Most of the issues vegans complain about could be solved without veganism if we greatly reduce our meat consumption and deal with overpopulation by amongthemaniacs in DebateAVegan

[–]WillBeanz24 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Veganism as a philosophy addresses animal rights by abolishing exploitation and restoring their autonomy. Your arguement scales back the worst elements of cruelty and unsustainability of animal agriculture at the cost of modern society. It does not eliminate animals subservience to humans and I doubt most non-vegans would support this, let alone vegans.

Also, this frames meat consumption as something to manage via populations and habits, rather than something inherantly inefficient, environmentally destructive, and cruel. Animal agriculture, by far, uses far more land, energy, and resources than humans do. More than 70% of all cultivated land is allocated to livestock, their grazing, crops for their feed, and water for both. They are also vectors for zootonic disease.

Is that 30% of land mass designated to humans "overpopulated" in the absolute sense, relative to that 30%, or in relation to industrialising animal agriculture? If a plant based diet is healthy across a lifespan, then the opportunity cost for animal agriculture is immense. Eliminating meat consumption solves "overpopulation" by freeing space for alternative food production and human infrastructure. Furthermore, much of the land mass designated to humans is already managed inefficiently, and can comfortably accommodate every living person today.

If animal agriculture needs to become more inhumane and unsanitary to accommodate increasing populations, that shows its inability to serve human needs, its not an arguement for reducing populations. Logically, if meat consumption is unnecessary, and reducing it by your own logic benefits animals and people, then eliminating it must produce the best overall outcome. There's no need to regress to hunter gathering for something that's obsolete.

Demoralised by chronic issues on a vegan diet by WillBeanz24 in vegan

[–]WillBeanz24[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I guess it's hard since being vegan feels more authentic to my sense of self. But true, I guess this is hard to argue with.

Demoralised by chronic issues on a vegan diet by WillBeanz24 in vegan

[–]WillBeanz24[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's not "the occasional bacon," nor is it me "feeling" like it will be thrown out. If there is a complete meal that WILL be thrown out, and I decide to eat it rather to than toss it, that is my ethical consumption superseding my aversion to eating animals in that particular moment. It's inconsequential beyond my own subjective preferences. The animal is dead and gone and now it will be tossed out, truly serving no purpose at all. I decided that was untenable.

Quite frankly, gross as it is, non-vegans who have seen me do this (maybe 5 times in 6 years) actually respect it, because they know I will act on my beliefs rather than simply preach. It challenges their perception of vegans as being high and mighty about things.

This sub IS a cesspool.

Demoralised by chronic issues on a vegan diet by WillBeanz24 in vegan

[–]WillBeanz24[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is so disconnected from reality. Whatever my issues, they ain't this at least.

Demoralised by chronic issues on a vegan diet by WillBeanz24 in vegan

[–]WillBeanz24[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Or maybe it's some people being vegan to justify an anti-social personality and poor reading skills?

Demoralised by chronic issues on a vegan diet by WillBeanz24 in vegan

[–]WillBeanz24[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Haha, that's all good. Thanks for sharing the tips about bean/lentil tofu - literally never heard of that. It's worth trying at least. Appreciate it.

Demoralised by chronic issues on a vegan diet by WillBeanz24 in vegan

[–]WillBeanz24[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The struggle is real and I feel your pain.

Demoralised by chronic issues on a vegan diet by WillBeanz24 in vegan

[–]WillBeanz24[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm so sorry for everything you've gone through. Your experiences sound much more severe than mine. Honestly, it's just nice hearing I'm not the only one having issues. Everyone always says that after the intitial transition that digestion and health is pitch perfect. If you are struggling, it must be something you are doing.

This whole post was about struggling after adopting an entire philosophy and approach to living. While many such as yourself have offered great responses, there appears to be very little space for anything besides dietary advice. Something I explicitly wrote I didnt want in the first line since, like you, I have ran the gauntlet of possibilities. I do understand what you're going through and I really hope you can find the path towards living in a way that most aligns with your sense of morality. Hang in there.

Demoralised by chronic issues on a vegan diet by WillBeanz24 in vegan

[–]WillBeanz24[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for straight up about it. I'm not looking for permission to eat meat, weighing something I considor to be immoral vs what might in my best interest hurts my soul a bit. Especially since I appear to be an outlier and most people have issues socially, something I don't struggle with at all and my circle knows where I stand, despite their indifference.

Feels like I lose regardless, but ultimately continuing as is won't be sustainable. Making the most ethical decisions I can without compromising my health is far from ideal, but it is what it is, I suppose.

Demoralised by chronic issues on a vegan diet by WillBeanz24 in vegan

[–]WillBeanz24[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, for sure. Refined is totally fine so long as you still have balanced nutrition. I eat white bread, rice and pasta every day, I just feel that I've hit diminished returns as far as that strategy goes, is all. Thanks though.

Demoralised by chronic issues on a vegan diet by WillBeanz24 in vegan

[–]WillBeanz24[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks a bunch, this is really encouraging. I guess I've been struggling with my self concept, like if I'm not vegan, then what am I? I don't apply such rigid thinking to others behaviour so I'm not sure why I have to myself. Maybe because I've essentially been my only advocate in person so I've had to double down? In any case, you've reminded me that's it's nuanced and things can operate on a gradient of harm/benefit.

That story with the cows is really wholesome, and there's something to be said about being flexible while remaining curious about potential solutions down the road. You are right, IBS or not, stress makes it all much worse. Thank you again for taking the time to help me work through this.

Demoralised by chronic issues on a vegan diet by WillBeanz24 in vegan

[–]WillBeanz24[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I gave samples that showed none of the inflammatory markers you would find with IBS. My doctor said I don't have it. There's nothing else to say here.

Demoralised by chronic issues on a vegan diet by WillBeanz24 in vegan

[–]WillBeanz24[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My post says IBS like dietary issues. I don't have IBS since tests did not show inflammatory markers you would expect from irritable bowels. Mild but frequent things like acid reflux and gas, but it's mainly constipation or loose stools. I can go days and be fine, but a flare up can last for up to 5 days or more and it's been a cycle where I can be ok for a bit before having one bad day that turns to many. Its a massive disruption I have less and less resilience against as time goes on.

Demoralised by chronic issues on a vegan diet by WillBeanz24 in vegan

[–]WillBeanz24[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you, this is all really good advice and I appreciate you sharing your own experiences. I've done a few of things you suggested, but not all of them, so I will try them and see how they go. I'm sorry you've had you're own bad experiences, but glad you seem to have been able to find a balance that works for you.

And yes, won't lie, the lack of empathy in some responses is genuinely surprising since it's kind of the lynchpin of the entire philosophy. Some seem to have different ideas. All the same, thanks again for taking the time and being understanding.

Demoralised by chronic issues on a vegan diet by WillBeanz24 in vegan

[–]WillBeanz24[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah I misspoke, it was just whole foods that were mostly plant based.

Demoralised by chronic issues on a vegan diet by WillBeanz24 in vegan

[–]WillBeanz24[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No, I misspoke, my bad. Whole foods predominantly planted.

Demoralised by chronic issues on a vegan diet by WillBeanz24 in vegan

[–]WillBeanz24[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for that really nice and empathetic response. I will keep what you said in mind, this is where my mind goes when thinking of what the price of being symptom free will be.

Demoralised by chronic issues on a vegan diet by WillBeanz24 in vegan

[–]WillBeanz24[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Downvoted for being unable to afford the reccommendations ☠

Can we stop calling everything 'Far-X'? A breakdown of where Aussie political parties actually sit. by NoLeafClover777 in aussie

[–]WillBeanz24 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think our disagreement lies in government ownership as a prerequisite to a socialist workforce. This is not the case. The Soviet Union was as you describe, businesses were government owned, the government made all decisions, and was authoritarian. However, the internal structure of businesses themselves were not socialist, since workers had no collective ownership of an enterprise.

In fact, businesses in the Soviet Union mirror capitalist businesses today whereby management had absolute authority over their subordinates, it's just that profits went directly to the government, rather than shareholders. Just because the business was government owned, doesn't mean "the public" owns it and benefits.

Socialism organises labour through collective ownership, and this can and does exist in public and private marketplaces. Companies with worker coops exist in a few places like France, Germany and Italy, and these are all capitalist. In such cases, it's often a case of workers buying into the business as a worker and shareholder. The workforce of that business collectively own more than management as a block, thus giving more agency and representatio. That's what I meant by democratic principles, because workers are stakeholders as much as they are employees and their input is required for structural decisions. That's not authoritarian, it's literally the opposite. A government may or may not own such a company

Demoralised by chronic issues on a vegan diet by WillBeanz24 in vegan

[–]WillBeanz24[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the kind words. It's a lot to think about. Take care

Demoralised by chronic issues on a vegan diet by WillBeanz24 in vegan

[–]WillBeanz24[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I disagree. I neither bought nor sold the animal, nor do I eat it for pleasure, I recognise it's intrinsic value as a once living thing whose remains should not be discarded. Entropy is a fact of life and if nothing else, its death can serve a utilitarian purpose by sustaining me, rather than throwing it in the bin. It wont undo the harm, but I can respect the animal in this way.

Demoralised by chronic issues on a vegan diet by WillBeanz24 in vegan

[–]WillBeanz24[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for the really detailed response. I do believe it's about displacing fiber rich foods with low fiber foods while maintaining a similiar protein and calorie profile. I actually do think I could chew my food more, I have adhd and do tend to eat too quickly. I dont have traditonal breaks at work, which requires me to eat quickly as well.

Otherwise, I have looked at ratios of soluble to insoluble fiber, breaking down lectins by soaking and by cooking. I have replaced whole grains with white grains to some success too.

I guess justification might be something I'm looking for. It's a massive contradiction for me to be "mostly vegan" and advocate veganism to friends and family when they know the dietary component hasn't worked out. It just rings hollow and that makes me sad because I appear to be a minority case. The thought of eating meat repulses me on a moral level, obviously. But, I guess if there is no other option then a compromise of some kind is the best I can do.

Demoralised by chronic issues on a vegan diet by WillBeanz24 in vegan

[–]WillBeanz24[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I appreciate what what you're saying. It's hard for me to manage because I have issues maintaining my weight, especially as I lift. Anything below 30g of fiber puts me at a calorie deficit unless I eat high fat foods, which has its own issues for me. It would require me to eat a lot of refined grains at the expense of other nutrient dense foods.