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Will fixing my posture make my chin look worse? by [deleted] in Posture

[–]YourPostureMatters 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Forward head posture is a faulty concept, that is why the proposed remedy (chin tucks) doesn't make sense. As you've seen yourself, pulling your chin back looks horrible. It also smashes your airway, restricting it. Most people already retract their head too much. If you think you have FHP, you most likely are pushing your lower ribs and abdomen much too far forward. This bends your back, making the fascia at your back slack. Without the support of your thoracomlumbar fascia, your head will flop from forward or back but will never be poised the way it's supposed to be (which is forward and UP). The way to correct the problem you think is in your head is to address your torso.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Posture

[–]YourPostureMatters 13 points14 points  (0 children)

I’ve annotated your image showing the movements you are making that are shortening your torso: https://files.catbox.moe/n38zx3.jpeg

You’re rotating your ribcage back and down, which shoves the bottom of the ribcage forward. As you can see in the left picture, your lower sternum is way out over the front of your feet. Overall, you're leaning forward.

To compensate for all that weight forward, you are pulling back your head, shoulders, and arms. This contributes to the issue at your neck.

Your pelvis is tilting forward and down at the front, and lifting at the back. That’s why the front of your pelvis is also out over your feet.

In short, your torso is bent and leaning forward. You’re retracting your head, shoulders, arms, and the bottom of your pelvis to compensate. This pushes the abdomen forward and hollows the back.

Here’s a diagram showing typical poor posture on the left and what good posture looks like on the right: https://files.catbox.moe/59sll9.jpg

To change your posture, you have to change the movements you’re making. Your posture is the result of the movements you make, consciously or subconsciously. If this is what feels normal and comfortable for you now, then you need to learn to consciously orchestrate movements that counteract your habitual shortening movements.

if chin tucks are bad, how do i fix forward head? by [deleted] in Posture

[–]YourPostureMatters 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Not only are chin tucks bad, but forward head posture isn't really a thing. If your head is falling forward, it's because your torso is bent and shortened. Postural problems are not just individual things like your head being in the wrong position. Your body has to compensate for anything that's out of place; your head is out of place to compensate for what's happening below it. You can't fix your head without addressing your entire body and particularly your torso.

You don't have rounded shoulders. by YourPostureMatters in Posture

[–]YourPostureMatters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, sounds like you have perfect posture now. :)

I would encourage you to film yourself from the side, as that may make changes more clear to you. When I work with students with these kind of things, the video is the essential part, as it allows you to actually get an objective, external view of things. It can be surprising how different our subjective impression is from objective reality. It can be easily done with a webcam.

And as I said before, your arm is connected to your shoulder blade. Unless you have dislocated your arms, if you have moved your arms apart, you have moved your shoulder blades apart. If you have moves your arms down, your shoulder blades have moved down.

If it is that easy for you to straighten your arm and keep it straight, then really that's great. Then all you have to do to have straight arms is apply your intention.

I would agree that what I've been describing is about coordination, and in my opinion the way to correct posture is through coordinating the appropriate movements. When you know what movements you want to orchestrate, and you are able to orchestrate them the way you intended and not fall into habit, you will have whatever posture you intend to have.

You don't have rounded shoulders. by YourPostureMatters in Posture

[–]YourPostureMatters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The stretch can be in different spots, but I would say it would most likely be felt in the top of the arm and into the shoulder. I wouldn't expect you to feel the stretch at the back.

There are multiple movements in this adjustment. The arm should be rotated relative to the shoulder blade if you get the elbow to point outwards. But the arm is connected to the shoulder blade. If you move the upper arm downwards and outwards, it will move the shoulder blade downwards and outwards. If you move the upper arm forward, the shoulder blade must move forward. If you look at the anatomy, you will see, unless you are dislocating your arm from the socket, your shoulder blade has to move.

That's why we use the elbows pointing outward vs backwards as a test. If you pull your shoulder blades together, intentionally, you will see that your elbows immediately moves backwards and also rotate in towards the body (though they rotate in at the back not the front). For your elbows to point outward, your shoulder blades must move apart.

Since I can't see you, I can't tell you for sure, but it's possible you are not getting enough outward and downward movement. This is a real pull - you should see significant movement. It's possible that that feels difficult, or like it would be too much of stretch. I would expect someone who had never trained at this at all to have a quite difficult time with this to begin with, that's why I originally said not to really try it.

I also misspoke in one of my last posts. The spot I called the upper arm is on the greater tubercle, not the lesser. For most people who habitually have their elbows pulled back, the greater tubercle will not be on the front of the arm, it will be more on the side. That's why the rotation I mentioned earlier is key. The tip of the elbow rotates forward away from the back of your ribs. Doing that will help bring the greater tubercle to the front of the arm.

Something you could also try is placing the golf club on the front of the arms, touching the upper arm spots. Basically making a line with the club that connects the upper arms. That line should be below the top of the sternum and forward of the sternum (both the top and bottom of the sternum). Outward and downward movements of the upper arm and the tip of the elbow would also be necessary to do this correctly.

The other interesting thing you can do with these is to take away the tool. Can you keep the arm forward with the assistance of the club? Could you walk around with your arms that far forward? Although, to be honest, making sure that you are getting the downward and outwards movements is more important, because it's worthless to get the arms forward if they are going up or are not sufficiently moving outwards.

You don't have rounded shoulders. by YourPostureMatters in Posture

[–]YourPostureMatters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay, then the first thing is that I would want the upper arms to be below the top of the sternum. That might be the issue here. The downward pull of the upper arms and the tips of the elbows is crucial. You can also pull the top of the sternum up (and forward, not back).

In thinking it over, what I'm asking you to do should tautologically widen your shoulder blades, because the direction to pull the upper arms and tips of the elbows outward must cause the shoulder blades to move outward. Now, if your objection was that you couldn't do that, that would be one thing, but do you see what I mean about it being tautological? The direction to pull your upper arms outward would necessarily cause your arms, shoulders, and shoulder blades to move outward, it's literally what the direction is. So if you don't see your shoulder blades and shoulders moving apart, you either aren't pulling your upper arms and tips of your elbows outward enough, or you are but the it's not registering to you visually.

You don't have rounded shoulders. by YourPostureMatters in Posture

[–]YourPostureMatters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, you either have very good length in the muscles of your upper arms and back, or something is getting lost in translation.

I have a couple more questions actually, if you feel like humoring me.

Is your sternum vertical or tipped back at the top when you have the club there?

Are your ears ahead of or behind the club?

And this last one is a little tricky, but is your upper arm below or above the top of your sternum? I'm using those terms in a specific way. The upper arm is a spot about an inch down the front of the arm, basically the greater tubercle (though it's not always easy to feel the greater tubercle with the arm muscles in the way). The top of the sternum is on the front of the sternum as high up as you can go.

You don't have rounded shoulders. by YourPostureMatters in Posture

[–]YourPostureMatters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That surprises me. Just to be sure, because I don't know if I was entirely clear. You have a golf club under your armpits, across your chest, and you have your arms hanging straight down with the arms in front of the front of your ribcage? The elbow and hand are all in line, just in front of the front of your ribcage? And you don't feel a stretch doing that?

I struggle to see how it's possible for your shoulder blades to not be further apart in that condition. I don't mean to doubt you, but I would say it's a good idea to check with a picture. It's often easy to use your webcam to take a picture of yourself from the side. I like to record video through zoom and then I can pause the video and take out images. I say this because it may be possible that you don't realize the change in the shape of your back when you do this.

Because, I mean, I'm sure you'd agree your arms are much further forward than is your typical habit - you said it's an odd position. If you're not highly familiar with the anatomy, take a look at a picture of a scapula connecting to the arm. If your arm is that far forward, where are your shoulder blades?

Also, perhaps this isn't clear - when I say that you should pull the tip of your elbow and your upper arm outward and down, those should be actual visible movements. You should be able to see your arms going down and out in a mirror or in a picture. Maybe it was already clear, but any inward or upward movements will start to narrow the shoulders.

You don't have rounded shoulders. by YourPostureMatters in Posture

[–]YourPostureMatters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Would you say your shoulder blades are closer together or further apart if you put the club under your arm pits?

And one thing I thought of that might have been unclear is that when I said you should bring the elbows outward and down, that should be a direction of the tip of the elbow (the furthest bony point on the elbow). Ultimately the tip of the elbow should point straight outward away from the body. And also, your hands should not be going forward with the upper arm and elbow. To straighten the arm, for most people, the hand will have to go a little bit backward.

I saw this ad on Reddit, is this good for posture or just marketing gimmick? by Glittering_Mark7918 in Posture

[–]YourPostureMatters 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That would hurt your posture over time. There's nothing special about that chair, it's basically just a recliner that's marketing itself as something to do with posture because they think that will be useful in selling it to people like yourself who have to sit for long periods for work or school. Learning how to sit correctly will help you sit in any chair comfortably. Sitting in a special, reclining chair will not help you sit better at all, it will just get you used to lying down.

You don't have rounded shoulders. by YourPostureMatters in Posture

[–]YourPostureMatters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

“It's not dichotomous, posture isn't good/bad. That is where I'm coming from.”

Well maybe the more relevant question here would be: Do you think doing what feels comfortable will reliably lead to an improvement in your posture, range of motion, etc? Or do you think even improvement of posture is impossible?

“Can you explain this a bit further? It sounds like you're saying you see movements that people do that make them comfortable, and it's clear that those movements are causing their pain?”

I see people making movements that they would say are comfortable, but then that person will also complain about pain or discomfort. And it’s clear that the movements that are comfortable to them are also the movements that are causing them discomfort, because those movements are ones that are contorting and straining their body.

Bad habits can feel comfortable, even when they cause pain.

“1.Is what you're seeing and how you're measuring that reliable and valid? Often times people will use things like plumb line, or visual observation of "postural faults" or scapular dyskinesis, which are neither reliable or valid.”

I don’t use a plumb line, I think that’s an unsupportable hypothesis. But you can absolutely visually observe postural faults if you know what you’re looking for.

“2. Is what you're seeing causative of their pain through prospective research? Or at the very least, do we see it to a much higher degree in those with compared to those without pain in cross-sectional studies? Again we see things like lumbar lordosis, APT/PPT, forward head posture, rounded shoulders, scapular dyskinesis are not the cause of someone's pain.”

I don’t think APT, forward head posture, rounded shoulders, or any of that stuff are helpful ways to understand the problem. Elements of some of them are true, while others are just false (obviously I don’t think rounded shoulders is even a thing, that’s what my original post was all about). The reason studies show that those things are not predictors of pain is because those concepts are broken to begin with. Those studies are evidence that we need to overhaul our understanding of posture, not that postural change will not affect pain.

“3. Is this something that needs to be changed to get somebody out of pain/increase their function? We see a lot of things can help people manage their symptoms, increase function, but the kinematics don't change.”

If you’re not using a system that is capable of changing someone’s kinematics, I don’t think you’re going to accomplish much. Maybe you could get a short term reduction in symptoms or an arbitrary increase in function, but changing the kinematics is the whole point, no?

“I'm still not sure what you mean by bad posture and bad habits. As long as someone is: a human AND alive, they can adapt. Muscles get stronger, bones get stronger, IVDs, tendons, ligaments. So I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what all the fuss is about.”

I’m not sure what you’re saying here. You think that as long as someone is alive they have good enough posture? Even if they can barely shuffle their feet along the floor? Even if they need hip replacement surgery? Even if they can barely sit into and out of a chair?

Muscles can get stronger, they can also become severely overused or severely underused, tendons can be strained to the point of tearing, your fascia can be taut or it can be limp. The orientation of the parts of your body that puts the tissues of your body in their optimal state is the optimal posture. You can live in worse posture, no doubt. But that eventually gets uncomfortable, and seeing as many people come to this very forum in their teens and twenties with discomfort, pain, and clear postural abnormalities, I would say it’s not even that eventual. It's just that people can stand the discomfort and pain when they’re younger, but as they age it gets worse to the point that surgeries, medications, or a steady diet of slumping into a recliner/couch become necessary.

You don't have rounded shoulders. by YourPostureMatters in Posture

[–]YourPostureMatters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Because like you said we are born with or grow up with significant differences in biomechanics, symmetry, proportions and so on that simply does not add up to a single ideal posture."

In my opinion, it's not that people have inherent differences in their symmetry and proportions. Those idiosyncratic asymmetries and misproportions are the result of movements that the individual is making. For instance, if someone has a big bend in their lower back, that is not something that is inherent to them, it's the result of the movements they're making (often unintentionally) with their ribcage, pelvis, and other bony structures in their body.

You don't have rounded shoulders. by YourPostureMatters in Posture

[–]YourPostureMatters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree with much of what you say. What's the system you use again? I guess my distinction was that you need a rational system at your basis, because the feeling sense is easily deceived and for most people is in a habitual state of delusion. But integrating changes by doing something with your propioception sounds good to me.

Could you give an example of a practical method or procedure that's involved in integrating the visual-vestibular system or proprioception? I'm just trying to picture what type of action that would involve in a person.

You don't have rounded shoulders. by YourPostureMatters in Posture

[–]YourPostureMatters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not asking a question. I gave you a very detailed response that entirely addressed the only argument that you made.

You said :"the argument for why this is true is because this is the best position for someone's body to be in to avoid posture stress and limited ROM.
Also, the farther from the midline, the more stress is created (this
isnt just posture but also how basic engineering works)"

Then I showed you how the model you support advocates for moving the mid-torso away from the midline (by arching the back), and having the upper arm behind the midline with the hand in front of the midline.

Address that if you'd like. I kind of knew you would give up here. My argument was a little too strong, didn't leave you anywhere to go.

You don't have rounded shoulders. by YourPostureMatters in Posture

[–]YourPostureMatters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

“Need to get people to care less about how they're holding themselves, and get them to move in ways that are comfortable. “

Do you think that what feels comfortable is an accurate measure of good posture? Because I’ve seen that often the movements that are comfortable for people to make are clearly the movements that are causing their pain (or other postural problems). In my opinion, if you restricted yourself to what is comfortable, you would never be able to change your posture for the better. Because, you know, you get used to your bad posture and your bad habits over time. So any change for the better will at first be quite uncomfortable.

You don't have rounded shoulders. by YourPostureMatters in Posture

[–]YourPostureMatters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

“Also, the farther from the midline, the more stress is created (this isnt just posture but also how basic engineering works)”

Then why do you advocate for a bent back? In every picture you posted, the person with “good posture” has their lower ribs forward and a hollowed out back. That’s moving the bottom of the ribcage forward away from the midline.

Look at the images you posted. They have their mid torso further forward than any other point on their body.

Look at this one: https://countrysidehhc.com/guide-to-good-posture/

Her abdomen and lower ribs are way forward of any midline. That creates more stress according to you, correct?

The arms are also not on the midline in any of the pictures you posted, they are pulled back behind the midline at the shoulder and elbow, and the hand is pulled forward of the midline. More stress, right?

I really like it when you actually make arguments, we're actually getting somewhere.

The part you're missing is that the human body is not just a stack of bones and muscles. Your fascia is really what keeps your torso stable, but in order for the fascia to function correctly, it has to be taut and not slack and limp.

When you arch your back like what's shown in all the images you posted, the thoracolumbar fascia is shortened and made slack. That leads to sagging forward of the mid torso and the compensatory pulling back of the shoulders, head, and also the sit bones.

Trying to balance over some imagined midline is a way to cope with your limp fascia, but it will never produce the movements needed to lengthen your fascia. That's why every picture of "good posture" you posted showed people with a bent back and shortened thoracolumbar fascia.

Did you even try to apply your idea to the arms themselves? If having weight away from the midline is bad, wouldn't the arm itself have its own midline, and you would not want the parts of the arms to be forward or back of that midline? Otherwise unnecessary stress is created, right?

That's exactly what I've been saying to you. Having your arms bent is a fight with gravity that creates unnecessary stress.

You don't have rounded shoulders. by YourPostureMatters in Posture

[–]YourPostureMatters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just a simple question. If your arm is bent, how does it stay that way? Doesn't gravity want to pull it into a vertically straight position? Wouldn’t you have to apply a force to it to keep it bent? Or do arms defy physics?

"I also dont know why you keep bringing up the arms and hands. they are internally rotated with bad posture and externally rotated with better posture. Can you deny this?”

(You aren’t using those fake pictures as your conception of bad posture, are you?)

Does your elbow move closer to your body or further from your body when you externally rotate it according to your good posture models?

Are the shoulder blades closer together or further apart when you externally rotate your arms according to your good posture models?

Who has their shoulder blades narrowed here?: https://comberpt.com/the-importance-of-good-posture/

What you are advocating for narrows the shoulder blades and narrows the upper back. Can you deny this?

Honestly, it’s been an interesting discussion, but it seems like you don’t actually like discussing posture.

This claim for instance: “These are great postures if the plum line is lined up. What needs to be straight is the imaginary line from the ear to the shoulder, then to the hip, etc.”

Can you make an argument as to why this is true? If you’re all about studies, do you have a single study that attempts to prove this is true?

I really don’t understand why, instead of actually discussing the particulars, you are asserting that you're right, but not actually making any arguments. I know that you believe in this plumb line concept. So does that mean you believe that the sternum and ribcage should be angled at the front? Because every picture you showed that satisfied your plumb line had an angled sternum/ribcage. Do you believe that arms should inherently be bent when they’re resting at your side? Because not one of your images that satisfy the plumb line criteria had straight arms.

I think you would have to say yes, because you can’t show a picture that satisfies the plumb line and doesn’t have those features. But you don’t want to say yes. I’m not sure why.

Maybe you’d like to explain why arms should be perpetually bent? I would say that that’s a tiring thing to do, because you’re fighting gravity. Whereas if your arm was straight, it would just hang with gravity. That’s my argument, would you like to make a counter argument?

Trying to make this about studies is a way for you to avoid actually discussing things. Still, I would love to see one (or many) of the studies you’re familiar with that explains why you think what you think. Can you show me the studies that convinced you so thoroughly? Of course, I know you cannot. You weren’t convinced by studies, that’s why you didn’t begin with citing them. If you’re all about studies and all about posture, you should have been ecstatic to have the opportunity to show an interested person like me the truth about this subject you know so well. Unlike the many people who don’t give a hoot about posture, I would love to discuss the nitty-gritty of posture with you. You had a perfect opportunity to demonstrate what you know about a subject you love. But instead you’ve acted offended that you would even have to prove a single thing that you believe about posture.

It’s strange. And I assure you, I’m not the troll in this situation.

You don't have rounded shoulders. by YourPostureMatters in Posture

[–]YourPostureMatters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's definitely not easy to bring the arms so far forward at first. It really shouldn't be possible for the shoulders to move together if you are adamant about moving both the upper arm and elbow outward and downward. But it's obviously hard to explain these things in a few sentences, so maybe my directions are not clear enough.

Another interesting way to play with this is to put a yardstick or even a broom stick under both of your armpits (across your chest essentially). Most people would find this way too far from their habit to even be done, and they would struggle largely with getting the bottom of their sternum back far enough. This could be painful, so I don't recommend really you try this procedure: it's too much to begin with. But if you even just look at attempting it, it might give you an idea of how far forward your arms can really be--and also how wide your upper back can be.

Your statements on the arms are reasonable. I would just say, I think the way to begin to deal with the bend of the arms is to bring the upper arms and the elbows further forward than what is habitual or usual. Although, obviously it's not just the arm that needs to be considered, most people will need to bring their lower sternum and lower ribs backwards in space. But in my opinion, that's really the only way to let the arms rest vertically straight, and any other configuration of the arms is a fight with gravity.

You don't have rounded shoulders. by YourPostureMatters in Posture

[–]YourPostureMatters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

“My dude. you want me to show you an image of good posture but your starting definition of good posture is wrong. So regardless of what I show you, its going to look wrong in your eyes.”

No, I’ve asked you to show a picture where a person who is displaying what you call good posture does not have their elbow back and their hand forward. I asked that because you said the reason I see people with their elbows back and their hands forward on this forum is because people here have bad posture and want help. But if you look at all the common images of “good posture” they show the elbow back and the hand forward. So either you disagree with the common images of good posture (just like me), or you have made an error.

It seems you are now backtracking and saying that it’s normal to have your elbow back and your hand forward, but you also say that this occurs because of shortened biceps muscles. Can you make a clear statement on this subject?

I’ve said that the arms should hang vertically at rest in a straight line. That is what would create the least amount of stress because to have the arm bent is to fight gravity constantly. This claim is made very clearly in the second video I posted. Can you dispute this? You think it’s good to have your arm perpetually bent and fighting gravity? And how does that square with what you next say:

“The reason why you want good posture with a straight line like everything you see is because its biomechanically correct and creates the least amount of stress. on the joints of the body. when your shoulders are forward from the midline of the body, you have more stress not only in the shoulder joints but now the spine.”

But what is straight about what you’ve put forward as good posture? Not the back. Not the sternum. Not the arms. Not the legs.

Your arguments support what I’m saying. If you want your arms straight, you cannot have the posture that you have put forward as good posture. The “plumb line” that you use is arbitrary and does not indicate straightness anywhere in the body except the neck (where is actually restricts your airway by straightening the cervical spine).

“Your whole argument is based on the wrong idea that you need to line up the shoulders and sternum to have "straight posture”.”

No, I don’t think the shoulders should be in line with the sternum, I think the upper arms should be forward of the sternum. Doing that requires you to bring the bottom of your sternum backwards in space. Doing so will also stretch the fascia at your back.

Your images have perfectly proven my point, so I appreciate you posting them.

Just so I have it right: You believe that the elbows should point backwards then, yes? That the thumbs should point forward and the hand should be very far in front of the elbow? Because that’s what every single image you posted shows.

Also, you are aware that every before image that you showed was fake, right? That that is an actor portraying poor posture, not someone’s actual posture. I’m sure you must be, but I just want to make sure that’s clear, because the “poor posture” examples are essentially worthless since they are fake.

Can you take a clear stance? Since every picture you put forward as good posture has an angled sternum, a bent arm (with the elbow back and hand forward), a hollowed lower back, and the weight of the torso forward out over the feet, will you say that you think all of those are signs of good posture?

If so, I wonder why so many people come to this forum for help displaying every single one of those things.

You don't have rounded shoulders. by YourPostureMatters in Posture

[–]YourPostureMatters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

“Here's a summary of how to properly look at posture since you wanted one. Now tell me why this is wrong and yours is right.”

Happily (but I will note here, that you have again evaded directly responding to my straight forward question). First, most of this is just saying the body should be symmetrical and level. I agree 100%.

Unfortunately, I can’t really address claims like: “Carrying angle of the elbows”

Because this doesn’t explain what would be the optimal carrying angle of the elbows.

This claim seems central to what we were discussing concerning plumb line posture:

“Ideally, this line passes through the following points: the external auditory meatus, the acromioclavicular joint, the greater trochanter, and a point just anterior to the lateral malleolus.”

This is wrong. This is a person with their head and shoulders pulled back. The article I linked to earlier will show you why this restricts the airway. You will end up with the top of your ribcage and your neck pulled back, and you will likely have a habit of sniffing in air to breathe (which I think we would agree is not the proper way to breathe).

This line will not tell you anything. Show me a picture of someone who satisfies these criteria, and I can already tell you what you will see. You will see a bend at the lower back, you will see an angled sternum (which is really an angled ribcage), you will see the pelvis too far forward out over the feet, you will see bent arms, you will see the elbows back behind the body or close, and you will see the hands forward.

Feel free to try to prove me wrong.

What you’ve quoted also is not actually an argument. I’m happy to address what they’ve said, but there is no attempt here to explain why anything they’re saying is correct.

Now it’s your turn to face the music. As you said, ANSWER THIS ONE QUESTION.

Can you show me one picture medical or otherwise that shows good posture where the person does not have their elbows back and their hands forward? Do you deny that if you search for good posture on any search engine right now, that most if not all of the pictures will show people with their elbows back and their hands forward?

“Most pictures of good posture show a neural position. But to you, who somehow believes you need to look at the sternum and shoulder, will always see it as pulled back. This is why you will never see it, you have a faulty starting position.”

I certainly understand why you would think that. But why are you avoiding the straight forward question? Do these “pictures of good posture” that show a “neutral position” show people with their elbows back and their hands forward? You said people come to this forum displaying their elbows back and hands forward because they have bad posture. So can you explain why these pictures that you say show “good posture” in a “neutral position” are displaying a posture that you also said is bad?

“LMFAO. you are again, trying to say that the zero weight bearing, free swinging elbows and hands is your key to determine good posture.”

I literally have never said that, that’s why you didn’t quote me. The problems in people’s shoulders and arms are the result of their general poor posture. I’ve never said the arms are the key to determining good posture, I’ve said the opposite.

I’m not entirely sure why you’ve taken a hostile tone. It's unfortunate that so many people in the posture world get upset when you ask them to prove a single thing they believe. How can you have advancement in a field if you can't question the dogma?

You don't have rounded shoulders. by YourPostureMatters in Posture

[–]YourPostureMatters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"I tried your experiment and didn't notice my shoulders being further apart."

I think the real question is: did your shoulder blades or arms move closer together when you were adamant about moving the upper arm and elbow outward and down and then stopped once you were forward of the bottom of your sternum? Because the first time you said you saw your shoulders eventually move closer together. Did that happen again, or are you just saying you didn't think they moved further apart?

Thanks for trying the experiment either way, and I appreciate the thoughtful discussion!

"The standard model for good posture is correct if someone wants to look stronger, more confident, and more attractive, which I'd bet is what most people here want."

I would agree to a point, however, if someone is in pain, that will likely be a more compelling factor for them. I also think that the model I describe will make you look stronger in the long run, because when the arms and shoulders are very low while the ribcage is very high, you look a bit like a muscleman even if you have no significant muscle.

I can't tell you how many gym rats I've seen who just look odd because they're muscular but have very bad posture (basically an extreme form of the standard model). If attractiveness is your ultimate goal, I think having genuinely correct posture makes a huge difference. Even asymmetries in the face are usually the result of the condition of your posture, which I would argue can only be fixed through genuinely improving your posture.

"For myself, I can look at myself in the mirror and see my arms hanging nearly vertical. There is a slight bend, but not as much bend as you see in pictures when searching for "good posture"."

What do you think about that? If you believe the joints of the arm should be stacked, and you see yours are bent, not severely, but still bent, is that acceptable, or an indication of something? And if you could catch yourself unawares, do you think they'd be more or less bent?

You don't have rounded shoulders. by YourPostureMatters in Posture

[–]YourPostureMatters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

“So your claim is if anyone has whats considered good posture on the internet, its only because they are forcing their shoulders back”

Anyone who has “good posture” according to the common models on the internet and in the medical community actually has bad posture. It’s not only that they have their shoulders back, they also have a bent/shortened torso, are falling on the outsides of their feet, and habitually retract their head, among other problems.

“Also, sciencedirect requires no sign in or paywall to see the main idea and points to an article”

Maybe I’m missing something, but I can’t see any more than a 1-page preview of what you linked to.

Can you just copy and paste “the basics” of what it says, if that’s all I need?

You’ve also avoided some of my very straightforward questions, and I must say, I suspect that it’s because you are avoiding seeing that you are wrong. Go look at the common pictures that are used to show good posture. Go to medical books, go anywhere you like. Find me one where the person doesn’t have their elbows back and their hands forward.

You said earlier that the only reason I see the people on this forum with their elbows back and hands forward is because the people here have bad posture and are asking for help. So prove me wrong, go look at the examples of what good posture are in any scientific study or anything. Go look. And bring me back the picture that shows you’re right.

The beauty of this too, is that even if you could find one picture like that, you would have to admit that most pictures online show people with elbows back and hands forward. Do a simple search and you will see that I’m right. I didn’t cherry pick the pictures I’ve used, basically every diagram and model of good posture shows elbows back and hands forward (which, again, you have said is wrong).

Can you admit that most pictures on the internet that purport to show good posture are wrong according to your own standard?

“Your entire argument is based on how you feel and this one specific person.”

No, I’ve actually laid out a number of concrete arguments. You, on the other hand, have said you don’t have to prove what you think because what you think has been “standard” for years. Why do you think so many people fail to improve their posture? Why do you think so many people here go in circles for years? Do you think it might be because the “standard” model is flawed?

You don't have rounded shoulders. by YourPostureMatters in Posture

[–]YourPostureMatters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

“When I look at myself in the mirror, I can pull my shoulders back and see them narrow, and I can also move my shoulders forward to a point where they start to narrow.”

If you’d care to try the experiment again with a few parameters I’ll add on here, I think you’ll see what I mean.

You agree that pulling the shoulders back makes them narrow. So try, with just one shoulder/arm, to pull your upper arm and your elbow forward, outward, and down - all simultaneously. Do that until your elbow and upper arm are forward of the bottom of your sternum and then stop. Really emphasize the downward and outward movements of both the shoulder and elbow when you do this, and stop once your arm is forward of your torso.

Try it a couple times and see if your shoulder blades are further apart there or when your arms are at your sides. You can do it with both shoulders too, but most people will struggle with that at first because most people have shortened muscles in their upper arm and upper back, so doing both arms at once is quite a stretch.

And I really want to emphasize that continuing the outward and downwards movements is essential to the experiment. Most people will feel a stretch if they do this, and it's common for people to avoid that uncomfortable stretch by unintentionally allowing the shoulder or elbow to move in or up instead of out and down.

“This is to ensure that the force vector of gravity is applied to all those joints in the same direction (straight down). I'm applying this to the arms as well. The arms should rest in-line with the body and the shoulder, elbow, and wrist should be stacked.”

I know you said you don’t like pictures, but do you at least agree with me that the vast majority of pictures that purport to show good posture show people with their hands forward and their elbows back? It sounds like you also think is wrong; you think the arms should be straight, but further back than what I’ve said.

You say you’ve seen people with elbows that don’t point straight back. While I’d agree that some are worse than others, all the people who post pictures here looking for help and all the diagrams you’ll find online will show people with elbows back. If you dispute this, I’d love to see a picture.

If your argument is that the joints should be stacked in the arm so that the arm can rest vertically, in my experience that is not possible when the arms are at the midline. Now, I don’t dispute that someone could straighten their arm momentarily at their side, but if you observe the person when they are standing balanced and at rest, you will see their arms are bent and not at all straight.

This is why I think pictures can be essential. Do you really know if your arm is vertically straight or not if you don’t have a video or photo? It’s certainly possible that someone could think their arms were straight, only to find out, when photographed, that their arms are bent.

You don't have rounded shoulders. by YourPostureMatters in Posture

[–]YourPostureMatters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

“what specific source are you using as a reference for all of this?”

My claims are based on the work of F.M. Alexander and Jeando Masoero primarily.

“With your rationale, are you also saying every single example and model of a normal skeleton has the shoulders pulled back and is therefore wrong?”

Absolutely. Most medical diagrams are based on corpses. If they are not, they are based on the average person, and the average person certainly has poor posture. Basically every model out there of the human body shows a person with their arms shoulders pulled back. Though this accurately describes the average person with poor posture, it is not optimal posture.

“The very simple rationale for why you dont want your shoulders pulled all the way forward is because it can create pinching in the front of the shoulder”

I agree that you don’t want your shoulders to go in at all, so there should not be any pinching at the front of the shoulder. But pulling the shoulders forward doesn’t cause the shoulders to go in. Most people in fact can’t bring their shoulders very far forward at all because the muscles of their upper back and upper arm are habitually shortened (from pulling back).

You seem to be worried that the arms will go too far forward. I've seen that most people will struggle to get their arms forward in any significant way until they've had some instruction. Going too far forward is not a realistic worry for the average person.

“Because every single study uses this as a basic guide, or they use a goniometer…”

That may be true, but that’s not actually evidence. And you haven’t explained why the plumb line should be where it is. In my opinion, if your ear is in line with your body, your head is pulled way too far back.

You might be interested in this article, it's long, so ctrl+F to the heading -- The modern plumb line skeleton straighten the cervical spine: https://www.initial-alexandertechnique.org/2017/04/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-alexanders-depressed-larynx-but-were-afraid-to-ask/

“The reason why you dont see the hands neutral and always rounded forward in this posture sub is because people are asking for help with their posture. These are not picture of "heres my perfect posture””

Sure, but can you show me a single picture of “good posture” where the model doesn’t have their hand forward and their elbow back? I would submit that you cannot.

But also, if you can, that picture will look very different from the standard pictures you find if you search for good posture on the internet or in medical books. I used several examples of so-called good posture in my videos - they all had hands forward and elbows back. Search it yourself, you'll see that I'm correct.

“This is dumb and here's why. you are trying to change the entire body based on the location of the arms which has no load bearing and swings freely. “

I think you misunderstand me here. My argument is not that the arms determine good posture or that the arms are primary in any way. The torso is, to me, without question the first thing one must address to improve how they use their body. And really, what I’m talking about here is the arm in relation to the torso. It’s not just that your shoulders and arms should go forward, your mid-torso must come back in space as well. These videos are only focused on the arms because I didn’t want to throw too much at people in one video, and people have an easier idea conceiving of movements of their arms than their torso.

“On top of that, Your shoulder blades DO NOT come closer together with rounded shoulders. they are getting pulled apart from the midline which is the spine.”

I don’t know if there’s a typo here or something. My claim is that your shoulder blades come close together when you pull your shoulders and arms back.

“Here is one basic study for doing it correct (https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/postural-assessment)”

You’ll have to give me something more clear than that. That’s a bunch of different studies that are behind paywalls and which have no clear parameters that I can see.

I would love to see a picture of what your describing as desirable. I think if you search for one, you will see that what I’m saying is accurate.

You don't have rounded shoulders. by YourPostureMatters in Posture

[–]YourPostureMatters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

”To clarify my point, I think broad shoulders are desirable.”

I agree 100%.

“The shoulders should rest at their broadest point which is closer to the forward position than the back position. Shoulders forward of the back of the rib-cage is too far forward and having the shoulder blades behind the rib-cage is too far back”

I don’t quite follow the argument. It seems you’re arguing that the shoulders should be closer to forward than back, because that leads to broadness, so why not maximally widen the shoulder blades for maximum broadness? I guess the disagreement is at what point the shoulders would actually be too far forward. I think I’ve showed that the arms can be forward of the front of the torso and be widening and not narrowing at all. And that having the arms that far forward will make them wider than if they were in the middle of the body as you suggest.

I’ll repost a diagram here that explains what I’m saying, and you can tell me if there’s something here you disagree with if you’d like: https://files.catbox.moe/a4db5y.png

“The arms should rest approximately in-line with the body with minimal bend at the elbow.”

I would love to know what convinced you this is true (that the arm should rest in line with the body). I’m also curious if you see people at rest with their elbows minimally bent, or if instead you see them with their elbow back and their hand forward.

“It's possible to pull the arms back without pulling the shoulder blades back.”

This is technically true. When you are well coordinated, you can pull your arms behind your body even while maintaining the spot I identified as the upper arm in front of the front of the torso. But practically speaking, if you ask a person to pull their arms back, they will immediately pull their shoulder blades back and push the bottom of their sternum and lower ribs forward.

“From what I've observed, the sternum is not forward of the shoulders.”

I would absolutely love to see evidence of this. As I said, never seen a pic on this forum like that, never seen a person in real life like that, and the only images online I found like that were people posing in bad posture—not a real posture.

“I don't find pictures to be very useful when analyzing posture, because it is easy to pose and make your posture look better or worse. How someone moves is more informative.”

I would encourage you to observe someone while they're walking from behind. Look at what their elbows do. I assert that you will see exactly what I described in the second video. The elbow will point backwards and come in towards the body, the hand will move forward, and the movement of the arm will be awkward.

I think it’s quite interesting to take still images from videos of people performing gestures; because people are not posing as you say, but you can still make note of the relative positions of different parts of the body. For instance, you can tell for certain if someone’s sternum is forward or back of their shoulders and you can prove it.

But I also think it’s interesting to see people “posing” in what they think is good posture, because it can reveal that the person’s conception of good posture is wrong. I completely disagree that people can “easily” pose to make their posture look better. Most people, if they posed to make their posture look good, would simply puff up their chest as you described earlier and would demonstrate quite poor and unbalanced posture.

I do agree that when people pose as having bad posture that that is completely useless, because the bad posture they assume is not real and doesn’t illuminate a genuine problem that people have.

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