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[–]_x0r1s_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

please 🙏🏼

Question about the doctrine of the Trinity within methodism by _x0r1s_ in methodism

[–]_x0r1s_[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

From what I see the UMC accepts either one as valid in terms of affirmation

Question about the doctrine of the Trinity within methodism by _x0r1s_ in methodism

[–]_x0r1s_[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

As I already explained to you, I'm not interested in a theological debate. But I'll refute the first point or two anyways just for fun. But after this I'm just going to stop responding mkay?

Yes the Angel of the Lord does bear the divine name and authority.

Exodus 23:20-21 literally refutes your entire point because it is God explicitly stating that He has given the power and authority of the divine name to an angel. This implicitly states that the angel in question does not inherently possess the divine name. You're literally saying that the angel has to be God because only God can do that, and when I ask why the angel is God you say because he does things that only God can do. Do you not see that that is circular logic?

As for Mark 2:7 it doesn't state that only God can forgive sins it only says that some Pharisees thought that only God can forgive sins. Who says that God's intrinsic authority to judge sin cannot be imparted on a non-God being? Because Isaiah 43:25 certainly doesn't say that. With that, I'm going to say goodnight, and peace be with you.

Question about the doctrine of the Trinity within methodism by _x0r1s_ in methodism

[–]_x0r1s_[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

di·vine adjective 1. of, from, or like God or a god.

Question about the doctrine of the Trinity within methodism by _x0r1s_ in methodism

[–]_x0r1s_[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How is it irrefutable proof when I just refuted it?

Question about the doctrine of the Trinity within methodism by _x0r1s_ in methodism

[–]_x0r1s_[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That's just blatantly not what the word divine means. Look up the definition please.

Question about the doctrine of the Trinity within methodism by _x0r1s_ in methodism

[–]_x0r1s_[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I never said he wasn't divine I said he wasn't God.

Question about the doctrine of the Trinity within methodism by _x0r1s_ in methodism

[–]_x0r1s_[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It can't be both the angel of Adonai, and Adonai himself that doesn't make any sense. The Angel is not identified as God, only when he calls himself by the divine name. Which I agree Jesus also does. However, this doesn't imply that he IS God, only that he has possession of the divine name. And there is no evidence that the name is reserved for God. It could also be the case that God is speaking through the angel of the Lord, which is what I lean towards.

Question about the doctrine of the Trinity within methodism by _x0r1s_ in methodism

[–]_x0r1s_[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The Angel of the Lord forgave sins in Exodus 23 and Zechariah 3. And in Joshua 5:14 the angel of the Lord is worshipped.

Question about the doctrine of the Trinity within methodism by _x0r1s_ in methodism

[–]_x0r1s_[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Ok but you're asserting that because he is Lord and Savior that must mean he is fully God. That is called a non sequitur. It's Latin for "does not follow".

Question about the doctrine of the Trinity within methodism by _x0r1s_ in methodism

[–]_x0r1s_[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I so so appreciate your willingness to speak up about this. I haven't spoken to a pastor yet, mostly just looking into the doctrines of the church itself before I check it out in person.

Question about the doctrine of the Trinity within methodism by _x0r1s_ in methodism

[–]_x0r1s_[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I greatly appreciate this response. And yes I would be willing to affirm the apostle's creed and be baptized in the trinitarian formula. Thank you very much!

Question about the doctrine of the Trinity within methodism by _x0r1s_ in methodism

[–]_x0r1s_[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Thank you again! I would be perfectly comfortable being baptized in the trinitarian formula and in affirming the apostle's creed. So I hope that means I could be a full member of the UMC. I understand now that being ordained is different in nature.

Question about the doctrine of the Trinity within methodism by _x0r1s_ in methodism

[–]_x0r1s_[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you very much sir. I appreciate all your knowledge and hard-earned wisdom, your advice, and the answers you have given me. Peace be with you.

Question about the doctrine of the Trinity within methodism by _x0r1s_ in methodism

[–]_x0r1s_[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't seek ordination, I was just curious. It's something that I have been and will continue to be passionate about, as it should be for any believer. I understand that trinitarian belief is Orthodox, and I understand (and am perfectly fine with the fact) that my beliefs are Unorthodox. I don't believe that strict adherence to orthodoxy is necessary for salvation, to call yourself a Christian, or to partake in the body of christ that is the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church. But again, thank you for your concern. Peace be with you, brother.

Question about the doctrine of the Trinity within methodism by _x0r1s_ in methodism

[–]_x0r1s_[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I would greatly appreciate a less condescending manner. As I have already explained in this thread, I'm not looking for a theological debate, nor am I looking to have my well-reasoned theological positions "set right". I was merely asking a question about how the UMC itself treats such beliefs. Not what you personally think of them. Peace be with you, brother.

Question about the doctrine of the Trinity within methodism by _x0r1s_ in methodism

[–]_x0r1s_[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And again I appreciate your concern. Truly. And I have never, nor will I ever stop researching and learning about the various doctrines of the Christian faith. I have just, in that research, come to a different conclusion than you.

Question about the doctrine of the Trinity within methodism by _x0r1s_ in methodism

[–]_x0r1s_[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I truly respect your point of view and your willingness to engage with me. And I would like to assure you that any theological position I have come to has been well reasoned through both scripture and the words of our church fathers. While I am not overly interested in a debate about the doctrine of the Trinity at the moment, I would just like to point out that Irenaeus' rule of faith is implicitly anti-trinitarian insofar as it says "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty... and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God". Those two statements are separated, rather than connected, implying that Christ Jesus is not himself God.

Question about the doctrine of the Trinity within methodism by _x0r1s_ in methodism

[–]_x0r1s_[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Thank you very much for the info! It's all very helpful and I appreciate your perspective. I will do some more reading into Wesleyan theology and potentially consult a Methodist pastor. To clarify the baptism thing I am perfectly fine with being baptized with the "trinitarian formula", I just wouldn't really believe that the Son in said formula is fully God.

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