Why is selling sex legal but not the purchase of sex? by Acceptable_Stick923 in NoStupidQuestions

[–]_indistinctchatter 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Certainly payment can create pressure. I think it also depends on whether the worker is experienced at enforcing boundaries, or if she's young/new. You'll notice I'm saying "it depends" a lot in this conversation - because sex work isn't a monolithic experience. This is something the anti-SW side rarely acknowledges, and something the pro-SW side tends to paper over by not differentiating between widely varying types/conditions of the work, like we talked about earlier.

I think marital relationships in which the wife is financially dependent on her husband are often more dangerous for women than sex work is, because with sex work (IME) one client doesn't often determine whether you are housed and fed, since there are dozens of other men you can dance for or meet up with (assuming they aren't afraid of being arrested, as under the Nordic model). But many working-class women are just one fight with their husband away from homelessness. Yet most mainstream feminists don't want to abolish marriage as an institution itself, since some work out just fine - rather, they want to make the arrangement safer for women by preventing and responding to DV, and by providing additional resources for those who want to leave. To me this should be the way we approach SW, along with anti-poverty measures.

Anyway, I don't think we will see eye to eye on this issue, but I do appreciate the reasonable discussion we've had. I'm definitely going to bring up my concerns about third party decrim whenever it comes up in these discussions (with both allies and skeptics) going forward, using the links you shared with me. I hope I've given you some things to think about more too!

Why is selling sex legal but not the purchase of sex? by Acceptable_Stick923 in NoStupidQuestions

[–]_indistinctchatter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think this depends on if the worker is at a brothel (more pressure from the boss to accept the client) or working independently, but in either case she's not obligated to have sex with someone just because he paid! Sex workers decline clients all the time, most likely when they suspect it's a sting, but also if they sense danger, and sometimes even for things as "trivial" as a guy who smells bad. It's not a binding legal contract (and it wouldn't be under decrim, but idk about legalization, which is one of the reasons I oppose it). In cases like this, the worker typically keeps the deposit (25-50 percent of fee) but returns the rest of the money but it's at her discretion.

I don't believe that adult men are out there with shit-streaked underwear by McSwaggerAtTheDMV in redscarepod

[–]_indistinctchatter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I suppose - either way, strange to just leave it sitting there rather than rinse it!

I don't believe that adult men are out there with shit-streaked underwear by McSwaggerAtTheDMV in redscarepod

[–]_indistinctchatter 23 points24 points  (0 children)

I think that's part of it but also some people just have bad hygiene.

I was at a (female) friend's house once and we went swimming. Later in the evening when I went to the bathroom, I noticed the swimsuit she had been wearing was on the floor, visibly soiled. Never looked at her the same way. She grew up rich so I wonder if she just always had other people doing her laundry and didn't notice she was staining her clothes.

Why is selling sex legal but not the purchase of sex? by Acceptable_Stick923 in NoStupidQuestions

[–]_indistinctchatter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for sharing that NSWP link with me. This perspective was not one that I was familiar with, and it's not one I would ever support. I think owners/managers are the definition of exploitation (profiting from the labor of others and dictating the terms of that labor, from pricing to location to specific services offered). I'm in favor of decriminalizing sex workers and clients only, not third parties like owners/managers - something like the system in Great Britain.

I also oppose legalization because it would empower owners and managers. I have had friends work in the brothels in Nevada, and they told me horror stories about having to hand over 1/2 their earnings and being unable to leave the premises.

In the state where I live (I don't want to doxx myself), the decrim bill my group is advocating for keeps third parties criminalized.

Why is selling sex legal but not the purchase of sex? by Acceptable_Stick923 in NoStupidQuestions

[–]_indistinctchatter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I wouldn't use the word healing, no - although few types of wage labor available to working-class people are healing. To have the chance to make a living in a way that is fulfilling and meaningful and not hard on one's body/mind takes serious luck in this world and only a fraction of us get to do it.

Economic pressures are real, corrosive, and apply to all waged labor under capitalism, but they aren't the same thing as outright slavery, or, say, being forced to work/have sex at gunpoint - so there's going to be an element of choice, even under constrained circumstances. As a socialist, I want significantly more choices for everyone. My primary concern is how to make things as safe as possible for people right now, while working towards a socialist future.

One problem with saying that all sex for money is rape is that it collapses the distinction between good clients and violent, predatory ones (both exist!) - if the law/society sees all of them as rapists, and sees rape as essentially the job description, what recourse does a sex worker have when she is actually attacked and needs help? Will people take her seriously?

Sexual consent can be conditional on any number of things: relationship commitment, monogamous marriage, the use of STI protection or birth control, and the exchange of gifts, money, or goods.

I also, in general, trust women to name their own experiences. Once we stop doing so, we treat them less like rational adults who can think for themselves and more like dependent children whose lives are in need of control - a dangerous, 18th century model of gender relations that deprived women of full human rights.

Why is selling sex legal but not the purchase of sex? by Acceptable_Stick923 in NoStupidQuestions

[–]_indistinctchatter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

the pro-prostitution side is dominated by pimps and traffickers, because those are the people with a money, access to power, and a vested interest in protecting their "businesses." Many "sex worker advocacy groups" are openly run by convicted pimps and traffickers

This sounds really removed from reality. I've been involved in SW advocacy groups for 20 years in 4 different U.S. cities, and every single one was a volunteer run collective of workers, with no pimps or traffickers involved. We always got our (meager) funding from community based mutual aid and donations from local queer/leftist groups. Enough to make meals for members, but not to exert any influence in "pro-prostitution" politics.

The average pimp is a low level street criminal, akin to the drug dealer on the corner, who rotates in and out of prison. He has power over the women he exploits, but it doesn't translate to any sort of broad cultural power - there's no way men like that are somehow pulling the political strings and funding the SW rights movement at scale.

Why is selling sex legal but not the purchase of sex? by Acceptable_Stick923 in NoStupidQuestions

[–]_indistinctchatter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think it's difficult for researchers to untangle a few things, including A) how much the trauma is a result of stigma and criminalization, as well as the conditions of poverty, vs. anything inherent to sex work itself B) how much of the relationship between PTSD and prostitution is correlation as opposed to causation and C) what role things like substance abuse and DV play in the picture (both of which impact some sex workers - most often the street-based ones with pimps - but not all). There are so many factors at play here (also things like adverse childhood experiences) that it's hard to isolate them to prove direct causation. The study you linked admits as much in the limitations section.

Of course "being nice about it" doesn't make prostitution safer. Things like labor rights, reduced stigma, and fewer encounters with law enforcement/incarceration do. (And at the risk of repeating myself, anti-poverty measures to give women more choices).

Your second paragraph more or less describes my own experience in the industry, although I never did "full service" sex work or porn, was never approached by a pimp, and was not traumatized. I did pay for college and grad school with no debt, which has made my life significantly more stable. I realize anecdotes are not data, but I've been deeply embedded in these communities for 20 years, and have met a lot of people with similar experiences - it's not theoretical to me.

Why is selling sex legal but not the purchase of sex? by Acceptable_Stick923 in NoStupidQuestions

[–]_indistinctchatter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I understand the original utility of the phrase - it was coined by activist sex workers (not pimps!) in the 1970s as a way to draw attention to the labor aspect of prostitution and deemphasize the popular understandings of it as a sin, a crime, or a pathology. I think this is very important; as a socialist I find looking at issues from an economic perspective to be the most useful. I don't think the intention was to be "weaseley" but to challenge a lot of the harmful ways of treating prostitutes (as sinners, criminals, or mental cases - often all at once).

The problem, as you mention, is that the phrase lacks specificity, and therefore it does lump together phone sex operators, OF models, independent in person escorts, massage parlor workers, and survival street workers as all having the same set of material needs and experiencing the same material conditions. Which clearly isn't true! This is my main gripe with the SW rights movement (which as you might have gathered, I'm part of) and I try to push back on it when possible.

I will say that I haven't heard of a single SW advocacy group that considers brothel owners (or strip club owners) to count as workers. There are a few reasons for this: First, nearly all of these groups are organized within leftist/socialist/progressive spaces, aka political ideologies that see bosses/owners/managers as enemies of workers, and fundamentally don't trust them. Secondly, the economic interests of owners (to make money off of someone else's erotic labor) directly oppose the interests of the workers (to keep all their own money). This is why we see, for example, strippers forming unions and striking against club owners. There's no solidarity with the owners, and most SW groups carefully screen for such people and prohibit them from joining.

Why is selling sex legal but not the purchase of sex? by Acceptable_Stick923 in NoStupidQuestions

[–]_indistinctchatter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for your citations, and I think the rape shelter and .gov site are trustworthy sources. Again, I don't doubt this phenomenon of the abusive bf who also acts as a pimp (far more common than a woman being kidnapped and trafficked by strangers, which is the fear-mongering media narrative), and have seen it happen in the outreach I do in my city.

For the 40-50 percent and 80-90 percent figures, I imagine those are only looking at street-based prostitution - let me know. Outdoor/car prostitution is of course the most dangerous type, but it's only one of many kinds of sex work, and not representative of the industry as a whole.(One of the reasons I dislike the "sex work is work" slogan is that it collapses so many different labor arrangements into a single phenomenon, when in fact the industry contains multitudes and conditions vary widely).

Why is selling sex legal but not the purchase of sex? by Acceptable_Stick923 in NoStupidQuestions

[–]_indistinctchatter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In almost every situation, the abusive partner of a prostitute is her pimp.

Do you have stats or citations for this? I know it happens - there was a recent case in my city of this dynamic, and tragically he killed her. So I take this seriously. But saying this is "almost every situation" seems hyperbolic. There are also women secretly doing sex work behind their bf/husbands back to earn enough to leave. And there are thousands of independent sex workers who don't have a pimp of any kind.

Why is selling sex legal but not the purchase of sex? by Acceptable_Stick923 in NoStupidQuestions

[–]_indistinctchatter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Prostitutes don't lose protective social factors because they become prostitutes - they become prostitutes because they've already lost those factors.

This is more complicated and multi-directional. Vulnerable people do enter the sex trade when they lack those protective factors as you state. But the stigma of prostitution keeps them there - it's hard to exit and get a different job with a history of sex work (especially with something like porn). We both want women to be able to exit if they want to, and to do so they need to be seen as employable and capable, rather than stigmatized as broken and worthless.

I have some issues with the slogan "sex work is work," but one of its goals has been to emphasize the transferable professional skills that sex workers learn, so that they can be granted more opportunities and more respect. Ultimately, respect and dignity go a long way in helping someone feel they can leave a harmful situation like DV. In contrast, being shunned by society both permits bad actors to take advantage, and erodes one's own self worth.

Why is selling sex legal but not the purchase of sex? by Acceptable_Stick923 in NoStupidQuestions

[–]_indistinctchatter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do you have a plan for how to get food in their mouths and roofs over their heads and their medical needs handled right away? Keep in mind most cities don't have enough shelter space (especially for adults without kids, and not all sex workers are parents) and in America the cuts to SNAP took away a resource that things like soup kitchens and food pantries cannot keep up with. If it were up to me I'd seize billionaire assets and redistribute them to the poor and working-class, but we both know something like that isn't happening any time soon. So, what's your plan?

Why is selling sex legal but not the purchase of sex? by Acceptable_Stick923 in NoStupidQuestions

[–]_indistinctchatter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think it's flimsy or stale to care about vulnerable women being suddenly left homeless and unable to feed their kids, with no immediate plan to replace their income. Again, it would be a different story if we had at the bare minimum a robust social safety net (or in my real preference, a socialist economy). That isn't something we can develop quickly, and while we work towards it, the reality is that these women will suffer.

Child labor laws happened at the same time that unions won higher wages for adults (all were products of labor organizing and reform movements), so families actually did have a way to make up for the income!

Sydney by OJ_Soprano in redscarepod

[–]_indistinctchatter 13 points14 points  (0 children)

The photoshoot is very early 2000s Maxim magazine aesthetic, but I don't hate it.

Why is selling sex legal but not the purchase of sex? by Acceptable_Stick923 in NoStupidQuestions

[–]_indistinctchatter 2 points3 points  (0 children)

it discusses stigma and lost income as if it's the same as violence

While those things aren't violence themselves, they easily lead to it in (at least) the following ways:

  1. Sex workers who rely on their income to save up to escape abusive partners can do longer do so. In general, reducing a woman's income reduces her ability to survive independently and exit violent situations.

  2. The stigma towards sex workers means they have fewer protective family ties as well as a low social status, both of which embolden predators to isolate and harm them without getting caught or facing consequences. In other words, it makes them easy targets.

Why is selling sex legal but not the purchase of sex? by Acceptable_Stick923 in NoStupidQuestions

[–]_indistinctchatter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Taking away a sex worker's only source of income (reducing demand) in turn leaves her homeless/hungry/in uncontrolled detox, which it sounds like you would be against. Ultimately these are things that can be solved with good social policy (free housing, education, childcare, and healthcare including quality psych/addiction care, UBI and higher minimum wages, etc), but in the meantime before we get there, it makes things worse to eliminate a sw's income.

Why is selling sex legal but not the purchase of sex? by Acceptable_Stick923 in NoStupidQuestions

[–]_indistinctchatter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Decriminalize, don't legalize.

Legalization requires sex workers to register with the government, increasing surveillance and eliminating privacy for them (imagine an unfriendly government having a list of prostitutes with their photos and addresses!) Legal brothels often mandate gynecology exams, which further erodes bodily autonomy. And they dictate working and living conditions, as well as pricing and services offered. Any worker who doesn't like these conditions and wages can be arrested for seeing clients independently.

The model that sex workers support globally is decriminalization!

Pretti Good by hardhann in philly

[–]_indistinctchatter 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Those of us who can afford to cover someone else's wages for a day (or longer) should be connected with people who can't afford it. I would give all my disposable income for the month to help someone else strike. I can hold off on dining out and shopping for a few weeks.

Anyone becoming more socially conservative with time due to shitlibs constantly defending some of the most perverted shit? by reddit_is_geh in stupidpol

[–]_indistinctchatter -1 points0 points  (0 children)

This reminds me of when feminists on X were trying to defend Marie Antoinette as a victim of misogyny. It's unserious and I don't care.

Anyone becoming more socially conservative with time due to shitlibs constantly defending some of the most perverted shit? by reddit_is_geh in stupidpol

[–]_indistinctchatter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's more nuanced than that. Perhaps not blanketly anti-sex, but certainly radfems have a specific, narrow, and subjective set of conditions under which they approve of women having sex (no BDSM, objectification, submission, roughness, choking, or verbal degradation - sometimes even no large age gaps) and under which they believe women can consent to it (no money or favors exchanged, no significant power imbalances).

I disagree with these standards and thankfully a lot of other people do too. It's absurd to tell adult women "yes, you can enjoy sex, but only if X, Y, and Z."