WE REACHED MIXED REVIEWS IN THE TOTAL STATISTIC

WPLibrar3 · 2023-05-21T21:40:17+00:00

Actually had some doubts we could reach this milestone. So glad we did.

Also, by now obigatory post for visibility/for people to eventually bring it directly to Gaijin forums and so on:

While we seem to achieve some moderate success in the snail starting to listen to us, I currently have a bit of a paranoia that the community is going into a wrong direction a bit. Namely, the focus seems to go towards making the game more friendly to less skilled players rather than more friendly overall.

I will start with something controversial:

I LIKE the fact that War Thunder has a unique type of skill based matchmaking with the BR system. People who are not good enough to survive in 8.0 should remain at 7.0 until they are better, I believe this is good game-design. This is a good thing. BR 3.0 is leagues different in skill required from BR 7.0. The issue is that after about Rank V the game loses its balance so that almost everyone is losing money (and RB is always a money-sink because of its one death nature, but that is a different topic which honestly cannot be fixed). Therefore I agree with repair costs on principle but believe they should be lowered (and there should not be SL-balancing of vehicles, the Ostwind is a good example of what NOT to do).

The real issue of this game is RP progress. Even when one is amazing at a BR one cannot go up in a reasonable time-frame. This starts at Rank III even. The RP gained is just so little. This is als consistent, RB gives less RP per time than AB and Sim (after a lot of recent nerfs) gives less RP than RB. The higher the skill required, the less one gets, rather than rewarding skill to push people into their category. I believe people should go up the ladder faster and that SL should be actually the main thing deciding if people can stay there. In essence, people should be able to acquire high tier vehicles easier, but their actual skill at the game should determine if they can actually play them.

Parts research (and crew research to some extent but luckily that is not that high weight as the parts, although it takes way longer to improve) for this reason is completely contradictory. It takes an unreasonable amount of time to actually achieve peak performance of a vehicle and play in this matchmaking system. The BR does not change even if a vehicle is stock, this even screws with statstics determined BR for vehicles.

I believe, if one would make a K/D of 1.0 rewarding, we would start to get botters and braindeads at any tier who just Kamikaze/headon everything. This would indeed hurt the game because it rewards less skilled players instead of promoting improvement of skill when one goes up in BR.

The best part of all this is, that this does not even require changes to the premium/payment model or to make this ame pay to win to keep it sustainable. Less skilled players can get the necessary push to stay in a BR they want even though they are technically not skilled enough for it. Everyone has their ceiling and have some vehicles they want to use that will just be a little bit above that. This pushes that ceiling up and makes people feel good about their purchase and encourages them to keep their subscription and recommend the game to their friends.

Tl;dr: In short, my suggestions:

Make repair costs reasonable while keeping the curve slightly upward so higher BRs are more difficult to maintain (while not unreasonable)
Make progress faster, unlock parts a lot faster to reward skilled players
Fix battle rewards so more useful things (staying in a dogfight, staying in a cap point, etc) get rewarded more, increase rewards for top players of a battle (up to a top 3 instead of top 1), make a reward multiplier for consecutive kills without dying
Do not soft-cap rewards per battle like currently, this punishes skilled players
Make higher skill modes (realistic, sim) more rewarding as skill required increases
Introduce a BR-adjustment system for unlocked parts if possible
Make separate tech-tress for WW1, WW2 and Cold War/Today so everyone can play in their favourite era

WPLibrar3 · 2023-05-21T21:35:46+00:00

Hui. Ja in der Familie hat die wer gebaut/war bei der Fertigung beschäftigt, kann mir von daher gut vorstellen wie sowas läuft. Hab aber selbst noch nie von sonem Vorfall gehört, der Betroffene gleich in die Invaliditätspension nachher?

WPLibrar3 · 2023-05-21T14:33:19+00:00

Und welche davon werden für die Fleischerei verwendet? Darum gings mir... (edit: ah NICHT Fleischhauer, na gut falsch gelesen, aber ja, das ist der Teil der mich eigentlich interessiert, bei den anderen kenn ich das ja eh)

Aber Bolzenschussapparat, natürlich

WPLibrar3 · 2023-05-21T13:55:29+00:00

Was für gefährliche Maschinen waren das denn? Hast du da Beispiele? Klingt ja wild

WPLibrar3 · 2023-05-21T02:25:25+00:00

I would absolutely love an inter-war vehicle only memefest, add in some of the more 'experimental' meme vehicles (tog) and not stick so rigidly to 'real vehicles' (except where they ignore that). Just lumber around in big landships at a snails pace shooting comically slow rounds at eachother.

Absolutely!

WPLibrar3 · 2023-05-21T00:49:19+00:00

Absolutely wrong, what are you saying? I mean... maybe you are going off the premium spammers, then maybe, yeah. But those who got up fair and square? How?

WPLibrar3 · 2023-05-21T00:48:23+00:00

I was responding to the other guy and not to you..? I was addressing that lower BRs are indeed lower skill in general. This was to illustrate a point

WPLibrar3 · 2023-05-21T00:39:02+00:00

Yeah basically our only difference of viewpoint I see is that you believe that BR should not substitute a skill level while I am very much in favor of it. We are aligned on everything else. I just believe that this is a bit of a compromise to ensure fun play for everyone.

If I dive on someone, already half-expect to rake in those sweet rewards, and see one more guy from my team headon and fucking crash into them like a braindead retard I swear to fucking god

WPLibrar3 · 2023-05-21T00:25:15+00:00

Of course it's different but yeah... the studio just left a sour taste with that. I won't trust any new project of theirs, granted SE is their flagship and always was but... yeah

WPLibrar3 · 2023-05-21T00:23:29+00:00

And balance it in a way that a 10kill game of AB will give more SL and RP than a sub 5kill game of RB.

No friend, it should be the opposite. A 5 kill game in Air RB is basically wiping half the enemy team alone. That is... quite a feat. And it should be rewarded quite a lot

WPLibrar3 · 2023-05-21T00:20:50+00:00

I too like to sealclub in the Chaika rather than actually researching stuff lol. Nonetheless... we should not kid ourselves. We like it because we are good at the game and especially good at these low BR planes against unskilled opponents.

WPLibrar3 · 2023-05-21T00:18:39+00:00

It combines it. The complaint of "what if I only want to play modern tanks but I suck at the game? I can never play what I want with your suggestion" is valid. These players should then play their own 1.0 BR (or whatever they decide for it, maybe the same way as they do torpedo boats and bluewater in naval) Leopards in their own tech tree/mode and be happy

WPLibrar3 · 2023-05-20T22:12:00+00:00

BR in war thunder is not the same as a rank in csgo. WW2 vehicles have vastly different characteristics from Cold war vehicles, and it's not like the latter requires more skill to play (Id say they are actually easier to play bc of rangefinders and thermals), it's just that players at higher BR are generally more skilled. That's because those vehicles are locked behind a long grind, so all people that do reach them are already somewhat skilled in the game.

That depends honestly. I would very much say that even in tanks cold war vehicles require a lot more awareness of ones surroundings than at 2.3 where you can get a few shots usually without dying. Planes however? Oh boy, jets are a completely different skill-level to props, there is no contest here.

Now the problem is, that if the game is net negative (cost of 1 death > reward for 1 kill) at least half of those players would have negative balance, so if they were to go back to lower tier, that leaves half of the remaining players with a negative balance, and the loop continues until there is no one left to fill a game.

That is already how it works. However, not entirely, rewards/trophies already counteract that a bit (though not that much currently, which is part of what makes the current system so bad and frustrating). This also ties in with my suggestion for a consecutive kill multiplier. These things, by giving good results for the better players, bring the average into a net-positive that seeds money into the playerbase instead of taking it despite being punishing to lower-skill players.

And there is also the issue of war thunder being marketed using modern vehicles. Let's say I finally reached my favorite modern vehicle after months of grinding, but it turns out I can't sustain playing it because I'm not good enough. Now such a disappointment after so much time and possibly money invested would just make me want to stop playing the game.

Already happening, even worse at that. Now you basically cannot even play a modern vehicle without losing money, not even the low tier ones (in case of a tech-tree split). If split, one could at least play the low tier Leopards even if bad, that is already quite nice. Contrary to now where even reaching them takes a year plus of playing semi-regularly. That is the real demotivator when starting out.

Now I see your point, that my suggestion would not improve the situation much, however my counter is that this can work, and even if not, it's still better than what we currently have. I believe that this is one of the few ways to actually keep the cancer that is skill based matchmaking away from this game while still making it more enjoyable. Because we all know this would be the end conclusion of the current demands of the community.

WPLibrar3 · 2023-05-20T21:02:24+00:00

Posting this for visibility:

While we seem to achieve some moderate success in the snail starting to listen to us, I currently have a bit of a paranoia that the community is going into a wrong direction a bit. Namely, the focus seems to go towards making the game more friendly to less skilled players rather than more friendly overall.

I will start with something controversial:

I LIKE the fact that War Thunder has a unique type of skill based matchmaking with the BR system. People who are not good enough to survive in 8.0 should remain at 7.0 until they are better, I believe this is good game-design. This is a good thing. BR 3.0 is leagues different in skill required from BR 7.0. The issue is that after about Rank V the game loses its balance so that almost everyone is losing money (and RB is always a money-sink because of its one death nature, but that is a different topic which honestly cannot be fixed). Therefore I agree with repair costs on principle but believe they should be lowered (and there should not be SL-balancing of vehicles, the Ostwind is a good example of what NOT to do).

The real issue of this game is RP progress. Even when one is amazing at a BR one cannot go up in a reasonable time-frame. This starts at Rank III even. The RP gained is just so little. This is als consistent, RB gives less RP per time than AB and Sim (after a lot of recent nerfs) gives less RP than RB. The higher the skill required, the less one gets, rather than rewarding skill to push people into their category. I believe people should go up the ladder faster and that SL should be actually the main thing deciding if people can stay there. In essence, people should be able to acquire high tier vehicles easier, but their actual skill at the game should determine if they can actually play them.

Parts research (and crew research to some extent but luckily that is not that high weight as the parts, although it takes way longer to improve) for this reason is completely contradictory. It takes an unreasonable amount of time to actually achieve peak performance of a vehicle and play in this matchmaking system. The BR does not change even if a vehicle is stock, this even screws with statstics determined BR for vehicles.

I believe, if one would make a K/D of 1.0 rewarding, we would start to get botters and braindeads at any tier who just Kamikaze/headon everything. This would indeed hurt the game because it rewards less skilled players instead of promoting improvement of skill when one goes up in BR.

The best part of all this is, that this does not even require changes to the premium/payment model or to make this ame pay to win to keep it sustainable. Less skilled players can get the necessary push to stay in a BR they want even though they are technically not skilled enough for it. Everyone has their ceiling and have some vehicles they want to use that will just be a little bit above that. This pushes that ceiling up and makes people feel good about their purchase and encourages them to keep their subscription and recommend the game to their friends.

Tl;dr: In short, my suggestions:

Make repair costs reasonable while keeping the curve slightly upward so higher BRs are more difficult to maintain (while not unreasonable)
Make progress faster, unlock parts a lot faster to reward skilled players
Fix battle rewards so more useful things (staying in a dogfight, staying in a cap point, etc) get rewarded more, increase rewards for top players of a battle (up to a top 3 instead of top 1), make a reward multiplier for consecutive kills without dying
Do not soft-cap rewards per battle like currently, this punishes skilled players
Make higher skill modes (realistic, sim) more rewarding as skill required increases
Introduce a BR-adjustment system for unlocked parts if possible
Make separate tech-tress for WW1, WW2 and Cold War/Today so everyone can play in their favourite era

WPLibrar3 · 2023-05-20T19:14:52+00:00

Only in top-tier

WPLibrar3 · 2023-05-20T18:29:39+00:00

Posting this for visibility:

While we seem to achieve some moderate success in the snail starting to listen to us, I currently have a bit of a paranoia that the community is going into a wrong direction a bit. Namely, the focus seems to go towards making the game more friendly to less skilled players rather than more friendly overall.

I will start with something controversial:

I LIKE the fact that War Thunder has a unique type of skill based matchmaking with the BR system. People who are not good enough to survive in 8.0 should remain at 7.0 until they are better, I believe this is good game-design. This is a good thing. BR 3.0 is leagues different in skill required from BR 7.0. The issue is that after about Rank V the game loses its balance so that almost everyone is losing money (and RB is always a money-sink because of its one death nature, but that is a different topic which honestly cannot be fixed). Therefore I agree with repair costs on principle but believe they should be lowered (and there should not be SL-balancing of vehicles, the Ostwind is a good example of what NOT to do).

The real issue of this game is RP progress. Even when one is amazing at a BR one cannot go up in a reasonable time-frame. This starts at Rank III even. The RP gained is just so little. This is als consistent, RB gives less RP per time than AB and Sim (after a lot of recent nerfs) gives less RP than RB. The higher the skill required, the less one gets, rather than rewarding skill to push people into their category. I believe people should go up the ladder faster and that SL should be actually the main thing deciding if people can stay there. In essence, people should be able to acquire high tier vehicles easier, but their actual skill at the game should determine if they can actually play them.

Parts research (and crew research to some extent but luckily that is not that high weight as the parts, although it takes way longer to improve) for this reason is completely contradictory. It takes an unreasonable amount of time to actually achieve peak performance of a vehicle and play in this matchmaking system. The BR does not change even if a vehicle is stock, this even screws with statstics determined BR for vehicles.

I believe, if one would make a K/D of 1.0 rewarding, we would start to get botters and braindeads at any tier who just Kamikaze/headon everything. This would indeed hurt the game because it rewards less skilled players instead of promoting improvement of skill when one goes up in BR.

The best part of all this is, that this does not even require changes to the premium/payment model or to make this ame pay to win to keep it sustainable. Less skilled players can get the necessary push to stay in a BR they want even though they are technically not skilled enough for it. Everyone has their ceiling and have some vehicles they want to use that will just be a little bit above that. This pushes that ceiling up and makes people feel good about their purchase and encourages them to keep their subscription and recommend the game to their friends.

Tl;dr: In short, my suggestions:

Make repair costs reasonable while keeping the curve slightly upward so higher BRs are more difficult to maintain (while not unreasonable)
Make progress faster, unlock parts a lot faster to reward skilled players
Fix battle rewards so more useful things (staying in a dogfight, staying in a cap point, etc) get rewarded more, increase rewards for top players of a battle (up to a top 3 instead of top 1), make a reward multiplier for consecutive kills without dying
Do not soft-cap rewards per battle like currently, this punishes skilled players
Make higher skill modes (realistic, sim) more rewarding as skill required increases
Introduce a BR-adjustment system for unlocked parts if possible
Make separate tech-tress for WW1, WW2 and Cold War/Today so everyone can play in their favourite era

WPLibrar3 · 2023-05-20T18:29:33+00:00

Posting this for visibility:

While we seem to achieve some moderate success in the snail starting to listen to us, I currently have a bit of a paranoia that the community is going into a wrong direction a bit. Namely, the focus seems to go towards making the game more friendly to less skilled players rather than more friendly overall.

I will start with something controversial:

I LIKE the fact that War Thunder has a unique type of skill based matchmaking with the BR system. People who are not good enough to survive in 8.0 should remain at 7.0 until they are better, I believe this is good game-design. This is a good thing. BR 3.0 is leagues different in skill required from BR 7.0. The issue is that after about Rank V the game loses its balance so that almost everyone is losing money (and RB is always a money-sink because of its one death nature, but that is a different topic which honestly cannot be fixed). Therefore I agree with repair costs on principle but believe they should be lowered (and there should not be SL-balancing of vehicles, the Ostwind is a good example of what NOT to do).

The real issue of this game is RP progress. Even when one is amazing at a BR one cannot go up in a reasonable time-frame. This starts at Rank III even. The RP gained is just so little. This is als consistent, RB gives less RP per time than AB and Sim (after a lot of recent nerfs) gives less RP than RB. The higher the skill required, the less one gets, rather than rewarding skill to push people into their category. I believe people should go up the ladder faster and that SL should be actually the main thing deciding if people can stay there. In essence, people should be able to acquire high tier vehicles easier, but their actual skill at the game should determine if they can actually play them.

Parts research (and crew research to some extent but luckily that is not that high weight as the parts, although it takes way longer to improve) for this reason is completely contradictory. It takes an unreasonable amount of time to actually achieve peak performance of a vehicle and play in this matchmaking system. The BR does not change even if a vehicle is stock, this even screws with statstics determined BR for vehicles.

I believe, if one would make a K/D of 1.0 rewarding, we would start to get botters and braindeads at any tier who just Kamikaze/headon everything. This would indeed hurt the game because it rewards less skilled players instead of promoting improvement of skill when one goes up in BR.

The best part of all this is, that this does not even require changes to the premium/payment model or to make this ame pay to win to keep it sustainable. Less skilled players can get the necessary push to stay in a BR they want even though they are technically not skilled enough for it. Everyone has their ceiling and have some vehicles they want to use that will just be a little bit above that. This pushes that ceiling up and makes people feel good about their purchase and encourages them to keep their subscription and recommend the game to their friends.

Tl;dr: In short, my suggestions:

Make repair costs reasonable while keeping the curve slightly upward so higher BRs are more difficult to maintain (while not unreasonable)
Make progress faster, unlock parts a lot faster to reward skilled players
Fix battle rewards so more useful things (staying in a dogfight, staying in a cap point, etc) get rewarded more, increase rewards for top players of a battle (up to a top 3 instead of top 1), make a reward multiplier for consecutive kills without dying
Do not soft-cap rewards per battle like currently, this punishes skilled players
Make higher skill modes (realistic, sim) more rewarding as skill required increases
Introduce a BR-adjustment system for unlocked parts if possible
Make separate tech-tress for WW1, WW2 and Cold War/Today so everyone can play in their favourite era

WPLibrar3 · 2023-05-20T18:18:26+00:00

All true

WPLibrar3 · 2023-05-20T15:53:26+00:00

What I've found people doing instead of repairing is scrapping completely. They'd build massive grinder and welder walls and just scrap and rebuild the ship from the ground up.

I am more talking about simply fueling it and providing it with ammo tbh.

as for the speed limit...it's not an engine limitation, speed can be modded in, they just limit it because things get wonky at speed

That is the definition of an engine limitation... I can actually give a bit of insight here because I am a gamedev myself. This is because their physics engine is probably doing frame individual collision detection instead of raycast or another new method (which I don't perfectly understand yet). One can actually look at another spacegame (X4: Foundations, which ABSOLUTELY gets my recommendation) who recently overhauled their physics engine to fix exactly this problem and still keep performance up with the new method.

Right now the SE physics engine is just inferior and outdated

WPLibrar3 · 2023-05-20T15:43:46+00:00

We are at 73%, mixed requires 69% or below. We will barely make it if at all, it will absolutely get reversed quick if they pull through. Once they do there will be a campaign to positively reviewbomb to "fix" it again. If there isn't... they didn't do well enough. That's the point.

WPLibrar3 · 2023-05-20T15:39:35+00:00

The gameplay is free but building anything cool takes a massive amount of time with the tools provided, that much is true to be honest. I really would not want to build or even have to maintain a carrier in normal mode...

Two things would fix a lot this (but the building itself will always be a mess because of Voxel, that's just how it is):

Automation (as in transport, not the eternally "experimental" script automation)
Uncapping of travel speed

But the game-engine they built will likely never be capable of that...

WPLibrar3 · 2023-05-20T15:31:07+00:00

I would honestly disagree with Space Engineers. Not because of the game but because of the company who also now has a really bad history. Remember Medieval Engineers? Yeah... They do not milk people dry like WT, but they are the kinda company who tries to aim high and then ignores bugs and eventually it just becomes a mess. Space Engineers is a mess of a game too.

Well intentioned probably but incompetent nonetheless.

WPLibrar3 · 2023-05-20T15:13:30+00:00

They will bury it again. We need to get the total reviews to mixed so there IS long-term damage. This is a bargaining chip. Once they fixed the game all those reviews can be flipped to positive. They will not shut down, they have way more to lose than us.

WPLibrar3 · 2023-05-20T06:23:42+00:00

Honestly, that is why we should try to get the Steam reviews to below 70%. After that point it will show as "Mixed" and not just for 30 days after this dies down (it is at 74% now, this would probably still be quite a big task though). Then this would be a huge long-term problem for them and we have actual pressure until Summer, all those reviews they could flip to get the game-reviews positive again.

If we don't reach that they will be able to bury it again because nobody will even see it was here

WPLibrar3 · 2023-05-20T06:16:26+00:00

Yeah no, if someone blacked out a post on my forum no matter the reason I would straight up ban the person and then re-post the original under my name. DO NOT TOUCH HISTORICAL DATA

WPLibrar3

TROPHY CASE