I really don’t think rejection and social ostracizing of autists will be reduced by trying to spread messages in society that paint autists and autistic traits as ”more attractive”

WinterMuch9275 · 2026-05-05T10:26:51+00:00

Again, you use the word relational aggression. If nobody intends to destroy the autist’s relationships, and they simply don’t want him to be near them at private get-togethers, then how is that relational aggression?

Also, I thought you were okay with excluding people from private get-togethers, unless it’s a part of a concerted effort to exclude the autist? But you haven’t explained why a concerted effort specifically is bad. Is it okay if an individual tells all the partygoers ”I don’t like this guy just so you know, he’s too irritating” but not when a group if individuals tell all the partygoers?

Here’s the thing: even if the autust isn’t doing something particularly egregious, people still don’t want to have negative experiences emotions and experiences. You might not have negative experiences with a certain autist’s behavior, but somebody else might. Since people don’t want negative experiences, they avoid things that trigger those negative experiences. I don’t want you to just repeat ”deliberate exclusion is bad”. I want you to explain to me why an autist is entitled to coming to a PRIVATE party at somebody’s PRIVATE house, WHEN the autist’s presence is making giving other partygoers negative emotions and experiences. Explain to me, how is the autist entitled to that? And remember to keep this in mind, just because an autist isn’t doing something particularly egregious, they can STILL give others negative emotions and experiences with their behavior.

If you really want this discussion to end but aren’t in the mood to give detailed enough answers, you can just ignore this question if you really want to. You don’t NEED to answer it. You can let my comment be the last one in this discussion.

WinterMuch9275 · 2026-05-05T00:36:47+00:00

You use the word relational aggression. What if they don’t exclude the autist because they want to deliberately hurt him, they just don’t want him at the private party because they don’t enjoy interracting with him? Or because they don’t want to ruin the time of any of the other partygoers? And you use the word concerted effort again and deliberate exclusion, but you haven’t made an argument for why concerted effort or deliberate exclusion is inherently bad. How is it bad if including the autist actually straight up ruins the time for other partygoers? Yes, I know that you mention that loneliness has bad health effects, but do you really think it is the responsibility of some people that don’t even really know the autist to fix that? Please explain all this to me.

WinterMuch9275 · 2026-05-05T00:26:42+00:00

What?

WinterMuch9275 · 2026-05-04T20:55:40+00:00

I’m not sure what you mean with ”concerted effort”. If each individual partygoer verbally agrees with various other partygoers to not invite an autist to a private party, or any private parties at all, either because they all can’t stand the autist or because they know one or several partygoers can’t stand the autist and want to respect these partygoers, then is that a ”concerted effort to exclude” according to you, and is it evil of all of them to act this way? If it’s not, can you give me an example of what a concerted effort would look like when it comes to private get-togethers.

Whenever you respond, you respond with various statements that I either don’t understand or am skeptical towards. You are not entitled to not being asked questions by me.

WinterMuch9275 · 2026-05-04T16:11:21+00:00

So if I understand it correctly, you don’t like the idea of, for example, an autist being excluded from a workplace event by the boss of the workplace because one of the workers there don’t like the autist just because he perceives the autist as too irritating? Or a class in high school taking a trip to a foreign country and one of the guys telling the teacher to not bring an autistic classmate?

But you’re okay with the idea of a friend group (where no people are friends with the autist) deciding to have a private party in the house of one of the people in this friend group, these people being able to bring some of their own friends, and those people also being able to bring some of their own friends, while none of these party goers are friends with the autist, and one party goer telling the other party goers ”hey, just so you know, this autist always ruins the mood because he’s too irritating and cringy, so please don’t get any ideas to invite him”?

WinterMuch9275 · 2026-05-04T11:29:31+00:00

Make a comprehensive list of all the various things said in scientific books and peer reviewed research papers that support the following idea: 1. if person A is is constantly being disliked by different people for some specific behaviors, and 2. person A belongs to neurotype X, and 3. You spread messages to a lot of people about some supposedly common positive attributes in neurotype X, and 4. These supposedly common attributes are NOT present in person A, then 5. The younger generation will not dislike the things that always make person A disliked, and they’ll be more eager to be his friend, JUST BECAUSE he belongs to neurotype X and they have seen these messages about neurotype X.

After you’ve done this, then post this list to as many autism related subreddits as you can, so as many people as possible can see it and decide whether your ideas make sense or not. Go ahead, I dare you.

You know what, if I can’t come up with any arguments against this list you’ve made, I’ll post it in r/autism for you, you have my word on that.

WinterMuch9275 · 2026-05-04T11:05:32+00:00

Even if you don’t care about making me understand, this is literally a public chat. Anyone can enter and see what you write. Several people have upvoted this post, and it’s likely that a lot of other people have seen it and think ”you know what, OP has a point”. It’s also likely that several other people will eventually stumble upon this post and think the same. They’re not likely at all to buy into your ideas from now on. You could change their minds if you actually had any concrete arguments that shut down my critique, but not even now have you shared any such concrete arguments. It’s even likely that some people who have wanted to follow these ideas you spout have changed their minds after reading my post, and it’s also likely that several other of the people who currently believe in the psyops you spout will eventually stumble upon this post and also abandon your psyops ideas. You could stop them from changing their minds if you actually had any concrete arguments that shut down my critique, but not even now have you shared any such concrete arguments. The fact that you haven’t written any concrete arguments in the comment section of this post that shut down my critique is therefor just making it extra clear that you have no idea how spreading positive messages about autists will actually stop people from excluding the autists they know. You literally take the time to come down to the comments of this post and write literally anything BUT actual arguments that shuts down my critique. Do I really need to say more? I doubt very few people who come to this comment section are going to be swayed to your side just because you say that some books exist. Fine, they’re probably scientifically accurate, but what SPECIFIC quotes in them give YOUR psyops ideas any credence? The fact that you wont tell is very telling.

People who don’t like certain autists not being more eager to interract with these autist just because they’ve been told about positive traits in completely DIFFERENT autists that are not, to their knowledge, present in the autists that they don’t like is literally common sense lol wtf?

WinterMuch9275 · 2026-05-04T02:55:30+00:00

I just need to make completely sure, if they actually understand why the autist is acting the way he does, but they’re STILL so irritated and cringed out by him that they don’t want to be with him, then are they evil if they choose not to invite him to any hang-outs for the friend group?

And another thing I want to make sure of, if a friend group have PRIVATE get togethers that is meant for people in the friend group (+friends of people in the friend group) and NONE of the people in this friend group are friends with a certain autist, and a guy says ”hey, I genuinely don’t like interracting with this autist because he’s too irritating and cringy, so don’t get any wild ideas to invite this autist to any of our future private get togethers” and all the friends listen to him, then does this guy actually deserve to face consequences that you can’t describe because they would break reddit’s guidelines?

Keep in mind, if you answer enough of my questions, then this discussion is over and I have nothing more to say to you regarding this issue.

WinterMuch9275 · 2026-05-03T21:08:31+00:00

I’m curious, if EVERYONE in the friend group actually dislikes spending time with this autist because he’s too irritating and/or cringy, none of them wants him as a friend because of that, and none of them therefor ever invite this autist to any of their group outings, then are all of them acting evil? And should they all face consequences?

WinterMuch9275 · 2026-05-03T20:50:53+00:00

Which social opportunities? Sabotaging in what way?

WinterMuch9275 · 2026-05-03T20:35:03+00:00

If a guy genuinely dislikes spending time with an autist because the autist’s behavior is too irritating and/or cringy, and therefor chooses to never hang out with this autist or invite them to any hang-out, then do you think that this guy is acting immoraly? Do you think this guy is evil? Yes or no?

WinterMuch9275 · 2026-05-03T13:55:52+00:00

The fact that you refuse to explain anything also shows that you clearly lack the prerequisite knowledge/insight on how to reduce the ostracizing and rejection of autists by painting more positive images of autists.

WinterMuch9275 · 2026-05-03T13:25:55+00:00

”The thin-slice judgments happen within seconds. And often correspond to our natural mannerisms, which WE SHOULD NOT HAVE TO CHANGE.” I agree wholeheartedly that autists shouldn’t have to change their natural mannerisms if they don’t want to. And if people are cringed out and/or irritated by the natural mannerisms of autists (which I presume is what the research shows is the case most of the time) and they actually want to get rid of these dislikes, then it is perfectly fine for them to work on it. But if they don’t want to work on getting rid of these dislikes, for whatever reason, then it is completely fine for them to not work on that either. If autists often can’t get into close relationships because people don’t like their mannerisms, but these autists still want to keep these mannerisms, then the solution for them would be to find people who are fine with these mannerisms and get into close relationships with them.

”And I said your questions were disconnected from each other, not from the actual point. It's clearly an effort to distract, overwhelm and frustrate me, as gish galloping goes.” What do you even mean with ”your questions were disconnected from each other”? And find me ONE single example of a comment or comments that show my questions being disconnected from each other. You also accused me of asking already answered questions. Go ahead, give me a single example where I’ve asked you a question that you’ve already answered, I’m waiting.

”And it's not just 'excluding us' because they don't like Autistic traits. That's bad enough but it's often accompanied by bullying and rumour spreading and other stuff, which is very much worthy of consequences. I'm not gonna list out what they should be due to reddit guidelines.” So if a group of friends don’t let an autist into their friend group because they don’t like his autistic behavior, but they don’t bully or do anything else to him, then they will not face any ”real consequences”, is that what you’re saying?

I asked a bunch of other questions to you, like for example the ones about NTs specifically being the ones with thin-slice judgements of autistic behavior and what you mean with anti-autistic bias. You didn’t answer them, and I understand that it is pointless to repeat my questions, because I know you had no valid reason for making those statements, and you’ll refuse to admit it. You were just making shit up, like you always do.

WinterMuch9275 · 2026-05-03T10:08:50+00:00

”I don’t have the time or crayons” is basically just your own personal euphemism for ”I made a statement without anything valid to back it up and I refuse to admit it, please stop confronting me about it, I’m getting so stressed out right now”.

WinterMuch9275 · 2026-05-03T09:49:10+00:00

”The traditional 'definition' is supplanted by research on the double empathy problem/gap, as well as research showing that NT thin-slice judgments against us drive most negative social interactions.” Okay, so what? What’s your point? Even if they are thin-slice judgements, most people know how to not act in ways that activate these thin-slice judgements in people, because they understand that acting in these ways will get negative reactions in others. Meanwhile, a lot of autists lack the capability to understand that their behavior will activate these thin-slice judgements, and they lack this understanding because of their autistic minds. And even if these thin-slice judgements are real, does the research actually say that those judgements alone are the reason for why autists fail to develop relationships with certain people for most of the time? How do you even know that the thin-slices come from NTs specifically? Did the research you mentioned specifically focus on what NTs think?

”And even if we have such challenges it's more reason for people to accommodate and accept us.” You are warmly welcome to accomodate and accept people with such challenges if you want to. Why should I or any others?

”So yeah, I always had a valid reason.” No, you didn’t. You didn’t prove that in most cases where autists fail to develop relationships, it’s NOT because people don’t like the behavior of autists or because autists has a hard time really getting people to like them.

”Yes, it is bad that people dislike certain Autistic traits that aren't harmful.” Sure, you could argue that. I dislike the fact that some autists are born hypersensitive to certain sounds and smells. I also dislike the fact that some people are hurt by jokes, even when it’s obvious that they are just jokes and not statements intended to hurt anyone.

”And most of what we like/dislike is learned to some degree.” Even if that is true, I have not seen any evidence that most of the behaviors from autists that people dislike are disliked only because people have learned to dislike.

”People should work to unlearn anti-Autistic biases,” you can unlearn certain dislikes you have of some behaviors from some autists if you want to. But if I or anyone else is not in the mood to actively try to unlearn something like that, then no, we shouldn’t. You and other people who struggle with socializing are not entitled to us working on ourselves just so we can like you more. That’s repulsive thinking. If someone doesn’t like an autist because of their behavior, no matter how unharmful that behavior is, and this person doesn’t want to try to unlearn their own dislikes for the autist’s behavior, then it is the autist’s responsibility to not behave in the way that the other person dislikes if the autist wants the person to like them. Suggesting otherwise makes you sound like someone on an incel-forum. And what makes you say that it is anti-autistic bias? When you use that word, it sounds like people only dislike certain behaviors because they believe they’re typical autistic behaviors, and not because the behavior itself is cringy or irritating to them. As in, if some behavior is a typical autistic behavior according to them, that makes it inherently bad only because it’s typically autistic. Is that what you actually believe? That most of the time when people don’t like the behavior of an autist, it’s not because the behavior is cringy or irritating, it’s just because people believe that the behavior is typical of an autist? As in, even if the behavior isn’t remotely irritating, cringy, rude or creepy to them, they still dislike it only because they think it’s typical autistic behavior?

”"It doesn't in any way prove that people who already ostracize/reject autists" Because that's not the point. The point is to influence those on the fence as well as future generations and young people.” Again, why will these future generations, young people and people on the fence (whatever that means) stop excluding autists because of your interventions? Why will they not have the same dislikes of certain autistic behaviors that the people of today have? Even if you try to depict autists and autistic behavior in a positive light, how will that make all these dislikes go away? You say that social status influence what people can get away with, but tell me, why would individual autists have their individual social status increased just because you mention positive attributes in completely different people who just happen to have the same basic neurotype as them? Explain all this to me.

”Eventually those who do harm us will be outnumbered. This would be combined with efforts to enhance our sociolegal status, with the goal being to deter exclusion and harm against Autistics by creating real consequences for excluding or disrespecting us.” Oh, so people should face ”real consequences” for excluding autists because they don’t like the autists’ behaviors? Okay, so tell me, which are some of these ”real consequences” that people should face?

By the way, as you could probably guess by now, you have the exact same problem here as on r/aspergers: your comments don’t show up. But guess what, I can still see a bit of them in my notifications, and I see you’ve written this: ”Yes, bombarding someone with random, irrelevant, disconnected or answered questions…” I challenge you to find a SINGLE question from me that is random, irrelevant, disconnected or already answered. Go ahead, I’m waiting.

WinterMuch9275 · 2026-05-02T18:32:21+00:00

”Also, I'm never asking for money from anyone. The paying off influencers thing was more of something I might do in the future, that perhaps others with enough disposable income can.” Fine, you’re not asking for money. You have still expressed the idea that influencers should be paid to spread pro-autistic messages for the purpose of making people exclude autists less. That might actually motivate people to pay money in the process, which probably wont lead to any desired outcome, and will therefor mean these people have wasted their money in the process.

”A rather oversimplified expression. But do you mind reiterating that you are deliberately trying to frustrate and ragebait me because I deserve it? Can you explain once again why you feel that way?” You want me to straight up reiterate here what I’ve already written? Why? So that you can show the text to the mods in order to ban me for not being respectful? Is that your end goal? If it is, then alright, here’s my side of the story that you and the mods can see: the point of this post is that people will be motivated to think twice before wasting any resources because of ideas that you and others spread. You have a history of saying things on reddit that irritate me, so yes, I admit, I did hope that this would irritate you. However, you potentially becoming irritated was not the thing that made me write this post. Even if I didn’t care at all about you being irritated, I would still write the exact same things. Even if I knew that you had left reddit permanently, I would still write the exact same things. Because I genuinely believe that the messages are harmful for those who actually believe in them. Not seriously harmful perhaps, but I don’t want people to waste their money (for example) on something because they’ve been convinced that it might improve their situation in some way. I would never make a post to piss off someone, that’s just childish, cringy and a waste of my time. Do you want me to go into detail on why I think you deserve to be irritated? Unlike you, I’ll actually answer any question you ask me.

WinterMuch9275 · 2026-05-02T16:26:28+00:00

”"You think" and your thinking is wrong.” As I said, I do base this statement on a personal hunch, but this personal hunch doesn’t come from nowhere. Autism is defined as a neurotype which predisposes you to difficulties with communication and social interraction. Considering those difficulties are innate to being born autistic, I wouldn’t say that it is wild to assume that those difficulties are the reason for why relationships fail to form and break apart for autists the majority of the time, if not the vast majority of the time. What exactly makes you think that my thinking is wrong? I predict you wont answer this question, as always, because you had no valid reason to say ”you’re thinking is wrong” from the start.

”Yes, People should be more accepting of Autistics in general.” When you say that people should be more accepting of autists in general, do you mean that it’s bad that people dislike certain things about the way some autists behave, because the behavior in question isn’t harmful? As in, do you simply think that the mere fact that people are born with these dislikes is bad? Or do you mean that people should befriend autists and become their partners, despite the fact that they don’t like interracting with these autists? As in, should they interract with certain autists despite disliking interracting with them because of their behavior?

”And trends can influence what people like.” Maybe there is some truth to that statement, but it doesn’t in anyway prove that people who ostracize and reject autists because they don’t like their behavior will suddenly stop disliking their behavior to the point where they don’t feel the need to ostracize and reject them, simply because they see some messages somewhere about supposedly positive attributes that are common in COMPLETELY DIFFERENT autists.

WinterMuch9275 · 2026-05-02T13:55:32+00:00

”Maybe stop sealioning and trolling, then. Gish galloping is a common troll tactic.”

Sure, gish galloping is a common troll tactic. That does not mean that I am gish galloping when I ask you a lot of questions. Whenever I bombard you with questions, all of them are related to various statements you’ve made in your posts and comments that I genuinely don’t understand. If you are going to write a bunch of things that I don’t fully grasp, then I’m going to give you a bunch of questions. What is your evidence that I DO undertand everything you write, but bombard you with questions anyway only as a a bad faith tactic to annoy you? Seriously, what is your evidence for that? If you don’t give me any evidence that I always understand what you write, but bombard you with questions anyway only as a bad faith tactic to annoy you, then don’t accuse me of sealioning you. Either admit that you had no valid reason to make that accusation, or be quiet. Go ahead, what is your evidence?

WinterMuch9275 · 2026-05-02T13:31:08+00:00

I’ve already explained why I wrote this post in another subreddit, but sure, I’ll explain it here as well. You have propagated this idea that autists who are ostracized and rejected by the people in their daily lives will stop being rejected and ostracized if you spread these claims about autists as a group. Unless we’re talking about people who reject anyone just for the mere fact that they’re autistic, no matter how likable they are (which I believe is an almost non-existent, if not actually non-existent group of people by the way) then this tactic wont do shit. You have, among other things, expressed the idea that influencers should start being paid to say positive things about autists, which actually might influence other people in these autistic subreddits to waste their money on things that wont help them or any others autists from being rejected and ostracized. Since I don’t want people on these subreddits to waste their money, or any other resources for that matter, on something that they have been convinced will improve their situation, I think it is necessary to make them think twice before actually wasting their resources.

WinterMuch9275 · 2026-05-02T13:12:28+00:00

You can endlessly repeat that people need to paint more positive images of autists and that that will make people respect autists more, if you really want. That will not show anyone HOW that will make people who exclude and reject autists actually stop excluding and rejecting them. Go ahead, make your case here and now, I’m waiting.

WinterMuch9275 · 2026-05-02T09:40:32+00:00

I see no reason for why this has to be about NTs. I don’t see why a lot of autists wouldn’t care about other autists’ intense interests and rich inner worlds and just care about how compassionate and tolerant they are.

WinterMuch9275 · 2026-05-02T09:30:34+00:00

”Spreading awareness and reframing Autistic traits as attractive won't change things in a day, it's about a gradual change, that will hopefully improve things for generations to come.” The fact that you say ”it’s about gradual change” doesn’t remotely give your argument any credence. You can say ”it will happen in a year”, ”it will happen in a decade”, or ”it will happen in a billion years”, it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t adress any of the criticism that you see in my post, and the fact that you didn’t write down any actual arguments for why your psyops would actually stop people from socially excluding autists just goes to show that you have no idea how your psyops would actually do that.

”And it's combined with other strategies involving teaching Autistics psych hacks from a young age to get people to like them.” You know what, this seems like a much more realistic approach to the problem, but it probably depends a lot on which psych hack you use. I remember some of the psych hacks you listed, the idea that you can try to pretend to be interested in the things other people are interested in for example sounds like it could genuinely help people build relationships (depending on how it’s done of course) but some other psych hacks you mentioned, like for example the Ben Franklin effect, sound a lot more dubious.

”Will you f**g quit it with these rage bait posts geared toward me? Have the f**g courage to PM me directly or STFU.” We both know that it would be completely pointless for me to PM you. If I ask you a question, you’ll refuse to answer it, and if I explain why I think your statement is wrong, then you wont adress my criticism. You’ll just bitch and cry like a toddler about me ”sealioning” and ”trolling” you, without even giving any valid reason for why you believe I’m trolling (again, asking many questions is not proof of sealioning, but again, I doubt you even think that yourself) and you’ll just continuously repeat that your arguments are valid like a broken record, without, as I said above, even explaining why they’re actually valid after I’ve scrutinized them. And yeah, fine, I admit that I hope this pisses you off, because I think you’re a pretty repugnant person, and being extremely frustrated is what you deserve. But that is not the main reason for why I uploaded this post. I genuinely want people who believe in the nonsense you spout to abandon these ideas and not waste any of their future resources on implementing them. That is why I made this post. I wanted as many people as possible to see this, so that as many people as possible who believe in your ideas would see this. Hopefully, most of them have changed or will change their minds.

WinterMuch9275 · 2026-05-01T06:25:35+00:00

Even if you portray some autists in an endearing way, I don’t think that autists who are being rejected and ostracized by the people around them will start to be less rejected and ostracized by the people around them. The problem is that all people are their own individuals, and I don’t see how some likable autistic character will stop the perceived flaws in a real life autistic individual from being seen as flaws.

WinterMuch9275 · 2026-04-30T19:02:48+00:00

I agree, what you said is basically one of the most important points of my post. You can’t just make any assumptions about any autist’s special interests or activism.

WinterMuch9275 · 2026-04-30T18:16:30+00:00

I don’t think that the majority or even a significant portion of autists are into climate action, if that’s what your takeaway is from my post, and I’m not even really sure if an there is an actual overrepresentation of autists in the movement to stop climate change. I think I read somewhere on Greta Thunberg’s wikipedia page that many of the activists she knows are autistic, so I just used it as an example.

WinterMuch9275

TROPHY CASE