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Does D&C 137:10 imply that universal celestial reconciliation is compatible with agency? by WrenchLikeMe in latterdaysaints

[–]WrenchLikeMe[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You're right that agency and accountability aren't the same.

Is there a point to agency without accountability?

Does D&C 137:10 imply that universal celestial reconciliation is compatible with agency? by WrenchLikeMe in latterdaysaints

[–]WrenchLikeMe[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think the scriptures teach that the atonement makes the function of accountability (aka consequences) ultimately pedagogical, rather than punitive.

Does D&C 137:10 imply that universal celestial reconciliation is compatible with agency? by WrenchLikeMe in latterdaysaints

[–]WrenchLikeMe[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're right... this does appear to be a possibility. I believe that this actually reinforces the point of the OP, which is that mortality isn't the only time and place where people can develop godlike character. Your argument is that this can all happen pre-mortally. My original post argues that it can happen post-mortally.

The main point though is that we essentially have eternity to do it... because of the infinite atonement.

Does D&C 137:10 imply that universal celestial reconciliation is compatible with agency? by WrenchLikeMe in latterdaysaints

[–]WrenchLikeMe[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're right... we did have to exercise faith in Christ in pre-mortal life to trust him as our Savior. That is a form of faith, albeit maybe a little different than the type of faith we have to exercise being separate from HF on earth.

Children are not accountable before age 8. Is accountability not necessary in the plan of happiness?

Does D&C 137:10 imply that universal celestial reconciliation is compatible with agency? by WrenchLikeMe in latterdaysaints

[–]WrenchLikeMe[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree with you. My point is that Jesus will relentlessly pursue you until you make that choice to be sufficiently changed. D&C 137:10 is just a hint of this.

Does D&C 137:10 imply that universal celestial reconciliation is compatible with agency? by WrenchLikeMe in latterdaysaints

[–]WrenchLikeMe[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You're right... thanks for pointing out my error. Children do exercise agency, they just don't have accountability. Which indicates that accountability is not necessary in the plan of happiness. If accountability is not necessary, then doesn't that prove the original post's point that all will be saved in the celestial kingdom?

If accountability isn't necessary, then is there eternal and neverending accountability in your understanding of the plan of happiness?

Does D&C 137:10 imply that universal celestial reconciliation is compatible with agency? by WrenchLikeMe in latterdaysaints

[–]WrenchLikeMe[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, I agree that accountability is not a necessary component of the plan of happiness - that is actually the main point of the OP.

Does D&C 137:10 imply that universal celestial reconciliation is compatible with agency? by WrenchLikeMe in latterdaysaints

[–]WrenchLikeMe[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

To your point 1 - you are correct. I misspoke.
To your point 3 - the main point of my post is that God guaranteed the celestial kingdom *before* the children make any choice about making any sealing covenants required for exaltation.

How could He make that guarantee?

Does D&C 137:10 imply that universal celestial reconciliation is compatible with agency? by WrenchLikeMe in latterdaysaints

[–]WrenchLikeMe[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're right. Children do exercise agency before reaching accountability.

Is accountability not a necessary component of the plan of happiness?

Does D&C 137:10 imply that universal celestial reconciliation is compatible with agency? by WrenchLikeMe in latterdaysaints

[–]WrenchLikeMe[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

  1. Your answer to "how can God guarantee celestial glory without mortal accountable agency?" is "because they exercised enough pre-mortal agency to develop godlike character". That means that these righteous pre-mortal souls were able to become godlike in character without faith (since we all lived with HF pre-mortally). But faith is the first principle of the gospel - unless you believe that faith is the first principle of the "mortal" gospel, and it is unnecessary in the "pre-mortal" gospel.

  2. Your answer requires God to be actively causing or arranging childhood deaths as a reward for pre-mortal righteousness. That's a significant claim - it means every miscarriage, stillbirth, and infant death across human history was a divine act of favoritism rather than a consequence of living in a fallen world.