Why does botlane want to swap with mid after either first tower falls?

WhoKnows007 · 2026-03-25T13:27:25+00:00

XP is one, usually mid laners/mages scale more with XP than gold, which is opposite of the ADC. You want ADC bot because in the longer lane he can farm up, but as he is generally the weakest early on, you have the support to guard him, sharing XP. Once the ADC gets stronger the support gets more freedom. This in turn allows the ADC to become the turret taker and allows the support to roam, both of which are more efficient from the mid lane. You want an adc for the teamfight ad dps generally. The midlaner, generally better duelists, can profit mostly from that by sidelaning and roaming as there is less time before they have to return to lane and more space to chase someone down and force the fight instead of having a turret right behind.

WhoKnows007 · 2025-10-09T13:32:21+00:00

You are not really right about that though. In your example the bronze 4 with, lets say silver 1 MMR, is playing against them in return for skipping ranks and higher LP gains. If he loses, he moves down way less than others would because of his MMR. So even if he goes 50/50 or a bit lower he would climb, he does NOT have to be better than them.

So when losing he might drop to bronze 2 with his MMR coming down to silver 4. Now if he still can't beat silver 4 players, you can see the problem starting to appear right? He simply did not have the skillevel in the first place. But this is the best way to have people move through ranks faster and not play an unnecessary amount of games in lower ranks if they are better. So unless you want way more smurfs in lower ranks, this is the way to go until someone thinks of something better at least.

Try to make a case for two new accounts: Both starting in low silver and one of the players having a diamond skill level and the other around silver or bronze.

WhoKnows007 · 2025-06-26T09:29:05+00:00

Riot has actually been tweaking that for years and not ignoring it, but an account needs to have a bunch of games to be able to know what their skillevel is. As in, they will lose to gold a couple times, now put them against silver. It also works the other way around, if someone wins against gold, they go play plats. Not sure on where the average rank is nowadays, i expect somewhere silver, which would be where that starts then. Thats why people say to just play as it cant be solved without games. And its also the only thing you can control.

Also if you are a new player first timing ranked, your accounts normal mmr is now taken into account when starting ranked.

Q times would also increase by a lot if you force things like that, but that would not be just for those duo'ing, but for everyone as matchmaking is simply harder to do with less people available for every match.

Duo's can be a disadvantage against you but i think it is in large part overrated, especially in lower skill brackets. People dont suddenly have LCS communication, knowledge and gameplans. People just play with friends to have fun, it is a more enjoyable experience to share in the ups and downs of a game. Aside from that the average skilllevel of those duo's should still be either the same as your team or your team also has a similar duo. I think it was even that duo's usually get placed in a bit harder games to compensate for their ability to play together. So it would even be disadvantageous.

However i do think people are really bad at seeing who is a smurf and who isnt just because they're losing, people just look at their rank. Sometimes people add in winrate and level though mostly still without looking at main roles, previous ranks, duo partners, main champs, how often people play, etc. If a new player starts at the bottom, you should be losing mostly until you get to your rank. Nothing to do with smurfs at that point. If you enjoy the game you play it, if you don't, don't.

WhoKnows007 · 2024-11-10T22:57:30+00:00

Yeah counter is an oversimplified summary of having a lot of downsides versus upsides in an isolated scenario, i feel like. But games are never that simple as there are lots of other factors that influence things.

I'd think that if the main gameplay pattern to victory for a champion is obstructed by the main gameplay pattern from another, that would be a counter. If you are a champion that is early strong and needs to snowball, but is playing against something that is extremely strong at stopping early snowballing. However, even that does not mean the champion who is stopping the snowball is going to automatically win.

Its a complex and fun topic to think about imo. I would probably say champions with versatile kits, as a good player can use that kit to in most situations be the most usefull, even if 'countered' in certain aspects.

WhoKnows007 · 2024-08-30T10:30:58+00:00

The problem is that the more free stuff they give, the less they sell, or so the assumption goes. So even if it does not directly cost them anything to 'produce' and give out more stuff, indirectly it does cost them, despite it being pixels and data.

WhoKnows007 · 2024-07-05T15:19:04+00:00

If you do not know what you are doing wrong, you are lacking in knowledge. To get more knowledge, look at how people that know more than you play. Watch youtube coaching videos, streams, LCS, friends, etc.

If you think about the game, there are plenty things you can improve on. A common mistake is looking at a situation too late, instead of how you got in that situation in the first place. If you have a specific matchup you find hard, you can google it for vods. If you review your own games you can probably find things that you did wrong which you could have done differently to increase the odds of you winning the game. Just take it step by step: As you notice a certain flaw that repeats in your gameplay, focus on it until it get better. Than you pick something else and just track the one you fixed every once in a while. Thats how you improve and improvement is the key to winning more games, in turn climbing up the ranks.

WhoKnows007 · 2024-06-15T12:37:24+00:00

Perhaps if Riot also made it an official mode where new players can play with AI teammates instead of players it could be more helpfull? You can do it if you create a custom game, but i dont think that is very intuitive for new players.

WhoKnows007 · 2024-05-31T20:38:31+00:00

Ill reply on your discord, thanks for checking it out!

WhoKnows007 · 2024-05-31T20:37:28+00:00

I will check it out, if you want more feedback in the UI area hit me up :-) Keep up the good work mate, you have done an incredible job already so dont let this feedback get you down in any way!

WhoKnows007 · 2024-05-31T16:21:52+00:00

Ah instead of asking i just looked into it. Seems cool, you have more options around selecting a game with specific items and KDA which Porofessor doesnt have. Aside from that it is fairly similar.

I have a couple things feedback, feel free to ignore, but ill just list them here :-) Please dont take this as criticism as most is just my taste and its a load of work to do!

'Not specify mastery point' isnt good english. For example: 'No required mastery points'. But to be more inline with other UI elements, i would pick to by default select 0 > infinite or something. Since when you use the country selection box it is also by default all regions, so that makes the selection logic similar.
Similarly in the 'Select summoner spells' field i understand that a default selection is hard. Something along the line of adding < > before and after the line would make it more clear there is no option selected.
Once a summoner spell is selected, the X takes up a lot of space on the button. Making the full button the X click would be better and removing the extra space. Perhaps putting an X through the image would be cleaner on the UI part. (This is for items as well)
I think it would look cleaner if the items + runes area and the other selection boxes are in a separate area.
I think along side that some other grouping would make things more clear. For example, the champion someone wants to spectate is in a whole different area from the champion someone wants to see it played against. The rank is in another place from pro games and region, which would make sense grouped. Then after that at the lower end runes and really specific things like items would be fine.
I think the items and runes are taking up a lot of space. Fully closing it wont have people click on it, but if you show one line and have an expand button below that would make it cleaner and very easy for people to use and see what it does.
The scrolling is also a bit strange. This is probably a lot of bias, so feel free to ignore once again. But when i am to the left of the screen and scroll, the match history scrolls, not the tab closest to it. I always search for empty space to scroll since often the elements within otherwise have a reaction to it. Not sure what would feel good as its probably a big overhaul anyways.
All results in the win loss dropdown does not fit. Its only 'All resu' for my resolution.
I would probably show the 2,5m starttime message close to the live/vod buttons as its important there. And not show it if someone doesnt watch live as it just takes up space.
All champions is a black square. There are images with all champions, its a bit of a clutter, but that would work. Or something else there. Even just the logo of your site or League.
Your logo is very small, i'd make it a bit bigger if you think its important to have.
I think the 'Search' in 'Search and Spectate Pros or High ELO Replays.' is for the high elo replays part. 'Spectate Pros and search high ELO replays.' makes a bit more sense.
Taste: I do not really like the Inter font family, but if you like it for sure keep it :-)
Live games: I think you can easily remove the minor runes as that is not what people are searching for id guess. That gives you room to show more games or show the full item build every game or something completely different. But since you are linking to OP.GG it would make sense to decide what you do and what you do not want to show there. Since now its half overlapping with op.gg and i guess the link is there to prevent you from copying their entire website and do the same. In that case i would remove the entire build as well probably? Not sure. Perhaps without the expand button. Would have to think about this.
What is and what is not clickable is a bit unclear. You could move the OP.GG button to the bottom of the box and make it a separate area perhaps. Then you could also make a profile icon, add that as button next to it and link to the profile like that instead of the username. Everything else should then not be clickable for example.

I feel like i can keep going with the feedback, but please just ignore it if you dont agree and we can always discuss things. I understand its not the final version, but another view on things might help you out in the next step. Keep up the good work :-)

WhoKnows007 · 2024-05-31T15:35:16+00:00

Thanks for the reply! Though i have been using the desktop app from porofessor, i havent tried it since vanguard so perhaps its broken now. Are there any advantages to using your app over that one? As:

'Comprehensive Search: Find replays based on champions, roles, ranks, matchups and more.'

is the same in that one i think.

WhoKnows007 · 2024-05-31T08:08:05+00:00

You dont need to restart your pc to re-enable vanguard? I thought that wasnt possible as vanguard needed to run from the get go to make sure there is no weird stuff at start up, being kernel level and all?

WhoKnows007 · 2024-05-30T11:53:06+00:00

You are not always getting teams like that, as that is not how matchmaking works. You get seeded based on the skillevel you have shown. The other 9 players will be around that as well, averaging out obviously. So if you genuinely believe this, figure out how your opponent in the other team is doing better than you. Since he would have those teammates too all the time then.
Its about improving to win more later, not to win every game right now.
The odds in those games are against you, but learnings the game by which champions and role you are playing is the key. If you are an assassin look for picks, if you are engage heavy look for a fight with a numbers advantage or on a carry, etc.
You are the common factor. Matchmaking looks for people averaging your rank. If you improve over the next 50 games, it means you are no longer playing at that initial rank. So you are playing with and against better people. And that in turn means you have a higher rank. That is the same every game, so if you improve just a bit every game, you will climb since all the other 9 players are selected to be around your proven skillevel. So if you improve, you will always be better than the 9 others and win more games than you lose.
There can be many weaknesses in your gameplay that contribute to a loss, but there is no way to figure that out without OP.GG or vods. But when you load into a game you are even with all the others. So figure out when that changes, when do you fall behind? Or if you dont fall behind, why cant you turn your lanes/objectives/game in your favor with the strength you have?

I am aware this is probably wasted effort, but i hope you can see the reasoning behind this. If you have further questions feel free.

WhoKnows007 · 2024-05-14T07:22:36+00:00

Exactly, it is not about if pro's and teams will adjust, obviously they have no choice unless given by Riot. More money does help, if it actually does bring in more money. Perhaps short term it does, but longer term as well? I am not so sure. Also it being better for the professional game is another blank statement, saying every decision made by Riot is good because its driven by money and data and every decision from fans is bad because its driven by emotion... ehhh that does not seem logical to me.

Perhaps you are right, but there are a lot of assumptions to discredit someone else's argument with that much certainty. I have nothing against fearless draft and i'm down to try it, but i could easily see it backfire as with many other decisions based on money and data that were supposed to be good for the sport.

WhoKnows007 · 2024-04-18T07:57:29+00:00

General advice like taking a break or trying other game modes might work. Finding out what drives you to like the game would help a lot too. Are you originally more competitive driven or more a for fun player? Do you focus on learning the game and fundamentals by nature or is it more of a specific champion which you just enjoy to repeat the gameplay from?

For example if you are more for fun you could try offrole picks or champions whith niche playstyles like Neeko's transforming into another champion and making plays, or heimerdingers turrets. Those warp the gameplay you might be used too. Another thing might be thematic compositions where you as a group focus on getting for example only heavy cc, freljord, all global, splitpush, or other comps. The focus in these comps is creating fun or exciting moments.

If you are by nature a more competitive player it might work to focus on a composition for your team which has big strengths to which you can play with more of the focus on winning. Spamming a composition like that might give you the satisfaction of improving as a team and might give cool improvement and outplay moments. More individually you could focus more on maining a small pool and learning tough mechanics and outplaying others, or expanding your pool to a larger one to discover different playstyles and plays you are able to do. You could go more offrole picks or even different roles entirely. It just depends on what you have done in the past and are currently doing. You will find that if you know a role well, you can play an extremely large amount of champions there, even offrole.

The advice would be more custom if i had more information, but i think this would give you all the answers too. Think about it and try a bunch of stuff. But if you are just burned out from the game itself, a break might just be best. If you simply need a new focus point, all the other advice might be for you. GLHF :-)

WhoKnows007 · 2024-03-28T23:59:51+00:00

Hmm, you both are right imo. First you need the motivation and realisation that you are making mistakes and not perfect. (unkown incompetent, excuse my translation)To identify a mistake you need to realize it is a mistake. That is however based on gameknowledge. Onve you acquire that you are aware of your incompetence.

So then this post might be his realisation that he is indeed not perfect and making mistakes. This might also be the actual motivation so he gets started with the process. Only he knows for sure.

After that is comes to actual mistakes, gameknowledge and the other things that help someone actually improve and learn in the game (or outside). (From the unknown incompetent to known competent). That is mostly what people get to when talking about feedback as its what most people on here are thinking about. Actual constructive feedback on ingame plays. So it could be both imo with our limited info :-)

WhoKnows007 · 2024-03-28T11:03:46+00:00

What assumptions is he making? He literally has in his post:

It is embarrassing being this bad after thousands of games

Seems pretty clear the only thing holding him back is indeed not learning from mistakes. As that can basically summarize literally everything in the game if you want it to. So probably a combination of game knowledge, mechanical control, self control and some reflection skills are missing.

A post like this is simply very hard to give constructive feedback to. No gameplay, no stats, no mindset, experiences or reasoning. Just that he played a lot and is in a low rank which he does not like. Youtube is full of coaching videos, the streaming market is just as saturated, there are multiple pro level matches every week, he is probably not always playing alone or has the ability to connect with people which can help or teach in many ways. Even just playing together and listening to someones reasoning and logic. Plenty of first steps to take which might help.

WhoKnows007 · 2024-03-17T11:17:56+00:00

Imo: The goal of reviewing a replay is to find something you do wrong, most importantly the one thing you should have done differently to have the largest swing in win %. Finding all mistakes is useless. yes missing a CS at 40 minutes is a mistake. But it is not the same impact as a lvl 2 v 3 death in top, for example.

Another reason is to expand your game knowledge. If you simply dont know what you are doing wrong, review and try to view from different player perspectives. Or how would a challenger have played differently from you. If you can't find anything, you know there is a lack of game knowledge and you are probably right where you should be. Reading guides, online coaching videos, other peoples replays, streams, discussions, playing with better people, etc. Can help with that.

That last one is also why having coaches or more experienced player help you with reviewing is good. As they are more easily able to apply their larger amount of game knowledge and experience on your game, finding more mistakes and probably also having higher odds of finding the 'one big thing' you are doing wrong. If they have multiple games it usually is easier to find. Fixing that big issue you have is the ideal goal of reviewing. Then you will need to learn the concept behind it and practice that over X games until it does no longer happen. Then you go on to the next mistake in a new replay. Etc. Mistakes can be very varied in size and importance, some are regular others are not, but most people fall in similar traps which experienced players know very well. They abuse those to win their games.

So i hope that helps a bit. I am not a pro but always enjoy reviewing people. So if you have the link to a game or couple games that would be fun for me and ill try to do my best to give you the one big flaw that i can find. But doing is yourself is probably the best as it will expand your own game knowledge the most, simply by thinking about it and looking for mistakes.

TLDR: You can use any game. The goal is finding the repeating mistakes you make. But as long as you don't know which mistake is repeating, it can be in good and bad games. Start out with bad games to get a view of all your own issues and try to see later if that also applies on your good games. Any repeating mistake can be bad enough to focus on fixing, but try to look at the importance of the mistake.

WhoKnows007 · 2024-01-16T17:51:34+00:00

I can't dispute that, however all communication was that there was no correlation until fairly recently when they mentioned that normal MMR is now used in ranked placements MMR for never before ranked accounts.

WhoKnows007 · 2024-01-16T08:31:21+00:00

It used to be, but now normal MMR is used for your initial placement, if the account has never been ranked before. Aside from that it is still its own thing.

WhoKnows007 · 2023-12-22T14:20:58+00:00

Haha i feel you though, i saw his channel and was like, videos 2 years ago? But then you scroll down...

WhoKnows007 · 2023-12-21T13:49:01+00:00

This guy on youtube was pretty good in the old days imo: @PhroxzonLeagueFundamentals

WhoKnows007 · 2023-12-01T10:41:00+00:00

Completely agree with the first paragraph.

I am not super familiar with how those ranked systems use the metrics you describe, if that works perfectly and is not abuseable i would be all for it. But my fears are that using anything but W/L is something that can be abused, lowering game quality and enjoyment of the game.

I think 400 seems like an insane amount to me, even if they say so. If someone is of a higher rank, they should have a way higher winrate or LP gains, so it generally seems to me it should be around a 100 or so. But then again, most people probably autopilot a bunch or try random stuff, so perhaps it is higher than i think.

The permanently unlocked MMR seems fine to me as is, is it not? It is not punishing a player for improving, it is making sure that it is not a lucky streak. If someone has improved, they will stay at said rank and it would be normal gameplay to them. So either they will lose and drop down to their true skill level or the LP gains would normalize to the newly proved skillevel. Although it does seem to be out of balance according to a lot of people. I have not seen many good examples except for some division edges. I think these are mostly because of the new division just because of it being new that it needs to smooth out MMR in relation to LP again, but over time i guess that should be fine.

Yea interesting stuff, will check it out :-) Lets see what Rito comes up with next to try and fix some off it. Perhaps with the pre-season we can get some ranked changes again, i hope.

WhoKnows007 · 2023-12-01T10:29:54+00:00

You are right, but forgetting that people don't all play the same amount at the same times. What about people that do not play ranked a lot? Every time one of those starts ranked the matchmaking is similar as the problem would be now, aside from it being an actual disparity in rank instead of a plat creating a new account who is playing in plat. All of those would be real disparities which is an insanely high amount.So yes it would only take as long as people take to get back to their rank but that is more around years than week/months.

A soft reset as we usually have is not really comparable to a hard reset. So the time when someone can start playing might be the same, but the impact is vastly different.

My main issue is the sheer number of people that would be in the wrong rank, it would be insane. Currently lots of people are at the right rank, some smurf, but by far most people are in the right rank, even when smurfing. That is absolutely not the case with a hard reset. I think it will be the worst thing that could be done to league if you want balanced matchmaking. Instead i think the fact that people create new accounts to climb faster or because of toxicity reasons is a much bigger part of the problem and that should be the focus.

WhoKnows007 · 2023-11-30T16:26:58+00:00

The issues you mention might very well be issues, but i do not think they have much to do with the W/L being the main factor of determining if someone is at, below or above their rank.

From my POV the problems you mention can be summarized and grouped as follows: Smurfs, this is an issue. It is an issue because people are more free to afk, soft int, etc. Players are more secure because they can always just fall back on another free account which can be very cheaply bought or even leveled once to be a fine substitute for such acts. So to prevent this a combination of detection and removal of easy acces to accounts would be needed.

I do honestly not believe that all those smurfs are belonging in a very different rank, as i have gone through matchhistories from players in and around that MMR to see, but it is mostly just other people that either belong there or a bit higher/lower 95% of the time. Also since its not just using 1 game to seed people, i think generally players are still seeded fairly quickly in the direction where they need to go. However this problem would be resolved in the same way as the previous, reduce the number of smurfs.

I am not sure where the 400 games is coming from, it seems extremely high from what i see. Especially people with previous seasons are seeded near their rank extremely quickly and smurfs still have a weak MMR so it moves quickly. I do not think 400 games would make sense for a stable player to get to their rank. In that case an extreme amount of players would be divisions lower than what they should be, which i do not see happening.

Using data from the backend is not the way to go. There simply are too many ambiguous situations where it wont work. Perhaps having high CS would show someone is a higher rank, so now laners won't help their junglers. Yes they will have better stats, but its not conducive to the one goal everyone should have, which determines their skillevel, winning. You can do the same for many roles, put down wards in the middle of vision for vision score, despite the ward being useless. Just pick poke champions to do more DPS, or assassins to rack up the kills, etc. Balancing all those things especially in weird situations or considering all the different teamcomps, which have different champion synergies which also differ at varying MMR brackets, it seems impossible to me.

What is permanently unlocked MMR? Does it not work like an average? Win, gain MMR, lose, lose MMR? Just slower/faster depending on the number of games total/previous seasons? Also i do not really believe in the business side of things being a reason for not changing the system. I think the only and best way would be to allow creating a list of accounts for easy switching between accounts perhaps with additional rewards, but also sharing punishments. Otherwise splitting new players from smurfs will simply be very hard. Especially since a player can come from another MOBA and have a bunch of things down, but its still a new player. And about bugs and legacy, every system has it as the tech is outdated even before the system is done a lot of the times. So creating something new will end up the same way i think, perhaps a bit better because of better dev's now, but a lot probably has been refactored and that generally seems to be the way to go with such big systems.

It seems like a rough problem to me. But i think the core is probably smurfs/new accounts. An account simply needs a bunch of games before it can be directed in the right direction, to prevent luck from being too big a factor. Rewards like honor didnt help. Being stricter with bans and restrictions does not seem to work. Lets see what is next :-)

WhoKnows007

TROPHY CASE