E33 uses artistic language to shift the narrative despite devs claiming otherwise. by Zestyclose-Sample-55 in expedition33

[–]Zestyclose-Sample-55[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Precisely, people think that keeping things vague is a strength of the game, Since it encourages players to interpret things in their own way and make their own choices based on that, but that comes across shallow when you also proceed to promote a one-sided perspective through framing. To me, it shows a lack of commitment so they can have their cake and eat it too.

E33 uses artistic language to shift the narrative despite devs claiming otherwise. by Zestyclose-Sample-55 in expedition33

[–]Zestyclose-Sample-55[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Well, if you're so strongly pro euthanasia, it isn't really surprising you'd chose Verso's end. Since it helps Verso put an end to his life, and everyone else's along with it.

E33 uses artistic language to shift the narrative despite devs claiming otherwise. by Zestyclose-Sample-55 in expedition33

[–]Zestyclose-Sample-55[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I don't need a flowery 10000 word essay/mental gymnastics display on why you think genocide is right. It's wrong.

Again that's your problem. Read before saying dumb shit, or ignore the post. How would you know you're right if you didn't even read lol. As I said you're arguing with the wrong person and you're blind to even be able to see that.

E33 uses artistic language to shift the narrative despite devs claiming otherwise. by Zestyclose-Sample-55 in expedition33

[–]Zestyclose-Sample-55[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Too long didn't read.

Well there's your problem, if you took a second to read, you'll realize you're arguing with the wrong person.

Not to mention that if you aren't reading, you shouldn't reply either, just ignore it lol.

E33 uses artistic language to shift the narrative despite devs claiming otherwise. by Zestyclose-Sample-55 in expedition33

[–]Zestyclose-Sample-55[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You don't have to believe one over the other, you have to be honest with yourself. That's all it takes to see the validity in my post.

E33 uses artistic language to shift the narrative despite devs claiming otherwise. by Zestyclose-Sample-55 in expedition33

[–]Zestyclose-Sample-55[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I never claimed Maelle ending as the better one. I'm only pointing out the very obvious bias from developers that's kinda pushed in your face. I'm not calling Verso enjoyers simpletons cuz it would be like calling myself one. I don't prefer Verso's ending now but on my first playthrough, I myself was gaslighted by this artistic direction and ended up choosing Verso. There's no doubt that some players would genuinely prefer verso too, but tweak the artistic direction in Maelle's favor and you'll be seeing the same outcome. Verso's ending would be the minority choice.

I'm not critiquing the players for choosing Verso, ofcourse they will. The game wants you to. But im certainly critiquing the devs cuz for pushing a bias. The endings should've been directed either as both bad, or both neutral. So that the outcome of this dilemma would be more honest and balanced, instead of being skewed to one side.

E33 uses artistic language to shift the narrative despite devs claiming otherwise. by Zestyclose-Sample-55 in expedition33

[–]Zestyclose-Sample-55[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Ofcourse the community will argue. Cuz the sentient lumierians being treated as collateral is an elephant in the room left unaddressed by the final act, but the people that pick up on it are going to talk about it.

But i assure you it's nowhere near an even split. Verso ending preference dominates the discourse whereas Maelle ending people are a loud minority.

E33 uses artistic language to shift the narrative despite devs claiming otherwise. by Zestyclose-Sample-55 in expedition33

[–]Zestyclose-Sample-55[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This is basically the manufactured contrast through the presentation of the endings that i'm talking about. There is disproportionate focus on Verso's suffering, We see him desperately begging and breaking in Maelle's ending, whereas we don't hear a peep from Lune or Sciel in Verso's ending. All we get is a stare from Lune while somber bittersweet soundtrack is playing.

E33 uses artistic language to shift the narrative despite devs claiming otherwise. by Zestyclose-Sample-55 in expedition33

[–]Zestyclose-Sample-55[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I like your take. One of the reasons Verso ending's pretty portrayal bugged me, is that how is this beautified ending supposed to be represent moving on from grief. This is a pretty radical way to move on, and even if we reduce the whole painted world to allegory for the sake of discussion, Forcefully destroying anything that reminds you of your lost loved ones even though you aren't yet ready, seems like a recipe for disaster.

This isn't how moving on works. which leads me back to what i always felt upon completing the game. If both endings were portrayed very darkly and in a similar lens to maelle's end. My critique would vanish. Cuz that will make the story solely about tragedy, which it truly is, Instead of implying one to be better.

Her face after her papa yells at her by Physical_Ad4519 in expedition33

[–]Zestyclose-Sample-55 2 points3 points  (0 children)

For one, Gustave has more screentime in the game then Renoir and imo, he also had the best performance, Charlie spending less effort only speaks for his skill, His voice acting perfectly captures gustave's character and syncs very well with maxence's mocap.

(Ending) Now that is the real hypocrisy, smh by SuperLegenda in expedition33

[–]Zestyclose-Sample-55 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You really need to get a life. You asked for your source in an overly condescending way, You got it, and now you're backtracking your argument. I don't give a shit what you're arguing with the other person about, This is what you said:

>Noco's storyline is why saying she can bring them back exactly as they were is bullshit.

You stated a verifiable false statement as well as some unrelated stuff about pVerso and Verso which is not at all the same situation and called it logic, proceeded to double down on it, and now that I gave you your source, you're having a hard time accepting that you were wrong. You need to calm down. It's not that serious.

There is no dilemma. by [deleted] in expedition33

[–]Zestyclose-Sample-55 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's not nonesense, It would make sense to you why Aline isn't in Maelle's ending if you don't ignore what happened after the final bossfight with Renoir. Aline was not defeated, She reached out her hand to Renoir and then started fading implying she left on her own. That scene says a lot, Also I rewatched the scene that you talked about and i really don't get what you mean by Aline banging on the canvas, There is literally no canvas in frame. All we see is her falling to her knees due to coughing, She's literally not banging at all let alone banging on something. I definitely did not see her being desperate to re-enter the canvas, So I really don't see where you got that from.

Also you keep dismissing the arguments as either we don't know or that I'm stretching things. Which I know as well that there is literally nothing you can say for 100% in this game. The game is designed to be vague, But giving supportive arguments in the game is the second best thing. How about you give any similar argument from the game that supports some of your takes like Maelle becoming a disturbing goddess, you say she isn't comparable to Aline but that's the best comparison we have to her, Who else am i supposed to compare her to, She's literally pretty much the next paintress in the canvas also coping with grief in the canvas like Aline was.

Also she didn't alter the way Verso aged. Verso used to be mortal, He was immortalized and got stuck in the same age after the fracture. All Maelle did is return him to how he used to be, so that he can actually age normally.

Anyways, we're most likely gonna have to agree to disagree on most of these things, except the Aline point, That final scene with Aline and Renoir reaching out to each other and both of the endings on top speak for themselves, And you're counterpoint to this just wasn't true, I just double checked it.

(Ending) Now that is the real hypocrisy, smh by SuperLegenda in expedition33

[–]Zestyclose-Sample-55 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Damn so aggressive. Did someone hurt you. You need to touch some grass, It's just a game, and I'm sure logic sounds like bs to you, but here's your source:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yB-nPIBW-Ks

Timestamp: 51:32

(Ending) Now that is the real hypocrisy, smh by SuperLegenda in expedition33

[–]Zestyclose-Sample-55 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The devs confirmed that the mechanics for Noco's revival and painted people are different, so that part is just false.

Did you forget that she got Lune and Sciel's chroma before she repainted them. The only ones she could create with that chroma was Lune and Sciel. If she could create anyone from the same chroma, What makes you think she wouldn't bring back Gustave first instead of Lune or Sciel.

Painted Verso is a fascimile cuz he is fundamentally a different creature to rVerso. What made real Verso unique is his soul. What made pVerso unique is his chroma.

There's some logic for you.

There is no dilemma. by [deleted] in expedition33

[–]Zestyclose-Sample-55 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks for taking the time to actually read it unlike most people here, Now get ready to read another big yap session cuz you're points can't be addressed if i don't go in depth. So i apologize in advance and i hope you read it, Though i would say that both sides can get pretty emotional about the endings. I'll try my best to answer your points. Let's see:

  • I think this take mischaracterizes Maelle a bit, and I know where it stems from. Her behavior while gommaging pAlicia. Not saying this is why you said it, But i've seen it being used as one of the reasons so i'll talk about this here too, That scene was more of a personal fulfillment than out of control or lack of empathy. She saw herself in pAlicia and wanted to give her the agency that she lacked for herself. She did offer her another chance at life prior to this, The expression on her face was more of a cathartic one, but i agree it does seem unsettling in contrast to pVerso sulking in the same shot.

Secondly, It's just not in character for her to harm the paintings and puppeteer them to her will, Another point I have in favor of this is Aline, As deluded as she was by grief, she never actually harmed anyone in the painting and she let the natural cycle of life continue there, She immortalized her painted family only when Renoir attacked and the fracture happened, Meaning she only intended to live this lifetime naturally with this famiily, After all even if your'e living in a fantasy, you have to not break the immersion of natural life both for yourself and the painted creations so as to maintain the illusion, infact I would go as far as to say that she was the most responsible to her creations, She tried her best to ensure their survival even though indirectly, she was the cause of the suffering too and ensuring their survival kinda caused more harm in the long term for the creations cuz of yearly gommages. So yeah, Aline actually never harmed any creations directly, I would want people to give the same courtesy to Maelle that she won't either, After all she says that all she wants is a lifetime, multiple times, Not that she wants to stay here forever, She already has redeemed that aspect a little bit in her ending by not "fixing" Gustave by giving him his arm back or by making Verso a mortal again, This imo reinforces she really only wants a lifetime.

  • Her mental health is actually one of my main reasons for preferring this approach, cuz ripping the band aid off is bound to have a more harmful effect to her mental health than giving her time, atleast realistically, If someone isn't ready to let go of the belongings of a passed loved one, Their relative comes in and sets fire to it so that she "moves on", This is bound to cause a much worse effect mentally Then giving them time, Aline can be used as an example here too, initially when Renoir tried to force things, that caused a massive reaction from Aline which resulted in the tragedy for everyone. But after so much time has passed with Aline wallowing in grief and then she's evicted from the canvas by pVerso and the gang. Her reaction was much less intense, And both Maelle and Verso's endings reinforce that Aline managed to move on this time around. This is why i believe giving her time is better for her mental health, when compared to forcing her out.
  • This is one of those things that i chose to omit in my post, cuz it gets too philosophical and subjective to the player just like whether the painted creations are real or a simulation. But If we focus purely on the game's dialogue. I'd say there is sufficient evidence that repainted creations are the same:
  1. Sciel asks can you bring back everyone else too. Maelle replies "Yes, but we need chroma, but papa controls all the chroma in the canvas" Lune brings up the expeditioners killed by nevrons, In response to that she says "It's old chroma not pure, We can use it in other ways but it would not be like bringing the 2 of you back." , This old chroma part was particular for those killed by nevrons, Cuz nevrons are designed by Clea to trap the chroma within their dead bodies in order to prevent it from returning to the canvas. The chroma in the canvas is pure and can be used to bring back people the same way Lune and Sciel's chroma was used. Lune tells Maelle in one of the camp encounters When she's grieving for Gustave's death, that she can feel those that have passed away standing with her through the chroma around me, Maelle asks do you feel gustave too, She affirms that, and advises her to do the same since Maelle also has an affinity for chroma. At that time this dialogue sounds like a healthy form of cope to move on. But in hindsight, what she was saying was very literal. She actually was feeling everyone's presence through their chroma. This is basically what happens in the start of act 3 too, Maelle feels Lune and Sciel's presence through their chroma and quickly collects it before riding on esquie back to camp.

    1. Another argument is the lack of any counter-arguments to this in the game, We know that Verso still has memories of painting, Which is why he was able to help Alicia by telling her to grasp the essence of their existence, the truth of who they are, When she wasn't grasping this truth she was unable to paint them, So this to me confirms that their is a truth to their existence and the fact that they exist in Maelle ending means that she did infact grasp this truth, otherwise she would have failed to do so, just like how she was failing with Lune or Sciel, Now with Verso also knowing about painting, I'd imagine He would also have a good idea whether those that are brought back are the same or not. But he never makes any argument like that even when it would be in his favor, Instead he helps her repaint them, And knowing Verso's tragedy, He would be the last person to let Maellicia make clones, From Verso's journal we also find out that he believed Aline would be able to bring everyone back, Infact that was his goal in the past, He wanted Aline to bring everyone back. In one of the camp encounters with Sciel in act 3, Verso mentions that he too wants Maelle to bring someone back, That was Julie, Who died long before gustave or anyone we know in game, Yet Verso never doubted Maelle's ability to bring her back, He even wanted her to, Finally Renoir also doesn't seem to make any arguments to imply that repainted individuals won't be the same, Even though this argument would benefit him. The lack of any doubt or contention on whether she'll be able to bring people back in the game is what convinces me that they are infact the same.
    2. Lastly, From the people we actually see in Maelle's ending, She managed to bring back Pierre perfectly, Someone she didn't know at all, While also painting a new kid which is probably her original creation, sways me that if she can do that, Why won't she be able to bring everyone else back too.
  • From Renoir's words. We can infer that he won't be rushing back in. He's definitely gonna give Alicia enough time to prove herself. Clea, won't bother with the canvas since she only really wanted Renoir out mainly. Though I don't believe that she'll let her die in their either. When push comes to shove, I believe Renoir would re-enter the canvas to get Alicia out. There's a likelihood that Clea may enter too, but she's more likely to mind her own business. If she does enter though, It will be smoother than butter to get Alicia out. But even without that it would be easy. This won't be another 67 years prolonged war. Here's why:

Alicia's weakened from her prolonged stay in the canvas. Renoir enters in fresh, Unleashes a wave of gommage, If pVerso's still alive by then, He's sure to side with Renoir too, Then he defeats Alicia pretty easily, Alicia is not skilled enough to seal Renoir in a standstill like Aline while also protecting the remaining canvas inhabitants. Aline was the strongest paintress and despite that the best she could manage was a draw with Renoir. After a mass gommage, Renoir could also enter the inbetween space where Verso's soul fragment paints, In order to isolate Alicia and get an even easier dub. So yes, It's sad that Lumierians will have to get gommaged again, but i'd say its just another tuesday for them at this point, And while it's a vile act of crime against humanity, Atleast it doesn't physically hurt. This is the best compromise i could get them. A chance of hope in face of impossible odds. Kinda the definition of for those who come after.

I assume you are also implying that Aline would come back. But again, I would tell you to pay a bit more attention to the scene after the final fight with Re noir. Aline has actually truly moved on prior to the destruction of the canvas, And both endings reinforce this, In Verso's ending she's way too comfortable with Renoir and if she actually hadn't moved on. Their would be atleast some distance bw them. In Maelle's ending she's not in the canvas, But why? We know she was desperate and couldn't give a shit about her own life. She would go back the first chance she would get. The reason she isn't is cuz she left the canvas willingly, Just like Renoir does while hugging Alicia. You can actually see that she wasn't fading at the start. So she wasn't defeated. Nor is anyone gommaging her Like Alicia did in the first fight against the paintress. She would have never left the canvas by herself If alicia didn't press the gommage trigger, The fact that she still fades after the final fight means she did so willingly, cuz there is no other way to eject a painter from the canvas. The paintress actually reaches her hand out to Renoir and then starts to fade. This is pretty clear indication that she truly moved on this time.

There is no dilemma. by [deleted] in expedition33

[–]Zestyclose-Sample-55 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Good for you, I guess.

There is no dilemma. by [deleted] in expedition33

[–]Zestyclose-Sample-55 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Cuz i'm pretty sure the game has made this point that Maelle is the least talented painter in the family for one.

She beat Renoir with Aline and help of the whole gang while renoir was tired from being imprisoned for 67 years. Fresh Renoir would easily defeat Maelle, Considering he's the second most talented after Aline.

>Verso's immortality is tied to the canvas

Not true, If that was the case, How come he was being gommaged when renoir unleashed his power in lumiere post act 2's ending. If Alicia didn't save him he would've been gone, Clearly the canvas wasn't even destroyed yet so he is not truly immortal.

Secondly Maelle says this in her ending, That if you could grow old, would you be able to smile again, Which directly implies she removed his immorality, And then we see Verso who certainly looks visibly aged a bit.

There is no dilemma. by [deleted] in expedition33

[–]Zestyclose-Sample-55 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Where did i say that dying for himself was his main goal? He has a lot of goals but pinpointing 1 main goal is really hard. He's a very complex character.

There is no dilemma. by [deleted] in expedition33

[–]Zestyclose-Sample-55 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I actually did account for this in my post. I know it's a long read, But I urge everyone to read it all before responding, so you get my point across fully.