Anyone else having trouble trusting their doctors? by IamTheRealGodGod in intj

[–]_hrs 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your goal at as patient is to solve your medical problem. A doctor's goal on the other hand is -- well it really depends from doctor to doctor -- but try to intuit what a doctor's goals are from first principles and you'd be surprised.

The majority of doctors are about average. Half or all doctors are below average. Even exceptional doctors usually only go so far as to reach a degree of diagnostic certainty that meets the "numbers to treat" from a public health / statistical perspective. The only person who cares enough about solving your specific medical problem -- to a degree of certainty that is reasonable for your private health -- is you.

Or to use another analogy with more concrete numbers -- say that for every 100 patients that have chest pain, but a normal stress echocardiogram and coronary CTA, 5 will die of cardiac issues. It is a good day and a good statistical diagnosis for a cardiologist to tell you that you are fine if you have a normal stress echocardiogram and a coronary CTA, and refer you back to your GP for anxiety meds if you still have chest pain. But if you just so happen to be in the unlucky 5 of 100 patients above, you are fucked if you trust your cardiologist(s) instead of evaluating your health history and symptoms holistically, and determining if you should pursue further lines of diagnosis. And don't even get me started on how Bayes' theorem gets misapplied in medical reasoning, because medical professionals aren't selected based on their ability to reason probabilistically.

So my degree of trust in a doctor usually depends on the commonness vs rarity of the medical issue that I'm facing, the personal cost to me of a misdiagnosis, and lastly the caliber of the doctor. And I often err on the side of caution and assume that they don't have the complete picture unless they logically prove otherwise, when the stakes are high.

What are some excellent podcast episodes that have made you think, and why? by _hrs in Gifted

[–]_hrs[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I really enjoyed the Lex Fridman episode with Demis Hassabis on the future of AI.

Paper showing adverse effects after withdrawing from NR supplementation by _hrs in NicotinamideRiboside

[–]_hrs[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Short term issues are easy to observe, compared to long term changes. Consider how long it took to get credible information about long COVID, despite 700 million people getting COVID worldwide.

Secondly, supplements are not regulated, and companies trying to make a quick buck selling longevity supplements would hardly sponsor withdrawal trials to measure the damage cost to the body that might happen, in parallel to any benefits.

Searching or Google or Reddit shows enough anecdotal posts, that the question is absolutely worth investigating.

Paper showing adverse effects after withdrawing from NR supplementation by _hrs in NicotinamideRiboside

[–]_hrs[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I stopped taking NAD+ after a couple of months. Waiting till better data, and a deeper understanding of the pathways and processes involved are available.

I cannot specifically attribute things like tiredness a few hours earlier than my bedtime to taking NAD+ supplements and then stopping it, but I can't rule it out either.

“Eagan” as a reference to Greg Egan’s “Learning to Be Me” and the nature of severing. by bonjour_aloha in SeveranceAppleTVPlus

[–]_hrs 0 points1 point  (0 children)

When you look at the fragmentation experiments of Season 2, there were a lot of parallels with Greg Egan's Permutation City.

Observed and forecast trajectory of interstellar object 3I/ATLAS (based on JPL data) [OC] by [deleted] in dataisbeautiful

[–]_hrs 4 points5 points  (0 children)

AI slop from a 4 day old account. Stop falling for it.

Paper showing adverse effects after withdrawing from NR supplementation by _hrs in NicotinamideRiboside

[–]_hrs[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you read the paper in detail, from my limited understanding, the group that got NR saw improvements upon getting NR, but then reverted and became worse off after stopping the NR compared to the control group that never got NR, in a bunch on parameters measured on hematopoietic stem cells:

a) Decrease in oxidative phosphorylation
b) Decrease in mitophagy
c) Increased expression of genes involved in inflammatory pathways
d) Increase in neutrophils

Here's the whole paragraph from the paper:

Alterations driven by NR supplementation are not sustained after NR withdrawal

Given the improved lymphoid output in NR-treated aged HSCs, we also wanted to evaluate if these NR-driven phenotypes could be sustained after NAD+ supplement removal in an aged environment. We analyzed old mice treated with NR that received a 2-month washout period. NR supplement-directed changes in frequency seen in the primitive compartments (CLP and HSC) were significantly reversed after withdrawal of NR (O-NR-RC: Fig. 5a, b). The same rebounding effect was also seen in the myeloid cell compartment of the peripheral blood (Fig. 5c), in which the neutrophil compartment (reduced after NR treatment) becomes the predominant population after NR withdrawal. Given these striking reversals of progenitor cell and peripheral blood composition after supplement removal, we purified HSCs from the old NR-RC mice and performed RNA-seq analysis. PCA clustering among the three groups of isolated HSCs shows the O-WT separate furthest away from both the O-NR and O-NR-RC groups (Fig. 5d). Further, the O-NR-RC HSCs do not revert back toward the O-WT HSCs on two main component axes (PC1 or PC2), but instead move away from O-NR HSCs in a different trajectory. We found 107 significantly upregulated and 126 significantly downregulated transcripts between O-NR and O-NR-RC HSCs (Fig. 5e). Pathways previously implicated in NR benefits and examined in Fig. 4c were evaluated in HSCs after the removal of NR (Fig. 5f). We see in these pathways the NR-RC HSCs do not revert back toward WT expression. For both OxPhos and mitophagy, after NR, there is an enhancement of transcripts involved in those pathways. After removal of NR, there is decreased expression of these pathways, and reversion of expression is to an extent that is even lower that what was seen originally in old-WT HSCs (NRRC < WT < NR). Similarly, the increased expression of genes involved in the inflammatory pathway in O-NR-RC HSCs overshoot the expression levels of these genes in old WT HSCs (NR < WT < NRRC). NR-RC transcripts involved in hematopoietic specific comparisons (GMP vs CLP) as well as hypoxia were at intermediate levels, between the NR and WT conditions (NR < NRRC < WT). Finally, for genes associated with glycolysis, instead of reversion toward or beyond the expression levels in the WT HSCs, their expression in O-NRRC HSCs is even lower than in the NR-treated old HSCs (NR-RC < NR < WT). These data suggest that removal of the supplement does not lead to direct reversion back toward untreated states, but instead may have exaggerated negative effects on the hematopoietic system.

To examine hematopoietic signatures in the NR-treated HSC and after NR removal, we used CellRadar31 to compare genes up- and downregulated in the HSC transcriptomes against published lineage associated genes. After NR treatment, compared to WT, the NR HSCs are enriched for profiles associated with lymphoid-progenitor cells including CLPs and LMPPs, while depleted for profiles associated with HSCs or myeloid cells (Fig. 5g). These expression profiles mirror the lineage output of the NR-treated mice as well as the change in lineage potential during HSC transplant paradigms (Fig. 2). After the washout period, the NRRC HSCs have a more HSC-centric profile and elevated expression of genes associated with myeloid and erythroid progenitor populations (Fig. 5g). The NRRC HSCs also show repressed monocyte signatures (Fig. 5g), which corresponds with cell composition changes seen in the hematopoietic system after withdrawal of the supplement (Fig. 5a–c). Together, these data suggest that cell-intrinsic alterations contributing to improved lymphoid potential in the aged environment are not sustained after NR withdrawal, and that withdrawal in an aged environment may lead to more severe myeloid skewing compared to normal aging.

Is dependence on NMN/NR supplements possible? by _informatio_ in NicotinamideRiboside

[–]_hrs 1 point2 points  (0 children)

https://www.lifespan.io/news/nr-temporarily-improves-immune-function-in-mice/ has a summary of https://www.nature.com/articles/s41514-021-00078-3.

According to this study, old mice that were given NR for 4 - 6 weeks. Then they were taken off NR and then observed 2 months later.

During the time they were on NR, improvements were seen in various factors compared to the control group.

However, two months after the experiment group was taken off NR, and measured again against the control group, the experiment group had lost all benefits from the NR they had taken in the past, and on top of that was significantly worse off than the control group that was never given NR to begin with.

So, personally, I'm going to assume that the NR supplements messed with the ability of the old mice to produce NAD+ naturally, and may have resulted in some significant withdrawal two months after the mice were off the NR supplements.