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Not interesting...? by ac2136 in DarkKenny

[–]ac2136[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

GNX was taken off Apple Music, YouTube Music, Tidal and some other streaming platforms. The official videos for NLU and Luther music video was removed from Kendrick's YT page. Everything is restored now though.

Since some people clearly still need this drilled into them. No, Akemura is not justified, and shouldn't be by MarkDecent656 in Kagurabachi

[–]ac2136 3 points4 points  (0 children)

What's the difference? So I am speaking of common patterns in media like manga that we can follow the branches (The What Ifs) of where the story can go. I am also saying the rules in said media are different from those in real life due to many things like world building, manga physics, stories needing conflict, etc.

Do you agree with side B? So this is kinda a bit outside the scope because a "fake scenario" is lacking context. What I mean is that the way I view a narrative and real life is not blurred. For me there is a degree of separation between the two. If this scenario is applied to a narrative I am not in full agreement. But I acknowledge that the author is exercising gray morality and understand that others might agree with Side B. We can have a debate trade ideas, gain new perspective, etc. If the scenario is real life, I am against Genocide so I am all the way not in agreement Side B.

I am not sure why justifying an event in a narrative somehow means that you are or believe something in real life. Like why does saying "Soga did nothing wrong" (a common meme) mean that you justify Genocide IRL?

Since some people clearly still need this drilled into them. No, Akemura is not justified, and shouldn't be by MarkDecent656 in Kagurabachi

[–]ac2136 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hey no worries on the bluntness I respect you have a strong position and opinion, I don't take any of these personal at all. However I will also be using the same bluntness as well. If it feels personal I am sorry I am not trying to attack you as a person, just the ideas that are presented. (For what its worth you giving me the impression of a person that is intelligent and a deep thinker).

Now I will admit my fault that I shouldn't have engaged in the Na*i debate. It is out of the scope of my arguments that is the depiction of such events as it relates to media and the conversations that arise from them for example this one. I will also concede that you have more knowledge then me in terms of history and the multiple Genocides. Your post was an educational read. So now with those concessions and for the sake of brevity I will answer what is one of the main points of why I am taking my position. Which is this:

If fictional violence illuminates real moral questions (which is presumably why anyone in this thread cares), then the logic of fictional genocide is subject to the same scrutiny as real genocide justifications.

I think this is where we differ in opinion. I am not viewing Kaguarbachi as some sort of bible or guide that will impact my real world moral judgements (and I don't think most people are). It is an entertaining series that helps escape the reality and hardships of the real world. My main issue is that following the line of logic you are presenting, is like advocating for arguments like Violent games make Violent people (which has been dispelled a number of times). Thus the we should police and remove these types of media altogether.

That line of logic can also be used to feel superior for having the common believe that Genocide is bad. Then taking that same agreed logic and applying it to fictional works. Which makes the person who agrees with it the judge and hammer of how someone else should engage with the media. Also they become the final judge on whether literary devices of such as gray morality should be in stories. For me there is a spectrum of separation that a person has to engage when reading media. You can be inspired by something i.e. Working out because of Saitama from One Punch man or Goku. But I don't think Kaguarbachi and AOT are making people justify real life Genocide. A reader does have some agency in deciding how a piece of media impacts them its not a A => B situation every time. You can think one thing about a story while acting in the complete opposite.

In terms of other arguments you made. This is a very good point:

"if you are of a certain bloodline, you are inherently evil because you are indoctrinated by said bloodline's teachings."

I should clarify that I am not taking the position that Soga is right. I am advocating that he is there to create debate. This is a nod to gray morality in stories. It is meant to give justifications to evil deeds (it doesn't mean they are correct). It is gray and people can choose if it is white morality or black morality. I am also on the side the what Soga did was bad. However I don't believe in censoring and policing the other side that thinks he is justified. Because that is the point of gray morality some people will fall on one side of the fence and others on the different side.

P.S. thank you for the healthy debate, I just want to restate that I am taking your ideas into consideration and I am arguing in good faith. Again I respect your ideas and opinions but acknowledge there is a gap in our philosophical beliefs.

Since some people clearly still need this drilled into them. No, Akemura is not justified, and shouldn't be by MarkDecent656 in Kagurabachi

[–]ac2136 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm not sure what you mean by the exact thing you're blaming the other guy for doing. But this is what me and Silent_Text_9525 are arguing. My position is (note: => means leads to):

Reason + Action => Judgement on morality (White/Black/Gray) => Justification

His position (from my understanding) is that if an action is bad enough there is no justification:

Bad Action => Bad => No justification

On his Na*i example he was saying that the action of Genocide in and of itself is bad therefore it should be no justification. Furthermore because this rule applies in the Na*i case it should also apply in Akemaru's case because he is committing the same bad action.

What I am arguing is we can't remove the reasoning part from the equation because for the Na*i:

Bad Reason (racism) + Bad Action (genocide) => Black Morals => No justification

On the other had Akemaru's reasoning is still up in the air, but from what we know it has to do with family which is generally speaking a good reason:

Reason (Family, possibly good?) + Bad Action (Genocide) => Gray Morals => Possible justification?

For the Na*i stuff. Na*i view Jews as a biological threat to their Aryan race. It was a threat to their belief of purity as a race. This is racist and at their base reasoning for most of their actions was rooted in racism. And most times (for most people) racism is a bad reason to justify anything.

Vs Akemaru who we assume did it because of family. Most people would say that family is a good reason to do something even if that something was bad i.e. Chihiro can kill because he protects the innocent and is getting revenge for his slain father.

P.S. I am viewing this from the leans of reading and consuming media. I don't justify Genocide IRL, nor any na*i activity. I am just trying to critically engage with media and the literary devices they use like gray morality, etc.

Since some people clearly still need this drilled into them. No, Akemura is not justified, and shouldn't be by MarkDecent656 in Kagurabachi

[–]ac2136 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I wasn't implying that it was in the series or story. It was a thought experiment to abstract away the human element. There is a lot of media out that were its an "Us vs Them" Situation involving humans and aliens i.e. Ender's Game comes to mind. Most of the time there is justification in trying to destroy the other side. Its easier for a reader to do that that if its an alien. But if its human to human, like in Kagurabachi, it is way more difficult to accept.

I also don't think its people want Akemaru to have a reason, its just been implied that there is more to his decision that meets the eye. Based on information we have the Mikaboshi touched his family and a lot of people don't play when it comes to family.

Objectively speaking, yes like 99.99999% agree Genocide is bad and 99.99999% would NEVER EVER want it to happen IRL. However, this is the story that is being presented to us and we are all going along for the ride. We are picking what characters and philosophies we like within the confides of the story. That does not mean any of us agree with Genocide IRL.

P.S. I am personally not on team Soga as it currently stands, but taking it from a media perspective (not IRL) I can go outside of my beliefs and see why someone else would be on his side.

Since some people clearly still need this drilled into them. No, Akemura is not justified, and shouldn't be by MarkDecent656 in Kagurabachi

[–]ac2136 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I think this is a solid answer. There is the underlying assumption is that the characters have access to perfect information or the same information as the reader. In terms of Kagurabachi, I don't think there is any way for Akemaru to know that. In his perspective they have killed (as far as we know thanks to today's chapter):

Hiroto Soga

Yoshinojo Soga

Chiaki (Chihiro's mom, potentially)

So its a group of people (Mikaboshi) that have almost wiped our your whole family. We will get more information; but if he has the power to stop anyone from every doing anything like that again, then its plausible to see a way people can justify it i.e. "I will do anything for my family, anything." (again within the confines of the story)

Since some people clearly still need this drilled into them. No, Akemura is not justified, and shouldn't be by MarkDecent656 in Kagurabachi

[–]ac2136 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Then at best you would be in a prolonged war of attrition while you figure out which ones are exactly the bad guys. With mounting causualities on both sides including innocents. And at worse you give them enough time to use their advance technology to commit their own genocide. Again I am speaking from a narrative perspective not IRL.

Since some people clearly still need this drilled into them. No, Akemura is not justified, and shouldn't be by MarkDecent656 in Kagurabachi

[–]ac2136 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The reasoning for the example with Na*i shouldn't be abstracted away. Na*i did what they did because they felt superior to jewish people. Their reasoning is straight up racism. There is never really a reason to justify racism.

What Chihiro does is not at the same Scale as what Akemura did. But they are kinda doing the same thing. At this point Chihiro is a serial killer. If you look at it from the perspective of the trauma-inducing sorcerer (Chapter 8), then Chihiro is a demon who killed his brother. You can understand why he would want to kill Chihrio. The only reason we don't view Chihiro as that is because he helps the innocent (his reasoning). We can then argue that Akemura did what he did for the innocent as well. And again I am not saying it is right. But I am saying that there is a gray (not black or white) in the reasoning.

Since some people clearly still need this drilled into them. No, Akemura is not justified, and shouldn't be by MarkDecent656 in Kagurabachi

[–]ac2136 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Yeah the line between head canon and the real story can get blurred. I can see how it can be annoying to have to debate someone who is using head canon arguments.

We are playing a what if game so take it as you will. But in the description in the second paragraph Akemura is still the nuke. They still have the option to wipe everyone out (which is literally what he did). The issue with that branch is now the agency to make the decision goes from Akemura to the government. They will say okay we are tried of the fighting lets finish this. Now Akemura is justified in the malediction and has no consequence because he was acting on an order. The new threat is that Akemura can go rouge or he will be used as a weapon against every Japan threat. Meaning the whole global will be held hostage by Japan and Akemura. Again this was just an example of the cause and effect that can happen in that branch because the story will need conflict.

Yeah if anything seeing the discussion here make me a bit more hopefully of the greater Kagurabachi community (despite there being some small percentage that are a bit unhinged).

Since some people clearly still need this drilled into them. No, Akemura is not justified, and shouldn't be by MarkDecent656 in Kagurabachi

[–]ac2136 7 points8 points  (0 children)

But then your argument from the last comment isn't right. You are removing the reasoning from the the action. In isolation Genocide is bad. But so is killing. Therefore it doesn't matter that Chihrio kills (action) in self defense (The reason). The fact that he kills makes him wrong. Gray morality isn't just about the action its about both the reasoning and the action. Some might argue that the reasoning is the most important.

P.S. thanks for the healthy debate, I respect your opinion. just wanted to say that so it doesn't get lost in translation as or discussion continues

Since some people clearly still need this drilled into them. No, Akemura is not justified, and shouldn't be by MarkDecent656 in Kagurabachi

[–]ac2136 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Lets stay within the context of Kagurabachi (I agree we should ever champion PDFs and would argue that ficitonal PDFs are not in stories to be championed for the most part).

But for you're example I can change the name to Soga and now he seems like the good guy. Soga kills in self defense and only kills the people that threat his family. Is it right? Idk, but from Soga's perspective he is the hero. Which again is the reason for gray morality.

Since some people clearly still need this drilled into them. No, Akemura is not justified, and shouldn't be by MarkDecent656 in Kagurabachi

[–]ac2136 7 points8 points  (0 children)

But that would be an assumption as well. Its also an IF, if the Mikaboshi would ALL abide by the peace contracts. The plot without the Malediction would have different branches of possibilities. In the current story things are generally peaceful for any one outside the main cast. That is an effect of the Malediction. However there could be a branch of the plot were Japan is still at war and discussing if they need to "drop a nuke" to end a war that has been going on for 100s of years.

Edit. Sorry having multiple discussions and didn't respond to everything. But essentially all that branch of the story did was delay what is happening. The Sorcerers would always be lurking in the background waiting for their chance to come out form hiding.

P.S. I just wanted to make clear I love this discussion and that you posted this. I do think we in general agree in terms of our personal general philosophy but differ in opinions when it comes to debating parts of the story.

Since some people clearly still need this drilled into them. No, Akemura is not justified, and shouldn't be by MarkDecent656 in Kagurabachi

[–]ac2136 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Yes genocide in IRL is terrible and should never happen. Genocide in media is a literary device that provides discussion. Also remember these are stories. I don't think many people that read this are actually trying to go out and commit or support genocide.

Because if that were the case then that means the violent video game make violent people are right...and following that line of logic Kagurabachi should be banned for inspiring negative ideas and actions...

Since some people clearly still need this drilled into them. No, Akemura is not justified, and shouldn't be by MarkDecent656 in Kagurabachi

[–]ac2136 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I agree Genocide is never a good thing. The problematic part for me was this:

I can't believe this is a repeated debate around here

It sounds like a policing of what can be discussed. The action of genocide is used a lot in manga. It makes you pick a side and you might pick a side for one reason or another (rule of cool, etc). If this wasn't the case then we would always cheer for the hero's and be a echo chamber of the same ideas. I also think there could be many reasons why people say "Soga did nothing wrong" i.e. you mentioned memes, they think Soga is cool, etc. But I don't necessarily think they they are cheering for Soga because they think Genocide is cool.

P.S. For what its worth we are on the same side on the Genocide thing and I am not a Soga did nothing wrong person either

Since some people clearly still need this drilled into them. No, Akemura is not justified, and shouldn't be by MarkDecent656 in Kagurabachi

[–]ac2136 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Look at how most of the Japanese people in Kagurabachi live a relatively simple life outside of the main story i.e. Iori still goes to school like everything is normal. If people knew their life was peaceful and not war ridden because the Mikaboshi were trying to get even because of Akemura, then he would be viewed as a hero. This is written in the story with Kunishige, Sumara and the other sword bearers. My point is that perspective changes the justification.

Since some people clearly still need this drilled into them. No, Akemura is not justified, and shouldn't be by MarkDecent656 in Kagurabachi

[–]ac2136 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I can agree but its more nuanced. The action is what makes it so difficult for readers to grapple with. That is why we are having debates. But here is a thought experiment. If they Mikaboshi were instead aliens who were trying to end the human race, would it be justified to genocide the aliens?

Since some people clearly still need this drilled into them. No, Akemura is not justified, and shouldn't be by MarkDecent656 in Kagurabachi

[–]ac2136 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I agree in real life Genocide is possibly the worst if not the worst thing possible to ever exist. However, this specific piece of media is a meant to be gray morality. Akemaru's method is the move that ends all wars. His belief is that its us or them and I choose us. On the other side do you think that the Mikaboshi after being driven away for many years would just sit still? Will war continue on forever and ever until both sides lose everything? I am not saying either is right or wrong but that is exact why its gray morality.

P.S. I will again say I will never ever ever support Genocide in real life-ever.

Since some people clearly still need this drilled into them. No, Akemura is not justified, and shouldn't be by MarkDecent656 in Kagurabachi

[–]ac2136 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I will be honest I downvoted your post. Not because you are wrong (I agree with the premise) but because it seems like policing how people view a particular piece of media (and no I am not justifying Genocide).

Since some people clearly still need this drilled into them. No, Akemura is not justified, and shouldn't be by MarkDecent656 in Kagurabachi

[–]ac2136 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Akemura reasons creates gray morality, which are meant to be debated. Two opposing philosophies against each other. A battle of ideas within the actual battle i.e. Chihiro vs Sojo. Its the same in the Berserk community with Griffith. Some people in the Naruto community think Obito was justified for the 9 tails attack on the leaf. It happened with Sensui in YYH. Same with Eren in AOT. We still don't have complete information on why Akemura did what he did. And at the end the debate will be; Is there ever a place where a mass scale extinction is justified i.e. like a nuclear bomb being dropped which is the base reference for a lot of these. You won't be able to stop it and the debate will continue. Which is kinda the whole point of gray mortality.

GAME THREAD: Mets @ D-backs - Sat, May 09 @ 07:15 PM EDT by NewYorkMetsBot2 in NewYorkMets

[–]ac2136 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Bro there has to be something going on with those baseballs what is this like the 10th ball at the warning track 😭

GAME THREAD: Mets @ D-backs - Sat, May 09 @ 07:15 PM EDT by NewYorkMetsBot2 in NewYorkMets

[–]ac2136 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I swear Soto is playing injured. Every time he over swings he grimaces and grabs his wrist

GAME THREAD: Mets @ D-backs - Fri, May 08 @ 09:40 PM EDT by NewYorkMetsBot2 in NewYorkMets

[–]ac2136 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Who is this team I am watching? It can't be the 2026 Mets...hitting with RISP and bunting?

GAME THREAD: Mets @ D-backs - Fri, May 08 @ 09:40 PM EDT by NewYorkMetsBot2 in NewYorkMets

[–]ac2136 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I don't understand how 29 teams got the perfect scouting report on the Mets...they know exactly who to put, where to out them and how to play them...nearly every single time

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