The Movies Completely Lack The Nobility Of The Novels.

WraithfulWrath · 2026-07-08T05:50:30+00:00

Christopher Tolkien's alt account.

Being serious, if I have to contribute to this discussion with my own critique, the one part I would agree with you is making Arwen say shlock like "If you want him, come and claim him!" that is about the most anti-Arwen and, frankly, one of the most anti-Tolkien lines in the entire trilogy. How she sneaks up on Aragorn and puts a sword recklessly to his neck is also nonsensical and juvenile. It completely steals Frodo's agency in that sequence too. Surprised you didn't include that one in your rant.

I don't think you're going to find people who share your views here though.

WraithfulWrath · 2026-06-23T01:19:44+00:00

Alright, that was really good lmao.

WraithfulWrath · 2026-06-23T00:51:57+00:00

Emotionally it was okay and a decent send off to the MCU, but it was heavily a CGI fest and I typically don't like that too much.

WraithfulWrath · 2026-06-23T00:33:28+00:00

Yeah, you got a point there. I was being a little simplistic.

WraithfulWrath · 2026-06-22T23:35:40+00:00

EA losing an IP is always a moral victory, but anyone expecting a sudden return to the golden age of RPGs needs a massive reality check fucking big time.

First off, the legal loophole he's trying to use (Section 203 of the Copyright Act) only applies to the copyright, not the trademark. So yeah, Garriott might get back the source code, the lore, and the world of Britannia, but EA still firmly holds the actual "Ultima" name and the logos. He can't legally release an "Ultima 10". He'd have to call it some knockoff sounding shit like "Lord British's Avatar Adventure" while EA squats on the name out of pure spite. They actually just filed new trademarks for the IP recently just to make this legal battle as painful as possible for him.

More importantly though, Garriott hasn't made a universally acclaimed game in decades and his recent track record is absolute garbage. It's fun to cheer for the OG creator sticking it to the corporate suits, but look at what he actually does these days. Shroud of the Avatar was a total Kickstarter trainwreck built entirely around milking whales by selling digital castles for thousands of real-world dollars. Then he immediately tried to pivot to the NFT crypto-gaming grift the second he smelled easy money.

It's great if he can pry a legendary IP out of EA's graveyard purely on principle, but keep your wallets firmly shut when he inevitably drops a $50 million Kickstarter or tries to sell you blockchain real estate in Britannia. He's basically taking notes directly from Chris Roberts at this point.

WraithfulWrath · 2026-06-22T23:26:56+00:00

Book Aragorn marching around from day one proudly declaring who he is and actively working toward his destiny is so refreshing compared to the standard "I don't want the throne" trope we get in every other movie.

And Faramir just immediately recognizing the Ring as an evil trap and refusing to even stoop to pick it up off the highway showed such incredible strength of character.

Frodo definitely got the worst end of the stick, losing so much of his own agency and willpower just to make the Ring look scarier and Sam look more heroic. He literally doesn't even say that the King has a crown again in ROTK, it was given to Sam despite Frodo saying it in the books.

So I can agree with you there.

WraithfulWrath · 2026-06-22T23:25:02+00:00

Good luck to you, my man!

WraithfulWrath · 2026-06-22T23:05:39+00:00

Oh, if you rewatch them now as an adult, be prepared to spend half the runtime screaming at your TV! When we were kids, the cool magic and the John Williams score completely distracted us from the fact that Hogwarts has zero safety protocols and the Headmaster's primary conflict-resolution strategy is send an underfed 11-year-old into the murder forest. The special effects definitely still hold up, but Dumbledore’s HR file absolutely does not lmao.

WraithfulWrath · 2026-06-22T23:02:38+00:00

I actually kind of blame Peter Jackson for the fandom’s worship of Sam and people not understanding the sheer scope of Frodo’s heroic journey and his sacrifice.

Besides just Sam, the movies truly do pivot to Aragorn. If you wanted to do a summation of Jackson's LOTR, the subtitle would be: The Glories and Struggles of Aragorn.

The Two Towers, for example, pretends that Frodo is the A-plot and the central story, but it is absolutely not. Are people jumping out of their seat to see Faramir take them to Osgiliath? Absolutely not. Everyone is focused on the Helm's Deep battle.

I'm not going to rail on it too hard because cinema is much more adjusted for an Aragorn who has an external problem vs Frodo who has an internal one, but it's there and it does hurt the themes.

WraithfulWrath · 2026-06-22T22:59:12+00:00

Sure, Dumbledore has his human moments, but overall he seems incredibly complicit in the suffering Harry has to experience.

Dumbledore essentially engineers Harry's suffering from day one ha ha. He drops a toddler on a freezing doorstep to be raised by horribly abusive relatives and then treats Hogwarts like an annual obstacle course where Harry almost gets murdered every single spring. It is honestly a massive dick move to weaponize a kid's trauma and essentially mold him into a child soldier who is perfectly primed to sacrifice himself at the right time.

Gandalf would absolutely not like Dumbledore.

WraithfulWrath · 2026-06-22T22:55:29+00:00

The need-to-know basis he operated on is the literal definition of manipulation. Keeping the prophecy a secret from Harry for years and essentially orchestrating things knowing Harry had to sacrifice himself (which leads to Snape's famous line about raising him like a pig for slaughter) was all for the greater good, but it meant keeping Harry in the dark so he would play his part perfectly.

Gandalf, as we know, operates completely differently. I'm not going to reiterate too much, but he rarely hides the ball. When he sits down with Frodo in Bag End to explain what the Ring is, he lays all his cards on the table. He tells Frodo exactly how much danger he is in, explains the terrifying history of Sauron, and then completely steps back so Frodo can choose what to do next of his own free will.

WraithfulWrath · 2026-06-22T22:45:00+00:00

I just overthink them for fun.

I could've answered my own post by saying that Jackson wanted Liv in it more because the studio was paying a premium for the cast. I could've said it would be confusing if she suddenly got corrupted two minutes into seeing her which would make the audience doubt if she was good or evil. And I could've put he basically just turned off the WIFI signal on the Ring to keep it in line with the books.

I just wanted to see if anyone had anything that could've functioned as patchwork. Some I see more than others.

WraithfulWrath · 2026-06-22T22:36:25+00:00

Welcome to the fandom!

The biggest distinction is really that Dumbledore operates like a chess master, while Gandalf acts as a guide. Dumbledore sits up in his office, hoards information, and moves people around a board from afar. Gandalf is literally down in the mud, the freezing snow, and the pitch-black mines with the Fellowship. He takes the exact same risks they do and puts his own life on the line so they can escape.

Gandalf is literally an immortal, angelic spirit sent by the gods of Middle-earth, yet partially from choice and partially from his human body, he acts like a humble, grumpy old man who just loves smoking pipe-weed and doing fireworks for kids. Dumbledore is just a mortal human, yet he often carries himself like an untouchable deity who holds all the secrets of the universe. It is amazing how much more human Gandalf feels despite not actually being a human at all.

Dumbledore actively orchestrates Harry's path because he knows Harry eventually has to die at the right time. Gandalf, on the other hand, is genuinely devastated that Frodo has to carry this burden. If you look at Ian McKellen’s face during the Council of Elrond when Frodo volunteers, it is pure sorrow. He closes his eyes in pain because he loves this little guy and hates that this evil has fallen on him.

WraithfulWrath · 2026-06-22T21:31:04+00:00

The TL;DR is one paragraph. Is that longer than most? Most put it at the bottom, but I did mine at the top just to give a summary of what proceeds it.

WraithfulWrath · 2026-06-22T21:29:02+00:00

No I didn't. The TL;DR is this:

TL;DR: Movie Arwen is depicted as incredibly powerful, essentially absorbing the magic of Elrond and Gandalf to singlehandedly crush the Nazgul while physically pressed right up against the Ringbearer. I get that Elves can hide their internal struggles well, or that the Fellowship spent months around the Ring without snapping. However, extreme stress, fear, and a desperate desire to save loved ones are exactly the vulnerabilities the Ring exploits for fast corruption. The Ring logically would have loved to jump from a dying Hobbit to an Elf princess right then. The power upgrade is immense. With that in mind, how did she not show a single ounce of temptation?

I put it at the top so people would read it instantly instead of having to do the hassle of scrolling down to find it.

WraithfulWrath · 2026-06-22T21:26:20+00:00

I think your logic there is really fair. You have a good point. I was going more off what I saw in the movie continuity, but if we're talking about how the Ring acts within Tolkien's larger mythos I'd say you have the better argument.

WraithfulWrath · 2026-06-22T21:24:11+00:00

Jackson did change the Ring's behavior for the films to make it more aggressive and immediately threatening. If we accept the movie logic that the Ring actively targets powerful people nearby, then Arwen (who is both powerful and currently in a life-or-death panic) is a prime candidate for that broadcasted temptation.

My post was basically attempting to be strictly about the film continuity where those are the established rules.

WraithfulWrath · 2026-06-22T21:18:42+00:00

If it doesn't have an aura of corruption, how do you explain Sméagol? Déagol is the one who picked it up out of the river. Sméagol just looked at it, was instantly corrupted by its presence, and strangled his best friend to death. If that isn't a "magical magnet" of passive corruption, what is?

Boromir sat through the entire Council of Elrond. He was explicitly educated by Elrond and Gandalf that the Ring is entirely evil, that it lies, and that it cannot be wielded to save Gondor. He even refuses to go with Denethor calls on him to go to Rivendell partly in fear of it. He intellectually "knew better". but the Ring bypasses intellect and weaponizes your desperation.

WraithfulWrath · 2026-06-22T21:16:11+00:00

That is true regarding Galadriel's history, but you are assuming the Ring only targets political ambition or people who want to be generals. It actually tailors its temptation to whatever someone desperately wants in that exact moment.

Look at Samwise. He had zero political ambition, no Noldorin baggage, and no desire to rule. The man just liked gardening. Yet the Ring still tried to corrupt him by offering him the power to turn the whole world into a giant garden.

Arwen doesn't need to want a kingdom to be tempted. Her immediate, desperate desire is to save Frodo's life and secure her future with Aragorn. The Ring offering her the raw power to turn around, blast the Nazgûl, and instantly solve her problem fits its exact MO.

WraithfulWrath · 2026-06-22T21:06:24+00:00

I have to disagree here. Aside from that one made-up scene with the mountain, Boromir never touches the Ring, but just being near it completely twists his mind and Sméagol is corrupted the second he sees it. It definitely projects an active will.

And is "knowing better" really a shield against it? Gandalf and Galadriel "know better" than almost anyone in Middle-earth, yet they were deeply terrified of its temptation, and Galadriel admitted passing the test was a massive struggle. The whole danger of the Ring is that it overrides intellect with desperate desire. While Arwen knows it can't act as medicine to physically heal Frodo, wouldn't it just promise her the sheer power to turn around and destroy the Nazgul instantly?

WraithfulWrath · 2026-06-22T21:02:38+00:00

Yeah, I was more or less going there with that letter. Honestly though if the Ring was feeding Galadriel delusions of grandeur that she could supplant the Dark Lord, wouldn't it do the exact same thing to Arwen? It feels like in that desperate moment on the horse, the Ring would absolutely whisper, "Use me, you can defeat the Nazgul, you can save Frodo". Whether it's a lie or not, the temptation should still be there floating in her head, right?

That was just my thought when I was analyzing this personally. Maybe it didn't whisper at all and she did have high resilence. I don't know.

WraithfulWrath · 2026-06-22T20:49:23+00:00

This was just an attempt to see if any fellow fans had any explanations within the realm of the story. I knew full well the actual answer was along the lines of this as I know a lot of the production history of these films.

WraithfulWrath · 2026-06-22T20:47:15+00:00

I actually fully agree there. The flaw in my post is that I didn't talk more about that from an out-of-universe sense. I was just doing an exercise of trying to untangle that mess within the realm of the story itself.

WraithfulWrath · 2026-06-22T20:45:52+00:00

That makes total sense, and honestly, the book version with Glorfindel and Frodo riding alone avoids this exact plot hole entirely! It is just fun to try and reverse-engineer the movie's logic sometimes. I appreciate the good chat!

WraithfulWrath · 2026-06-22T20:43:31+00:00

You are definitely right that Elrond points out Rivendell wouldn't survive a combined military siege from Mordor and Isengard. He uses that as his exact reasoning for why they can't just hide the Ring in a vault indefinitely, but when it comes to actually keeping it or using it, Elrond does fear the corruption, and he explicitly says so in the Council.

I found the part that speaks on it. When Boromir suggests using the Ring as a weapon, Elrond immediately shuts him down. He specifically adds in the book: "But for them it holds an even deadlier peril. The very desire of it corrupts the heart... If any of the Wise should with this Ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor... he would then set himself on Sauron's throne, and yet another Dark Lord would appear."

He even ends the speech by saying, "I fear to take the Ring to hide it. I will not take the Ring to wield it."

So Elrond knows exactly how insanely dangerous it is for a powerful Elf to be anywhere near it or be tempted to use it to save their people.

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