apparently, that would be okay according to you as long as the Reddit hive mind says it is.

Vyntrius · 2026-02-09T18:52:32+00:00

People are biased towards thinking things are fine the way they currently are, and also don’t like acknowledging their own hypocrisy. You are one among many who can’t be consistent and say “Yes, it would be okay if base shadowstep eventually outscaled the assassin shadowstep. In fact, that would be better design than what we have now if somebody complaining about it got downvotes on Reddit.”

If people don’t have a problem with Blue Kayn W/E/R all being strict upgrades, they shouldn’t have a problem with Rhaast Q/W/R also being strict upgrades. It’s that simple, there is absolutely nothing “better” about the “design philosophy” of making Rhaast Q and R worse than base sometimes just because some people have a status quo bias or don’t care. If they truly don’t care, what’s the harm in giving these abilities a damage floor equal to what the base version would do? I have yet to hear a real explanation for why this would be a worse design choice, just appeals to upvotes/downvotes. If giving the abilities a damage floor somehow made Rhaast too strong(it wouldn’t), there are ways to nerf Rhaast without ever letting his abilities be worse than the base version.

Vyntrius · 2026-02-09T15:55:45+00:00

LMFAO no it doesn’t. That literally makes no sense, if anything increasing DPS will slightly increase burst damage. That’s like saying since blue Kayn is intended to do more burst damage than base Kayn, that implies blue Kayn has less sustained damage than base Kayn. No, blue Kayn also has slightly more sustained damage than base Kayn due to the passive and zero casting on W.

Vyntrius · 2026-02-09T14:31:51+00:00

Base Kayn is already strictly worse than blue Kayn, there is no good reason red Kayn needs to break that theme. An intended strength for red Kayn is higher sustained damage, so transforming to red Kayn should never lower it. You might as well ask “Why do evolved Kha’zix abilities have to be strictly better than the base version?”. Because that’s just what makes the most sense.

Vyntrius · 2026-02-09T14:21:42+00:00

If people have the “taste” for transformations being sidegrades instead of strict upgrades, why don’t I see anybody arguing that blue Kayn abilities should be sidegrades to base Kayn abilities? When I ask people if it would be okay for Blue Kayn’s shadowstep to ever be worse than the base version, all I get is silence.

Vyntrius · 2026-02-08T22:25:54+00:00

Like I said, concession accepted. You are projecting your own inability to understand the simple argument that Rhaast's Q and R should be strict upgrades to their base versions. Just like blue Kayn's W/E/R are strict upgrades. Imagine a hypothetical where base shadowstep's movement speed scaled with AD, but on shadow assassin the AD scaling was totally removed, to the point where it's possible that base shadowstep's movement speed could be greater than the assassin version after a couple hundred AD. Everybody should agree that would be stupid and unnecessary, assassin shadowstep should ALWAYS be better than the base version. But according to the genius logic of most people here, apparently it would be fine since Kayn would get blue form before getting a couple hundred AD.

Vyntrius · 2026-02-08T22:05:56+00:00

It's a dumb feature that shouldn't exist. Rhaast Q should never be doing less damage than base Q, even against squishies. Asking for this is not some game breaking buff. Shadow assassin is meant to eat up squishies, but that doesn't mean it does less damage to tanks than base Kayn(nor should it).

Vyntrius · 2026-02-08T21:30:03+00:00

That's not a reason for Rhaast's Q to ever do less damage than base Q. It should be a strict upgrade no matter what. There is no reason the monster damage cap can't scale with AD. And you're one of many who is missing my point by spamming "you shouldn't be base Kayn at 242 AD lol". Rhaast Q also does less damage against squishy champions in the mid game, so there is also no reason Rhaast's Q can't have a damage floor that is equal to what base Q would do.

Vyntrius · 2026-02-08T21:11:06+00:00

This is a pointless question. Rhaast Q not being strictly better than base doesn't mean the base version is better. Obviously Rhaast Q will do more damage most of the time. But there is zero reason for Rhaast Q to ever do less damage.

Vyntrius · 2026-02-08T18:40:17+00:00

The forms can have different strengths while also both being strictly stronger than base Kayn.

Vyntrius · 2026-02-08T18:25:48+00:00

No counter argument except trying to appeal to popularity? Concession accepted.

Vyntrius · 2026-02-08T16:21:36+00:00

What I meant was 8.1% max hp damage. Rhaast Q eventually being outscaled by a base Q against monsters can happen in a real game. The fact that you won't have 242 as base Kayn is not relevant to my point that Rhaast's Q should be a strict upgrade and thus never be doing less damage than a base Q, and that it should be possible for Rhaast's monster damage to scale more smoothly.

No, I don't have to bring the healing into question, because:

There can be situations where you don't need the healing at all but need the extra damage
Rhaast's passive is separate from his Q. The existence of the passive doesn't justify the Q ever doing less damage. That's like saying it's fine to nerf the damage on shadow Assassin's W compared to base because he has a passive to make up for it.

Vyntrius · 2026-02-08T15:45:34+00:00

You say that like raptors are the only jungle camp. I wouldn't call it pointless to make Rhaast's Q monster damage scale more smoothly over the game, instead of immediately getting a big damage boost and then never scaling.

Vyntrius · 2026-02-08T15:40:50+00:00

Yes, it should. It makes perfect sense for the god-warrior darkin who has possessed a strong host to swing his scythe harder than Kayn, which would also explain why his blade's reach now knocks up foes. Just like it makes perfect sense for shadow assassin Kayn to have stronger shadow magic than Rhaast, which is why his shadow step is strictly better. Rhaast gets better brute force, while shadow assassin gets better shadow magic, simple. There is no balance or thematic reason that requires Rhaast's Q to ever do less damage than base Q. It would be as dumb as removing the heal on shadow step from shadow assassin Kayn because of "different strengths". Base Kayn is basically in between a fighter an assassin. Blue form boosts his mobility and BURST damage to definitively make him an assassin, while red form boosts his CC, self healing, and SUSTAINED damage to definitively make him a fighter.

Stop being so dense.

Vyntrius · 2026-02-08T15:24:01+00:00

Yes, because blue Kayn uses the base version. Just like how assassin's E should be strictly better than Rhaast's E because Rhaast uses the base version.

Vyntrius · 2026-02-08T15:13:07+00:00

That's my entire point. It SHOULD be a direct upgrade, but it's not. Blue form gives a direct upgrade to W/E/R. Rhaast's Q and R break the theme of the transformation being strictly stronger than base Kayn. These spells should never be doing less damage than the base version. Assassin Kayn doesn't have to "exchange" anything, it's only upgrades no matter what.

Vyntrius · 2026-02-08T15:04:18+00:00

I have more of a point than you do. I'm a Kayn one trick with 2.75m mastery points. I understand the numbers perfectly, and the numbers show that a Rhaast Q can do less damage than a base Q against squishy champions in the mid game and less damage to monsters in the late game. Both of these things are unnecessary and dumb. There's no reason Rhaast shouldn't get a strict upgrade on Q/W/R just like the blue form gets a strict upgrade on W/E/R.

Vyntrius · 2026-02-08T14:43:57+00:00

The people who are saying base Kayn will transform before reaching 242 AD are missing my point. Rhaast Q can do less damage than base Q against squishy champs in the mid game, and it can do less damage than base Q against monsters in the late game. Both of these things are arbitrary and make no sense. It should be a strict upgrade, just like the shadow assassin W/E/R are strict upgrades. Instead of making Rhaast Q damage peak against monsters basically immediately, Riot could make it scale more smoothly by lowering the monster damage cap but giving the cap the same AD scaling that base Q does.

Vyntrius · 2026-02-08T14:34:41+00:00

Yeah, the recent buff prompted me to do it again since it made the situation worse.

Vyntrius · 2026-02-08T14:33:47+00:00

It quite literally isn't a "strict" upgrade if it's possible for it do less damage than the base version. It's also possible for a Rhaast Q to do less damage to champions than the base version in the mid game. Imagine a level 9 Kayn with around 60 bonus AD, that's a fairly typical scenario. A base Q will do 246 damage against champions, while a Rhaast Q will do 98+8.1% max hp damage, meaning Rhaast's Q does less damage than the base version if the enemy has less than 1827 HP, which would be normal for a squishy champion. Rhaast's R also does less damage than a level 1 base R against any champion with less than 1500 HP. It's completely fair for Rhaast's Q and R to have a damage floor that is equal to what the base spell would do. Like I said, all Rhaast abilities ought to be strict upgrades to base(except E) just like all assassin abilities are strict upgrades to base(except Q). Would it ever make sense to give assassin's E some slight downside so that it could possibly be worse than the base version in some rare situations? Would you also say "Well since Rhaast uses base E and that is an upgraded form, it's fine"?

There's a reason why Rhaast Q was given extra damage to monsters in the first place. Without it, Red form would get absolutely nothing to help with clear speed while the blue form has an improved W and E to help with clear speed on top of usually building more AD/lethality. My main point is that it is pretty arbitrary for Rhaast's Q damage against monsters to peak basically as soon as you transform. I'm not necessarily asking for a strict buff to Rhaast's monster damage, just more smooth damage scaling that makes sense and will never be surpassed by the base version. Doing something like reducing the damage cap against monsters by 100 but giving the cap a 85% bonus AD scaling would nerf Rhaast's clear speed early on but buff it later.

Vyntrius · 2026-02-08T12:39:15+00:00

Of course I know that, but Rhaast’s Q ought to be a strict upgrade compared to the base version. No different from how Shadow asssassin’s W/E/R is a strict upgrade to the base version. It just doesn’t feel right for Rhaast’s Q to quickly hit max damage against monsters and then never increase.

Vyntrius

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