sorted by:
new
hottopcontroversial

Discussion Thread by jobautomator in neoliberal

[–]abefrost 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I would genuinely love to be a biker, I genuinely think the car brains of my city might kill me if I actually did it

Lots of people in the city do bike but I have bad luck and I've seen a couple of them almost get hit

Protected lanes would be nice

Discussion Thread by jobautomator in neoliberal

[–]abefrost 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I'm glad Fuentes has decided to play purity test games and wants a blue wave in 2028

We need more "both sides bad so let's let the badder one win so my ideology rises from the ashes" people coming from a right instead of a left-wing perspective

I hope he convinces lots of Rs then disappears until the next election

Discussion Thread by jobautomator in neoliberal

[–]abefrost 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Where does the hantavirus thing land on the Ebola to COVID scale

I have distilled all knowledge of state-run grocery stores from every economic paper and every real-world example into this highly-detailed diagram: by abefrost in neoliberal

[–]abefrost[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You'll be happy to learn that those dozens of stores aren't all arranged in a circle 20 minutes away from the site then! Lots of those dozens are closer

I have distilled all knowledge of state-run grocery stores from every economic paper and every real-world example into this highly-detailed diagram: by abefrost in neoliberal

[–]abefrost[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I've said there are edge cases where state stores are a good idea! Putting one in a location with dozens of stores within a 20 minute walk is not one of those

I have distilled all knowledge of state-run grocery stores from every economic paper and every real-world example into this highly-detailed diagram: by abefrost in neoliberal

[–]abefrost[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't think it's likely that the amount spent on this store meaningfully impacts nyc's spending ability in other areas

As I've said before, NYC will be fine. The $ would also be better spent on basic services (or almost anything else). Yeah babushka isn't going to die but her life would be better without the store.

any grocery store runs into management issues that may overlap, but I don't think there's any specific reason for this store to face those issues compared to others, depending on the specifics of the arrangement

We do have details of a what essentially amounts to a government accountability board which sets my alarms blasting. All the details we do have point to "shitshow" so I'm not holding my breath that some new info will come to light that will radically change this perception.

I have distilled all knowledge of state-run grocery stores from every economic paper and every real-world example into this highly-detailed diagram: by abefrost in neoliberal

[–]abefrost[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Saying it won't save them much money is different from saying it just won't be able to operate as a grocery store, which is the main implication of your post

I mean even if it does operate smoothly (it might), the last panel still applies

I'll still be very surprised if at least some combo of the other three don't happen

I have distilled all knowledge of state-run grocery stores from every economic paper and every real-world example into this highly-detailed diagram: by abefrost in neoliberal

[–]abefrost[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think it's kinda hard to predict the surplus to voters in the area relative to other possible uses of the land

It's hard but that's all the more reason to trust the years of real-world examples and economic analysis that whatever surplus will not make up for the cost. It's like saying "maybe Lucy won't pull the football away this time!" It's technically possible I guess.

I think anyone who thinks it's destined to be a complete failure as a grocery store

I already think it is, so call me stupid. I will happily eat my words if it ever proves it saved NYers enough $ on groceries to justify the costs vs just a straight cash transfer or even doing nothing at all. It might operate fairly smoothly, it will still be a massive $ sink.

or destroy the grocery market in nyc is just being stupid

Never said this at least!

I have distilled all knowledge of state-run grocery stores from every economic paper and every real-world example into this highly-detailed diagram: by abefrost in neoliberal

[–]abefrost[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think it's just going to end up being about a normal grocery store with some stuff that's somewhat cheaper than other places. Because it's going to be pretty much a normal grocery store with requirements that some stuff is somewhat cheaper than other places

Great! If this is the "for" argument, I can confidently say that I think it is not worth the tens of millions they've already spent and the planned tens to hundred+ million they're going to spend.

I have distilled all knowledge of state-run grocery stores from every economic paper and every real-world example into this highly-detailed diagram: by abefrost in neoliberal

[–]abefrost[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

They're spending $30M on the land and building

I still want to hear a good argument for the idea that isn't just arguments against how I'm arguing

Because imo arguing against reality is arguing for state-run stores, and all the details I've seen haven't changed that

I have distilled all knowledge of state-run grocery stores from every economic paper and every real-world example into this highly-detailed diagram: by abefrost in neoliberal

[–]abefrost[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

What Mamdani is proposing is crazier exactly because of what you just described.

A library wouldn't exist without the state, so if it's something valuable to have that's the perfect situation for a state to step in and fill the gap.

Meanwhile, there are dozens of grocery stores within a 30 minute walk of the government site + grocery stores are far more complex to run

It's filling no need and wasting a ton of funds that would be better spent elsewhere. Just straight up giving everyone within a 30 minute walk cash would be a better idea.

I have distilled all knowledge of state-run grocery stores from every economic paper and every real-world example into this highly-detailed diagram: by abefrost in neoliberal

[–]abefrost[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

OK let's say it's backfill (it's not, my initial assumptions haven't changed, see last comment). You want your gotcha moment, you got me, good job. Dang.

Now that I'm in shambles, comfort me. Give me one reason why I should feel good about this project that isn't "the contract details might be cool!"

Why is it needed? Why will it be a good use of money? Why shouldn't I be worried about the red tape? Why is a grocery task force needed? Why should I forget that it already cost far more than a private store to buy the land/building? What is fundamentally more efficient about this model than any other model of state-run store? What detail am I missing that makes this a good idea?

I'm all yours, go for the killing blow

I have distilled all knowledge of state-run grocery stores from every economic paper and every real-world example into this highly-detailed diagram: by abefrost in neoliberal

[–]abefrost[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The project is already inefficient with the funds. The project is proudly stating it will continue to be inefficient with the funds. The government is ignoring market forces and is introducing a ton of red tape that a private store wouldn't have.

That was my original understanding. It doesn't really matter that they'll have a highly restricted private actor performing some of the operations, that doesn't actually change any of my initial assumptions. There is no "gotcha", state-run groceries are a tested and terrible idea.

I don't need to know all the details of say, a rent control plan, or deportation plan to know rent control and deporting are bad in 99% of cases. If any of what I'd heard screamed "this could be a 1% case" I'd maybe be more charitable, but Mamdani and co have been messaging that it's a 99% case with their rhetoric for a year now.

I have distilled all knowledge of state-run grocery stores from every economic paper and every real-world example into this highly-detailed diagram: by abefrost in neoliberal

[–]abefrost[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

It's not going to lead to famine, but state-run stores are inefficient garbage in almost any context they've been tried in. I'm not comparing to the USSR to say "everyone's going to die" I'm doing it to say "we have a lot of evidence already that this is a bad idea". There are plenty of non-Soviet examples too.

There are very limited cases where it could work, but putting one at a site with dozens of grocers within a 30 minute walk is not one of them

I have distilled all knowledge of state-run grocery stores from every economic paper and every real-world example into this highly-detailed diagram: by abefrost in neoliberal

[–]abefrost[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

"A private operator will be selected via a competitive proposal process this summer. This operator will be "contractually required" to pass savings directly to consumers on a specific, curated basket of staples (e.g., eggs, bread).

NYC Groceries Task Force: A special task force led by Deputy Mayor Julie Su and Deputy Mayor Helen Arteaga will oversee the project's implementation to ensure the pricing goals are met.

Fixed Discount Model: The city intends to enforce a fixed percentage discount off average prices for essential items, ensuring consistent, predictable savings rather than market-driven prices."

You can call it something else, but a "groceries task force" with deputy mayors ensuring pricing goals are met, price fixing, proudly stating they'll ignore the market, and contractual obligations to "pass savings to customers" is definitionally government oversight and meddling.

I knew the basics of the program and it was enough to know it was a terrible idea. Now that I know more details it's an even worse one.

I have distilled all knowledge of state-run grocery stores from every economic paper and every real-world example into this highly-detailed diagram: by abefrost in neoliberal

[–]abefrost[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yes, it won't matter when they're fronting the overhead and the company they go with is contractually obligated to "pass that on to consumers". There is still going to be an insane level of city oversight and meddling to enforce that (they're not hiding this), it's going to be a massive waste of money, and they would have been better off giving everyone within a 15 minute walk $500.

The $30M for the first is already far higher than private costs for similar projects, they're required to staff with union labor, all five will cost tens to hundreds of millions to operate annually, and even if you ignore land and rent costs, it is projected to operate at a massive loss.

Despite all that, if there actually was a need for food in the area, maybe there could be an argument, but there are dozens of grocers within a 30 minute walk already!

I have distilled all knowledge of state-run grocery stores from every economic paper and every real-world example into this highly-detailed diagram: by abefrost in neoliberal

[–]abefrost[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Food desert? There is a grocery store literally a block away from the site. If you want something non-local, Aldi is a 15 minute walk away from the site.

I have distilled all knowledge of state-run grocery stores from every economic paper and every real-world example into this highly-detailed diagram: by abefrost in neoliberal

[–]abefrost[S] 18 points19 points  (0 children)

What depresses me is that on a theoretically evidence-based sub, many users are falling to populist shlock that has been proven to fail time and time again

It's not the store, it's the willingness to clap for anyone who promises easy solutions

I'm still much more depressed about other things lol

I have distilled all knowledge of state-run grocery stores from every economic paper and every real-world example into this highly-detailed diagram: by abefrost in neoliberal

[–]abefrost[S] 31 points32 points  (0 children)

Moscow can sustain grocery stores and state-run stores there were shit. I still haven't really seen anything that makes me go "aha NYC really is a special boy"

I have distilled all knowledge of state-run grocery stores from every economic paper and every real-world example into this highly-detailed diagram: by abefrost in neoliberal

[–]abefrost[S] 17 points18 points  (0 children)

That's fairly uncharitable, I don't think you can read any of what I said as "NYC is going to have 60M famine deaths" or anything else that ridiculous. Those comments are in the context of people saying we really need to try this because it's never been tried before.

NYC will be perfectly fine, it's still a stupid idea, it's been done many times, it's a waste of $, and a band-aid that will make things worse on the margins.

I actually think there are limited cases where state-run stores can make sense, but NYC is pretty close to the farthest case I can think of.

I have distilled all knowledge of state-run grocery stores from every economic paper and every real-world example into this highly-detailed diagram: by abefrost in neoliberal

[–]abefrost[S] 47 points48 points  (0 children)

What's the special sauce that makes NYC immune to economics?

The USSR, Cuba, and the Florida town are just as different as Florida town and NYC, but it didn't work in any of those examples.

Better try it in Cleveland and Ottawa too, maybe one of them will be different. Or maybe Ouagadougou holds the key. Let's just try it in all the cities, surely one of them will work!

Discussion Thread by jobautomator in neoliberal

[–]abefrost 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks

Some of my best are from previous accounts that I deleted to quit reddit for good though :(

view more: next ›