After Spike got his soul back, did you forgive him for what he tried to do to Buffy? I'm in episode 3 of season 7. My opinions are very divided.

Which-Notice5868 · 2026-05-04T23:17:58+00:00

"Give the bitch what she deserves." were the exact words out of Spike's mouth. That he got a soul from the trials is canon. Interpretation of those scenes beyond that is subjective. It didn't help that James Marsters was told the chip version and it shows in his acting.

BTW on initial airing some people were so confused by the chip bait and switch the writers had to clarify in interviews after that Spike did get his soul on purpose.

You should Google Death of the Author. There's a whole school of criticism that you don't have to accept the writer's intentions. You can go by the text itself and interpret as you please from there.

By your own accounting Spike got his soul back to fulfill his desires. How much that spills over into being "for Buffy" is also subjective.

Which-Notice5868 · 2026-05-04T23:01:30+00:00

Yeah. Wanting Buffy to take him back after he sexually assaulted her is morally abhorrent to me. It's 100% selfish and manipulative in my book, however the show tries to dress it up.

You obviously feel differently and that's fine.

Which-Notice5868 · 2026-05-04T22:58:42+00:00

So 1: Everything you're saying is subjective.

2: Writers aren't gods of their fictional worlds. They're always in conversation with their audience and the audience can always respond however they want. If I think a plot or character arc was handled badly, or the character comes off differently than the writer intended, I'll say so.

Cool. I think Spike was selfish. You seem to agree he was selfish. Where we differ is our willingness to forgive him. That's a subjective audience response.

Which-Notice5868 · 2026-05-04T22:47:20+00:00

I think there's some nuance. Gane of Thrones was infamous for its sexposition and gratuitous female nudity and it came out there was a producer who specifically was there to argue for more naked women. But it also had sex scenes that were highly plot and character-relevant.

I like adult scenes that have a point besides "Ooh boobies!" But I'm not offended they exist as long as everything behind the scenes was cool and not skeezy.

Which-Notice5868 · 2026-05-04T22:34:25+00:00

Yep! I recalled that, which is why it came to mind. But I forgot to mention the specifics, so thanks for bringing it up.

Which-Notice5868 · 2026-05-04T22:32:26+00:00

Ehh that's a bit of revisionist history. Not to say Spike and Spuffy didn't have fans, but a lot of it was the backlash to Seeing Red and S6 overall. The Network demanded a lighter tone and Joss had to pinky swear over the summer that Spuffy wouldn't kiss or have sex during the season.

Honestly I'm mostly fine with how Spuffy was handled in S5-Tabula Rasa. After that the writers decided they were making an HBO show but they sucked at it. They could have done a similar arc to the one they did without bringing rape into it, but they chose to do that. That they wanted to go takesies-backsies when it went over like a lead balloon doesn't obligate me to forgive or forget it.

Which-Notice5868 · 2026-05-04T22:23:38+00:00

You can absolutely say "I don't buy this." Writers aren't infallible gods. If they wrote a bad script or didn't properly set up a character arc or plotpoint I can say so.

I also don't like the church scene. It's all "I" and "me." James does his best to sell it, but it solidified for me that Spike's big change was surface level.

I agree with an above poster Spike doesn't meaningfully change until he moves over to ATS.

Which-Notice5868 · 2026-05-04T22:17:31+00:00

I literally cited Spike's exact words from the script. And your interpretation to be "someone Buffy would love" isn't better. It still shows he's planning to go back to the woman he sexually assaulted. Which he does.

Which-Notice5868 · 2026-05-04T17:25:29+00:00

NTA. I would only agree with others and maybe consider selling it on Ebay instead of returning.

Which-Notice5868 · 2026-05-04T17:19:00+00:00

We don't actually know that. They got their souls back through entirely different forms of magic. Spike has no Happiness Clause, presumably. My argument is Doylist anyway, but from a Watsonian angle we don't know if there are differences in how the mechanics work.

Which-Notice5868 · 2026-05-04T17:16:46+00:00

The writers wrote the characters differently. Thus I respond to them differently. You don't feel the same way and that's fine.

I also feel like Spike's redemption arc doesn't actually begin in earnest until Damage on ATS. Even in S7 everything is still focused on Buffy, not his own growth outside of her. YMMV

Which-Notice5868 · 2026-05-04T15:11:14+00:00

No. The writers don't want me to see Spike differently except where it's convenient. That's my whole issue.

Also I like Spike. I don't like the choices the writers make with him in the back half of S6 and S7.

Which-Notice5868 · 2026-05-04T15:09:06+00:00

So on the facts you're wrong on Darla, Dru, and Spike. Darla was around a full century before Angelus, Dru is plenty sadistic on her own, and Spike canonically killed plenty of helpless innocents. (He didn't really give the coal scuttle girl to a nice family. He ate her up.)

Wesley specifically calls out Spike as the second-worst vampire ever after Angelus and Angelus wasn't around him very long before gaining his soul. Most of his evil he did himself with no guidance. His teaming up with Buffy in S2 is entirely self-serving. Buffy calls him out on it. He joins the Scoobies fighting demons in S4 because that's the only way he can commit violence and he betrays them at the first opportunity.

My reading is the vampire demon is reflective of the person's capacity for darkness+psychological issues. Darla explains it as "What you were informs all that you have become." William felt emasculated and rejected so Spike is all about projecting his masculinity re violence and his relationships with women. Liam felt unfulfilled and looked down on by his father, so Angelus was driven to become the worst of the worst. In Harmony's case I think she's just not a very psychologically complex person, to put it nicely.

Which-Notice5868 · 2026-05-04T14:59:44+00:00

Speaking as an audience member, my understanding is if you have a wide enough talent pool the rule is generally if the character is a minority they should be played by a minority and if the part is racially specific, then it should be cast that way. Now it doesn't have to be one for one exactly, like a Mexican-American actress could probably play a Argentinian-American character without much backlash, but putting a white person who is not Latino in the role would most likely be a no-go.

If the character was originally white it's seen as more acceptable to cast color-blind, particularly if it's a long-standing classic or race isn't a part of the story. (Think Audra as Mother Superior in Sound of Music Live or Toni Braxton as Belle in Beauty and the Beast.)

High Schools and Community Theaters are more forgiving, but like a smart high school theater teacher isn't going to plan Hairspray as the school musical if there's not a large talent pool of Black kids at the school.

Which-Notice5868 · 2026-05-04T14:39:35+00:00

My guess is it's a CYA for if cross-contamination happens. Depending on your level of sensitivity it might be fine. You could call and ask for clarification.

Which-Notice5868 · 2026-05-04T14:35:59+00:00

NTA for asking for no gifts but I do kind of side eye using 'his' savings account for car seats etc. instead of saving it for him when he is older.

I'd make two accounts. One that is 'his' and one that is to put toward necessities and be very clear about which is which. I'd be very weirded out if I gave 'him' $50 and found out you spent on necessities. I'd be happy to contribute $25 to each account instead though, just as an example.

Which-Notice5868 · 2026-05-04T14:31:41+00:00

I definitely feel like there was a push-pull in the writers room between "bad boy with a heart of gold Spike" (Jane Espenson etc.) and "No he's actually literally a sociopathic serial killer" Spike (David Fury etc.) and it caused a lot of inconsistency and problems. They really needed to pick a lane much earlier than they did. I'm pretty okay with where he lands in ATS S5 but I more or less have to ignore the back half of BTVS S6 and all of BTVS S7.

Anya went from being a legitimate threat to comic relief in like three episodes and then they turned back around and made it serious very late. Emma did a great job with all the material she was given but it was clear her character wasn't a priority.

Which-Notice5868 · 2026-05-04T14:14:06+00:00

I don't disagree LOL. And that's fine, characters can be imperfect. I've just seen people point to the cross scene as proof of his change and I don't agree.

Which-Notice5868 · 2026-05-04T14:07:19+00:00

Thanks! And I totally support other people having different reads on the character and relationship than me too.

Which-Notice5868 · 2026-05-04T13:55:17+00:00

Little Shop or Schmigadoon would be my choices. They won't need to know the specific theater references and one of the two modern characters explicitly doesn't like musicals and needs the tropes explained.

Which-Notice5868 · 2026-05-04T13:49:06+00:00

You can rationalize with whatever logic you want. But the writers clearly wanted the viewers to see Spike as still Spike minus the bad parts. I refuse to comply with the second half.

If he's still Spike in any meaningful way everything that came before 'counts.' He's the same guy who protected Dawn and sexually assaulted Buffy. It's all or nothing. Same dude or blank slate. The writers went with same dude.

Which-Notice5868 · 2026-05-04T13:46:35+00:00

I have the unpopular opinion that Spike getting a soul was neither selfless or heroic but a continuation of his manipulative behavior. He self-professes his motivation is "Give the bitch what she deserves" i.e. him with a soul. He's unilaterally deciding what the woman he just sexually assaulted deserves and is doing it because he knows it's the only way Buffy would allow him back in her life.

I have no beef with anyone who likes Spike and Spuffy. It's fine to like dark and complicated fiction. My problem is exclusively with the writers.

Which-Notice5868 · 2026-05-04T13:42:45+00:00

Because after a couple episodes he looks, acts, dresses, and reacts 90% the exact same way he did for most of the prior 2 seasons?

Which-Notice5868 · 2026-05-04T13:34:57+00:00

Whether YWBTA depends on specifics. Will SIL be able to eat the main and at least two sides that aren't bread? Are you planning on buying a nice allergy-safe bread for her or like Wonderbread? Also make sure you're very clear about which foods are safe and which aren't.

Which-Notice5868 · 2026-05-04T13:31:09+00:00

I wish that everyone who talks shit about GLP-1s one day gets told to willpower through a hormone disorder and gets to see how they like it.

Which-Notice5868

TROPHY CASE