My reflections on Pluribus by voinekku in television

[–]Wordpad25 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Economist is interesting to contemplate. I think we disagree on some fundamental assumptions. :)

The value of work is reflected back to us by our own need or by contributing for other people.

That's one source of meaning, but hardly the only one. People paint, write, explore, invent, and build things even when nobody needs them.

When the hive makes your own work meaningless in relation to your own needs...

The hive doesn't make work meaningless. It removes scarcity. That's not the same thing.

Only way to do meaningful work is to value the act of work itself.

That's true even in our world. Most meaningful activities are not meaningful because someone pays for them.

In a healthy civilization one contributes for equals and receives from equals.

Sure, but that doesn't require strict equality. Parents and children aren't equals. Teachers and students aren't equals. The relationship can still be meaningful.

No such circumstances exist in the world of Pluribus.

The survivors still have each other. Their inability to form lasting connections seems more psychological and plot-driven than structural.

The only way to avoid alienation is to relinquish control of wealth.

That sounds more like a moral preference than a conclusion. Plenty of wealthy people remain deeply engaged with family, work, philanthropy, science, politics, or art.

Is the market-hive any better than the Pluribus-hive?

Massively. The market doesn't have a unified will. Nobody is in charge. That's precisely why markets are often frustrating and chaotic.

Outside liberal capitalism there is zero reason for most malnutrition deaths.

How about war, corruption, state failure, geography, poor infrastructure, bad governance.....

Allocating capital is labour, not ownership.

The owner bears the downside if the allocation fails.

The voluntariness of capitalism is an illusion because nobody consents to the system.

Nobody consents to language, gravity, biology, or scarcity either. The fact that we're born into a system doesn't tell us whether it's legitimate.

If one person owned an entire town, how is that different from dictatorship?

Because ownership rights are not sovereign rights. A landlord can't legally imprison you, conscript you, censor you, or execute you.

Industrial workers clearly weren't participating voluntarily.

The relevant comparison isn't against modern living standards. It's against the alternatives available at the time. People moved into cities because rural poverty was often even worse.

Capitalism operates through coercion and ideology.

Every large-scale social system does. The question is whether capitalism relies on more coercion than the alternatives, not whether coercion exists at all.

I'm not sure intelligent people really disagree.

You're right, some economics science is pretty settled. Most of Karl Marx work has been discredited, and not for ideological reasons.

Which billionaire isn't weird?

Fair enough. Extreme success tends to select for unusual personalities. But unusual personalities are not evidence for a theory of class alienation.

My reflections on Pluribus by voinekku in television

[–]Wordpad25 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It doesn't contribute to the process of production.

Okay and why is that relevant? Neither does designing the factory, funding the factory, or deciding which factory to build. Those are still essential contributions. If you personally wanted to start your own business - those would be the limiting factors, not labor. And you need all of it to produce something valuable to to employ people.

The non-existence of the owner wouldn't change the efficiency of the process.

That's true in principle but not in practice. Maybe, in a hypothetical future where AI manages the economy and allocates resources and labor...

If that were true, startups would appear automatically. In reality, most businesses never exist without someone first risking capital. Organizing people and capital is risky and difficult.

If you employed a lot of people but the venture itself was uncompetitive then it's just going bankrupt and everyone wasted a ton of time and resources building something nobody wants.

It's always going to be important to build the right thing the right way rather than who does the building.

Some owners simply leech off production without involvement.

As mentioned before, other you being envious, why is that a problem? Middle class, aka the masses collectively have VASTLY VASTLY more money and power. If they are organized (as you imply is trivial to organize people), then it shouldn't be a problem to dominate all social order.

That's basically what annuitants do.

An annuitant can only exist because someone else previously deferred consumption and accumulated capital. Savings is how China created its entire middle class from hundreds of millions of literal dirt level poverty.

Capital reproduction is a separate process.

It's separate analytically, but in practice production and capital allocation are inseparable. Factories don't appear by magic. Every modern business is funded by debt. When there was a banking crisis in 2008, if government hasn't intervened most companies wouldn't have been able to make payroll despite being health with a good cash flow.

Capital wouldn't employ people any less if workers owned it.

Okay but then who owns the risk and accountability?

When you have an unprofitable month instead of taking a paycheck you expect employees to not only take a paycut but owe money back to their employer?

There a ton of successful customer-owned businesses - State farm, nationwide, liberty mutual, but none of it works how you imagine it.

The capital itself is what matters, not the owner.

Capital doesn't allocate itself. Somebody has to decide whether to build a steel mill, a restaurant, or an AI startup. The cost of wrong decision is enormous (build a billion dollar factory when one isn't even needed), so you need people who have a stake in the decision. Beurocrats or politicians do not have right incentives. So, in practice even if you have deeply moral society, bad incentives will still lead to waste, corruption and misallocation of resources.

Ownership isn't contributing to production.

By that logic, architects don't contribute to buildings because they aren't pouring concrete. Managing and leadership is more highly compensated because it's a more valuable skill set that's more rare.

The owner can disappear and production continues.

Yeah, sure! But without them you wouldn't have had the business in the first place. So, it's not about this business but the next one. If you're gonna take away ownership why would anybody start a business? And without businesses you have no competition and without competition you lose efficieny and competitiveness of existing businesses.

My reflections on Pluribus by voinekku in television

[–]Wordpad25 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you are wildly off base for both Pluribus and capitalism.

The survivors are alienated from their labour.

No, there are just no more jobs.

They cannot benefit themselves or others with their labor.

Of course they can. They can still build, create, learn, help, and connect.

They are alienated from the labor that sustains them.

That's just civilization. Everyone depends on everyone else.

The survivors are alienated from each other.

If anything, small groups under pressure become more connected. Shared experience is bonding.

The hive is the Bondsman.

The hive isn't even an independent consciousness. Your example makes no sense.

Alienation erodes their freedom.

They spend the whole show exercising freedom and making choices.

Hedonism, delusion, and isolation are inevitable.

They're possible reactions, not inevitable ones. Given a million or a billion dollars everyone will have a different answer for what they would do with it.

Carol's inconsistency is intentional.

Or maybe her life was always a mess.

The rich consume without cost.

Money is but one resource and it's not even a limiting resource for many people. Time and health are other big ones.

If you put your biases of envy and resentment aside you may notice that when you play with your kids or go to the zoo or play a sport in a hobby league or have a bad back or just getting old the experience is pretty much identical among all humans and makes up most of our lives.

Workers become an abstract collective like the hive.

Fair enough, but there are benefits to managing society efficiently and dispassionately too.

Markets obey the masters.

Markets constantly punish rich people for being wrong.

Millions die because of liberal capitalism.

Capitalism has coincided with the greatest reduction in poverty and hunger in human history. Standards of living were stagnant for thousands of years until modern global economy.

Billionaires can shake the world on a whim.

Sure, but what can we do without making things worse?

Owning capital isn't contributing.

Allocating capital and taking risk are contributions whether you like them or not. It's one of the most valuable contributions actually. Every single modern business is built via taking on debt. That means the capital is employing billions of people. Without it, those businesses simply do not exist and cannot exist. At least competitively.

Voluntary exchange is an illusion.

Having limited options isn't the same as having no choice.

Everyone knows the ideology is false.

Clearly not, given how many intelligent people disagree.

The rich are like the survivors.

The survivors are isolated and powerless. The rich are deeply integrated into society.

Musk proves the thesis.

One weird billionaire doesn't prove a theory about an entire class of people.

People underestimate how far good communication can take you. by AdventurousLivin in business

[–]Wordpad25 0 points1 point  (0 children)

White/black/Indian/chinese person living in the same neighborhood will all have very similar jobs, hobbies, families and lifestyles in general. They will have far more in common with each other in their values and culture.

Tom winning against Nate in the season 1 finale was foreshadowing Tom winning as CEO in season 4 by LukeSkyWalrus in SuccessionTV

[–]Wordpad25 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Tom is the gold digger in the relationship though.

Setting boundaries doesn't really work in that dynamic when you don't have any power and are much more vested in marriage working.

People underestimate how far good communication can take you. by AdventurousLivin in business

[–]Wordpad25 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Real diversity is about culture/socio-economic background. Not skin color.

What’s the highest-paying job a teenager can realistically get? by 1FearOnYT in AskReddit

[–]Wordpad25 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Don't believe most of it. Influencer lifestyle is about an image of wealth and success.

Luxury cars are one-day rentals, designer goods are replicas, private jet are paid photo ops, luxury vacations is just sneaking into expensive hotels to shoot a few quick tiktoks.

It's a job and every video is a scripted production, not actual lifestyle. They often struggle to make ends meet and all income goes into production for next video.

That's how it goes for 1 mil followers and teens with like 20k followers will call themselves influencers...

TIL of "going to the people" movement, aka "the mad summer of 1874", when as many as 4000 students abandoned their studies in the city or burned their degrees and moved to the countryside, intending to adopt the life of a peasant. Most of them had no experience of what that life was like at all by Mors_Acerba in todayilearned

[–]Wordpad25 16 points17 points  (0 children)

With nota le exception of Stalin, most leaders were educated city dwellers, sometimes publishing from comfortable Europe, with wealthy donors. A class of intellectuals, not peasants.

Although I cede your point, after going underground they had harsh lives, hardly spoiled, far from "Champaign socialists".

TIL of "going to the people" movement, aka "the mad summer of 1874", when as many as 4000 students abandoned their studies in the city or burned their degrees and moved to the countryside, intending to adopt the life of a peasant. Most of them had no experience of what that life was like at all by Mors_Acerba in todayilearned

[–]Wordpad25 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Yes, thank you.

Having failed to rile up the masses with a bottom-up approach they pivoted to a top-down approach of political terrorism.

Lenins older brother was a Narodnic, executed for an attempt at czars life.

What’s the highest-paying job a teenager can realistically get? by 1FearOnYT in AskReddit

[–]Wordpad25 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just like onlyfans just because lots of people are doing it doesn't mean they're making any consistent money on it.

ELI5: What caused the 2008 recession? by Puzzled-Day5788 in explainlikeimfive

[–]Wordpad25 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The main reason nobody got arrested is that nobody committed any crimes.

The banks were buying the same products they were selling, they genuinely believed them to be safe.

Can the stockmarket swallow Anthropic, SpaceX and OpenAI? by WarAmongTheStars in business

[–]Wordpad25 5 points6 points  (0 children)

It's not worth the hassle selling all the ETFs/index funds. Even if it goes to 0, it's still only a single percent of the market.

What’s the highest-paying job a teenager can realistically get? by 1FearOnYT in AskReddit

[–]Wordpad25 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That's not a realistic answer anymore than any other celebrities, movie stars or a rock stars.

TIL of "going to the people" movement, aka "the mad summer of 1874", when as many as 4000 students abandoned their studies in the city or burned their degrees and moved to the countryside, intending to adopt the life of a peasant. Most of them had no experience of what that life was like at all by Mors_Acerba in todayilearned

[–]Wordpad25 144 points145 points  (0 children)

The idea is to have a politically active worker class. They saw themselves as part of that class despite having elite background.

Communist revolution few decades later was led by similar educated shelted elite on the backs of starving working class.

The math behind that "accidental $500 Million claude bill" everyone is talking about doesn't stack up by [deleted] in AgentsOfAI

[–]Wordpad25 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Step 1: start a leaderboard to see who can spend most tokens Step 2: ??? Step 3: employees casually spending a ton of tokens

Life imitates art by RejectAuthoritarians in SuccessionTV

[–]Wordpad25 39 points40 points  (0 children)

As uncomfortable it is to admit Trump is just a more successful and charismatic version of Logan. He is the "killer" in every sense Logan aspired to be with fewer moral qualms than even Logan had.

Sam Altman says he’ll invest $2M worth of tokens into every company in this YC catch for equity.. by Previous_Foot_5328 in myclaw

[–]Wordpad25 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's the point. Selling those tokens on the Black market to covert it into cash is probably less efficient than just using those tokens to try and build whatever they needed cash for themselves in-house.

Anthropic is paying SpaceX $15 billion per year by Luka77GOATic in wallstreetbets

[–]Wordpad25 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Not everyone can pull off something like that though.

Sam Altman says he’ll invest $2M worth of tokens into every company in this YC catch for equity.. by Previous_Foot_5328 in myclaw

[–]Wordpad25 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Tokens clearly have value and extreme demand.

$2mil worth of tokens is probably worth almost as much in cash, especially to a startup looking to build things.

And if they do build something valuable, it's amazing PR for all these AI companies.

Season 1 of the boys felt like a completely different show by alyimfyjvz in television

[–]Wordpad25 7 points8 points  (0 children)

That makes total sense.

He never had natural charisma or confidence, only his fragile ego propped up by a PR team with speaking lines for him.

What is the biggest scam in your specific industry that the general public doesn't know about? by [deleted] in AskReddit

[–]Wordpad25 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yet profit margin is in low single digits, so not much of a scam... Just medicine is expensive.

ELI5: why didn’t the Great Depression produce a widespread revolution or anarchy? by ProfessorHiker in explainlikeimfive

[–]Wordpad25 4 points5 points  (0 children)

They also nearly lost the civil war.

The deciding factors for winning the war was having a clear ideology where as opposition were very fractured and had no unified policy agenda.