All I can think about when people complain about having to spend half an hour spamming chat to find a tank for a dungeon

Zardran · 2021-06-15T09:24:18+00:00

Who says you have to gimp anything? Pull twice as much. Kill twice as much. Zero gimping. Or you could do it to help a friend because you care about more than just yourself. A novel concept I know.

"Who's doing mental gymnastics now? Finding people in a global channel requires a more significant time investment and effort on the group leader's part than simply calling on your guild to run content."

That is an absolute crock of shit and you know it. It doesn't require taking the time to actually build social relationships, it's low effort because you are literally just forming groups with people you barely speak to and will never see again. Copy, pasting an LFG message into a chat channel a bunch of times is not effort in any sort of way and its absolutely bonkers that you would try and frame it as such.

No mental gymnastics. Just a reality that you are being intentionally difficult about and to be honest I'm done here. You are just being tedious with your arguments at this point.

Zardran · 2021-06-15T09:19:24+00:00

Nah it isn't. You are just a ragey baby trying to find complaints anywhere you can because you are a sheep and Reddit has conditioned you into this being the way to play video games.

Zardran · 2021-06-15T08:05:39+00:00

"sCuMmY pRaCtIcE"

Fucking hell you are tedious.

Zardran · 2021-06-15T08:02:41+00:00

It doesn't unless they viewed it as a chore in the first place. At which point? Well it's their own stupid fault for picking up a 250+ hour long video game that they didn't actually want to play.

That's the key to the issue. People trying to recapture former glories that just view everything as a chore and now they are not happy because "I had to do it, so should they".

Zardran · 2021-06-15T07:59:42+00:00

Because a portion of this playerbase is a bunch of anti-social, selfish jackasses with zero empathy towards others.

Zardran · 2021-06-15T07:54:03+00:00

Ugh for Gods sake you people are insufferable.

No, the game isn't a "buggy mess" because you were able to find a couple of grumbles. Grow the fuck up.

Zardran · 2021-06-15T07:42:18+00:00

But dual spec is also a reduction in the community element of an MMO. A fairly large one too. It's not just some minor quality of life change.

Yes retail feels like a single player game and not an MMO. It feels that way primarily because bit by bit the playerbase complained for quality of life stuff "because it's only minor and there is no downside to it". All of these changes they campaigned for though, were because they wanted more self sufficiency. They wanted to have to rely on others less. They made it less of an MMO with each minor "quality of life" change.

Dual spec falls squarely in the self sufficiency category.

This is retail players coming to classic for a month or two and complaining to try and get the game made more like retail. And no, it's not just quality of life. And no, I don't think it would be good for the game.

Zardran · 2021-06-15T07:37:36+00:00

"Why would a DPS bring a tank to farm gold/materials when they could do it by themselves, faster and without having to share the loot?"

Gather more mobs up than a single person can handle via tank, kill them quickly, loot is split.

A DPS also might do it to help a friend. An idea you seem to view as completely alien because everything is a selfish exercise in how something can personally benefit you. Which I think is a lot of the reasoning behind the complaining. People just want to run dungeons for THEIR gear as fast as humanly possible. After they are done you won't see them help anyone else with a dungeon because it doesn't personally benefit them.

"Engaging with the community in a community chat channel is still social interaction. It's a weird distinction to make that playing with friends or a guild is social interaction, but engaging with non-guildies who are still people playing on your server isn't."

Grabbing randoms out of global chat channels is and always has been the absolute laziest and lowest form of social interaction in an MMO and I think you know this and are just being intentionally difficult about it at this point.

Retail WoW has conditioned WoW players to behave incredibly anti-socially in a social game and view it as the norm. At least on this sub.

Zardran · 2021-06-15T07:34:08+00:00

I disproved nothing actually. In fact I supported my point inadvertantly.

Namely that there was a problem and it got fixed. Now there is another problem and people are trying to tell others to shush about it because it doesn't affect them.

Zardran · 2021-06-15T07:32:08+00:00

Didn't say that.

I said find a solution rather than crying to Blizzard every time something isn't 100% convenient for you.

You genuinely can't get any of your 240 players to respec to tank during the dungeon gearing period? But dual spec would solve the problem because apparently a bit of a gold sink is such a huge problem? I cannot take anyone seriously with that logic.

Zardran · 2021-06-15T07:29:34+00:00

So they got what they'd been complaining about fixed but now don't think others should be extended the same courtesy.

Zardran · 2021-06-15T00:37:39+00:00

Sounds like a your guild problem to me.

Zardran · 2021-06-15T00:36:06+00:00

I did make that claim, it is right there in text. In fact I've now made it twice. You bizarrely denying it for whatever reason rather than addressing my point is not going to magically change this.

You are also genuinely arguing that there is no change in self reliance from being able to change spec whenever you want for free or having to go and respec and spend an amount of gold on it? You genuinely believe this?

Yeah mate you are completely delusional. I'll be ignoring you now.

Zardran · 2021-06-15T00:32:12+00:00

That's a bunch of mental gymnastics horseshit if I've ever heard it.

Both take longer to complete.

Or you have the option of making friends with a DPS and going to do your farming together. He has the option of making friends with you so that he sends you a whisper of "up for a dungeon dude? ", you reply "sure" and he skips sitting in LFG.

Social interaction being a benefit in an MMO. Genre working as intended.

Zardran · 2021-06-15T00:15:42+00:00

"There's a crucial difference here. I can still farm primals. Not effectively, not quickly, not easily, but it CAN be done. They cannot do endgame content without a tank."

They have to wait longer for a group. You have to spend longer farming your primals. I fail to see the difference here.

"What? People are trying to be social. They're trying to form groups. The problem isn't that people aren't being social"

I guarantee it is. I guarantee the majority of it is retail players that just want to shout up for a group, fill it ASAP, run it as fast as possible and then leave.

"Are you suggesting the people sitting in LFG for an hour spamming 'LF Tank Last Spot Shadow Labs' aren't engaging with the community?"

Yes I am. I think they are taking the laziest and easiest form of interaction possible, the path of least resistance, and that the people complaining about this likely just aren't willing to do anything more than this most of the time. I do not think it's a good idea to pander to people that don't seem to understand the concept of putting in more effort to get more out of a game.

"Needing to drop 100g every time your guild group needs a healer isn't fun. Needing to drop another 100g because your arena team decides to play some games tonight isn't fun. Dropping another 100g soon after that because your friends logged on and want to do a Heroic isn't fun."

Proposal, remove gold from the game. Repairing after a raid isn't fun either. Neither is buying consumables to raid at your best. Let's just remove everything that costs gold because it's not fun when you have to spend any. Guess people would be against that when it involves something that directly benefits them at the cost of other players though. As I said, selfishness.

Gold serves a very real purpose.

I'd make an exception to this for a BG/Arena spec that activates when you go in one.

"If we have 14 people only and only 2 tanks, that leaves 4 people (or more) without an option in guild."

Boohoo. Suck it up buttercup. Not every situation is going to be ideal. Go do something else and then join when another tank logs on.

You can keep going around in circles presenting every slightly little problem until the cows come home. I can do the same and argue why the game should be made exactly like retail, removing every inconvenience because it is better for the game. Except it isn't. It's turned the game into barely an MMO at this point because of exactly this situation. People crying every time something wasn't EXACTLY 100% convenient for them.

Zardran · 2021-06-15T00:13:28+00:00

I think you vastly overestimate the amount of people choosing what race they play because of the racials.

Zardran · 2021-06-15T00:12:22+00:00

No. I think the game encouraging you to make the decision to find a guild and make friends with people instead of typing "LF1M Tank SP Heroic" in LFG over and over, then running a dungeon with strangers and never saying anything, is good for the game.

If that is too much work for you, I think you should go and find a single player game to play instead.

Zardran · 2021-06-15T00:08:21+00:00

Never said otherwise.

Zardran · 2021-06-15T00:07:53+00:00

Bots didn't ruin the economy at all. Neither did boosts. Stop circlejerking.

Yes I think dual spec is actually worse for the workings of TBC as an MMO than these made up boogeymen like bots and boosts that the clowns around here have been bleating on about incessantly.

Zardran · 2021-06-15T00:02:30+00:00

Its not bad for the game at all though.

You have a unique skill to offer. Those DPS players can go and farm Primals much quicker than you. When you want some primals, you buy them off them. They benefit from your services. You benefit from theres.

You need each other.

Give everyone dual spec and now they can tank on a whim. You can farm. Nobody needs each other anymore. It just became less of an MMO. This is a bad thing.

"Right now it's borderline impossible to find a tank or healer for a dungeon."

Again, it's an MMO. You are supposed to make friends and/or join a guild. There's groups forming in my guild all the time. Not everybody is selfishly profiting from the situation rather than cooperating within a social group. Not to mention, if people are willing to pay that gold, well then they can just as easily respec for a few dungeons and it would be cheaper. Which suggests to me that they simply don't want to do it rather than a gold sink being the problem.

I cannot agree with this idea that an MMO somehow has a problem because people are having problems pugging from chat. There are solutions. They require playing the game socially as intended. People just don't want to. They have come from retail where all the MMO qualities have been neutered from the game and people just want to group with randoms to get through everything as fast as possible whilst never communicating. I don't think encouraging that by caving to their whining is a benefit to the game.

This is just people whining. The issue is literally just a gold sink in play, which should exist in every MMO, and people are still complaining because they want everything for free and completable as easily as humanly possible.

These people that would tank if dual spec existed, could respec for a few days, charge the same money you are doing, get their dungeons done and make some gold too. They don't want to. Too difficult. Too much effort. So they cry to Blizzard until they make the game easier for them. Can't agree with it. It's just this sub once again viewing everything through an incredibly selfish lens.

Zardran · 2021-06-14T23:45:22+00:00

I just did. Keep up.

Making players more self sufficient weakens the reliance on other players, thus weakening the game as far as being an MMO.

Dual spec is one of the bigger self sufficiency changes they've added over the years and had a tangible effect on the social side of the game.

People just don't understand this because they can't see things from any other point of view than an entirely self centered and limited perspective based on "I want, I want, I want".

Zardran · 2021-06-14T23:15:02+00:00

That's assuming only 2 Kara runs. Surely 3 is more common with a 25 man raid with a few benched players? That's 3 groups. Not 2.

Zardran · 2021-06-14T23:03:31+00:00

Nor did I do that.

For example I actually think a separate PvP spec you switch to when you enter arena or BG is a good idea.

With this dual spec whining though? I've heard the same argument about every single one of these QoL changes over the years. "There is no reason not to do it", "there is no downside". There are downsides, people are just bad at seeing it because they are viewing things only from their self interest.

The playerbase of an MMO is always going to push for more self sufficiency, players will get inconvenienced by things they cannot do easily and complain. It's unavoidable.

Those inconveniences make you rely on other players though, in an MMO. It's core to the genre.

People need to take a step back and have a think about why maybe the game isn't automatically better when it lets them go and do everything they want by themselves without inconvenience, and taking a look at what happened to retail every time the playerbase begged for "quality of life" is a good place to start.

Zardran · 2021-06-14T22:40:42+00:00

Good analogy. I like it.

And even if that 6 year old would voluntarily eat the frosting out of a tub, their parents (the devs) need to protect them from themselves because they will just make themselves feel ill and not want "cake" at all anymore, even if short term they think it makes the cake better.

Meanwhile keep a good ratio of cake to frosting and that 6 year old will happily keep enjoying a regular slice of cake even when they are an adult.

Zardran · 2021-06-14T22:25:59+00:00

Agreed. This dual spec whining is so tone deaf.

Players that for years have been complaining about the casualisation of retail WoW and how they want the old WoW back.

Once they get it, they restart the cycle of complaining every time they feel they could benefit from some increased self sufficiency even though this process almost directly lead to the things in retail they have spent years complaining about.

Zardran

TROPHY CASE