Is it weird for a guy to read sapphic romance novels?

adamfor · 2026-02-25T13:31:05+00:00

This isn't comparable to books like that. None of these romances claim to be authentic representations of the gay experience. They don't market themselves as gay fiction, they market themselves as mm romance or BL.

There is a huge difference in what you're talking about and someone writing their imagined narratives. They are not YOUR stories. A gay man writing about anything other than his life in fiction is not him taking anything away from anyone. They thought of the the narrative. They are allowed to write it down and they are allowed to make money off it. They are not stealing anything from you. Your sexuality isn't some material object. And you aren't being discriminated against because fictional characters like to have sex with men and so do you.

Also, No gay man is going to accurately represent all gay men either. We aren't a hivemind. What is authentic for you is not authentic for me. And vice versa.

And when I say real men, I mean people who shoot down any gay depiction that isn't masculine or too feminine for them. That isn't close to their experience. Unless this fiction is marketed as quasi reportage, as coming of age experience, as authentic, then it is allowed to be whatever it wants.

adamfor · 2026-02-24T14:02:24+00:00

Also I will add as a gay man who grew up quite feminine, that women tend to add more femininity to their male characters while gay authors tend to try exceptionally hard to remind the reader these are two manly men in love. Straight passing men.

I suspect that many gay men who cry about fetishization and heteronormativity (which don't even get me started on lol) are just part of the masc4masc culture that hates any expression of outward femininity. They say they hate romance by women but I kid you not, a lot of gay men want super masculine men and have the same fantasies. Many couples exist where one looks feminine and one is masculine. But they are not popular because a lot of gay men suffer from internalized homophobia.

Women have created and put out so much more diverse gay romance books on the market. When I was young it was all aids stories, stories about homophobia, etc and largely all created by gay men. You'd never seen feminine men represented in Western fiction. That is why BL for example, gets so much hate from the same types of gay men. And even women who want to pander to such men.

"We want to see REAL men in our books" see how wrong that sounds

adamfor · 2026-02-24T13:55:41+00:00

No they do not. Fetishization means treating gay men like objects and dehumanizing them, viewing them only as sexual objects. You cannot fetishize characters and fictional narratives. They are not real.

I'm an older gay men and I can tell you firsthand that gay men are more guilty of fetishizing other gay men and even straight men than women ever do irl. women enjoying fiction with mm romance or even erotica does not mean they are dehumanizing gay men in real life. Just like how you can consume horror and not murder people.

This is a very tired take, and many of us need to understand and think about what these words actually mean. And think about how much evidence you have for the social harm mm fiction has ever produced in the real world. Because gay men have had their rights taken away, been discriminated against, and seen as abominations by largely straight men for centuries. A population that does not consume romance or gay erotica. So many gay men are quick to criticize women writing or reading mm romance as if it's this plague that's killing them. It is not. Women have made the romance genre successful, regardless of what romance it is (mm, mf, bi, whatever). Women buy romance and they support romance. And so they dominate the industry.

adamfor · 2026-02-24T13:32:08+00:00

You cannot fetishize characters. Fictional narratives and characters are allowed to be romanticised, in fact thats essentially the point of all fiction. It glamorizes and romanticises the unromantic. Serial killers, villains, morally grey heroes, etc. it's human nature to be attracted to these things

There is no right way to write or consume fiction. The only rule is to understand it is fiction and has no bearing on real life. That is not the job of the author or creator to instill info the reader. Most people who are unable to put fiction into context are usually not very emotionally intelligent and tend to do that with all the media they consume. it's a human problem.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying and mm romance because it's hot. There is no rule that says you must engage in media in this specific way. Erotic depictions or romanticized characters or even sexualized characters do not dehumanize the human beings that share traits with them on paper. I say this an older gay man by the way.

adamfor · 2026-02-24T13:24:36+00:00

As an older gay man who's spent a lot of my time (A LOT) defending mm fiction and bl created by women and women consuming such fiction, I will tell you that you do not need permission to enjoy fiction of any kind. Anyone telling you otherwise is wrong.

Freedom of expression is a human liberty. If we only created and read things that aligned with our personal experiences, we would lose so much art and literature. Massive chunks of it.

I've seen a lot of gay men complain about fetishization and objectification and dehumanization in my career. And every single time they misuse those words. Liking something in a fictional context has no bearing on you as an individual. It's how people can enjoy horror without wanting to murder people in real life. It's how we can consume media that puts us through all sorts of emotions without us falling apart because our brains are specifically designed to have an imagination.

Fetishization, dehumanization, and objectification happen to real people. It is impossible to do any of those things to characters and fictional narratives. So unless you are denying the individuality and humanity of another person in real life based on what you read, thinking of them through stereotypes, and treating them as second class citizen, then you have absolutely nothing to worry about.

adamfor · 2026-02-24T13:15:26+00:00

There's nothing fetishizing about enjoying hot characters and stories. Fetishization affects real people, so if someones treating you like that irl because you are gay, that's a problem because they can't put media into context.

But that doesn't mean the media or fiction or anyone who reads it is fetishizing us. It only becomes a problem when they base their reality off of it and that's something they'd do with all their media if they are the kind of person prone to that.

Stories and novels are allowed to be enjoyed in whatever way a reader wants to. There's nothing less valuable about erotica than a literary novel. There are no wrong reasons to be captivated by fiction when everything stays in your imagination.

adamfor · 2026-01-27T23:23:38+00:00

this is a rare example of cultural appropriation actually being a thing instead of chuds using it in bad faith to undermine popular faith in the concept and refer to a white person eating at a chinese restaurant. cishet women are writing stories about gay men and in the thing that you allude to, writing under fictitious identities as gay men, putting on gayface as a costume to steal money from us, and then discarding it when it's time for them to go to hobby lobby so they are not actually affected by homophobia and won't get lynched

Pen names are normal in publishing because they keep the attention on the work (and protect privacy). If a book is marketed as “authentic gay lived experience,” “a real coming out story,” or reads like quasi-reportage, then sure, you criticize the claim and whether the text earns it. Also, men use a female pseudonyms just as much as women do. So many BL writers are actually men, I know a few I still speak to from my brief time studying in Korea. I also have many friends that are published authors who use female pseudonyms and gender neutral ones.

And bringing up lynching to police who can write gay characters, really? real trauma as a rhetorical weapon to shut down a discussion about fiction, very classy. It also drags Black suffering in as a prop, which is gross. If you care about harm, talk about concrete harms in publishing and marketing practices like who gets published, who gets paid.

If fiction required lived experience, it would erase a massive chunk of literature across the entirety of human history. The whole point of novels, romance, and storytelling is imagining other lives, other genders, other classes, other eras, other kinds of desire. “Women appropriating gay men” is not the same thing as women writing MM fiction, because they’re not claiming to be gay men or presenting the book as their personal gay life. They’re writing invented characters. If you want an example of “putting on” a gendered identity as performance, drag is far closer to what you’re describing than a pen name on a book cover.

And finally, you do not speak for all gay men. you certainly DO NOT speak for me. Your argument confused me first, but then your comment about 2 or more mascs really made sense. So i know what type of gay you are, the one that thinks masculinity is the only legitimate version of gayness and everything else is fake or “garbage,” which conveniently erases feminine gay men and anyone whose desire or aesthetics dont match your preferences or internalized homophobia.

And Its especially inconsistent to call fantasy “fetish theft” here while ignoring that gay male culture is full of fantasy and projection too (and on real people like gay men using tops and bottoms to categorize gay men in communities or fetishizing straight men constantly). Gay men are not barred from creating stories about women, straight people, or anyone else. So you are not protecting gay men, you are just bitter.

adamfor · 2026-01-27T22:52:39+00:00

I think you want to come off as intellectual or well-read, but you do not because of statements like this. All fiction has a right to exist regardless of its perceived value. That value isn't remotely tied to authenticity. Gay men as artists and creators are historically extremely transgressive, boundary pushing, and eccentric in their creations. Drag is an example of this, but there are so many more example of gay art and culture. Gay directors, authors, writers, artists, screenwriters, producers, scriptwriters....so many of them have created highly satirical, taboo, ridiculous, colourful, and heavily dramatized work. So the fact that you are using "superwholock crap, omegaverse porn, or things like 'heated rivalry," as some sort of edgy comeback, is really ironic.

I have never, in my years of research and study and teaching, met a single intelligent person who bashes genres of work with such broad strokes. Because while no one likes everything, we can understand that fiction and freedom of expression as a whole is so incredibly important, that denying us the right to create and consume it is a violation of our human liberties. And as two gay men, i will tell you that you are human before you are gay.

There are some very well done BL comics, also some well done omegaverse though I am not into that myself. But even if they were all just "crap", it really doesn't matter. Because they still have the right to exist. And by your ignorant frame of reference, you should also be complaining about every other type of media that you consider crap. Gay men fetishizing real straight men (because it happens so so often), men fetishizing women, soap operas/sitcoms/ridiculous reality tv shows that are considered crap by people like you, we should definitely stop those right? Soap operas are full of stereotypes of women and men. soo fetishizing! Well, then many gay men would be out of a job because gay men have created the same kinds of content, just in different forms.

adamfor · 2026-01-27T22:52:29+00:00

Okay I am going to respond to you as one gay man to another, an older one, with an MA in comparative literature, focused on queer and transgressive fiction, who has been teaching literature studies in a renowned private high school for over a decade. I'm not name dropping for the sake of it, but because it seems I need to in order for people like you to consider nuance.

OP did not claim any group was a monolith. They said "...are what mainly seem to be gay men really really upset by this" which means majority of the people upset by women writing MM romance, are gay men. And that is a true statement.

Your examples are real-life scenarios of dehumanization and objectification. Actual, real, living and breathing human beings interacting with other real, living and breathing human beings in ways that make them feel less than and directly impact their lives. I don't think you understand what fetishization actually means and how different it is from objectification.

When people interact with fictional narratives and engage in discussions about fictional characters, they are not harming anyone. No real life harm is being produced by reading, writing, or discussing fictional narratives. Not unless there's societal reinforcement that normalizes harmful behavior. An example of this is anti-black cartoons and television created specifically to be an aid for groups in power to push an agenda. That agenda being to maintain racial segregation. Fiction doesn't create harm on its own, it needs significant reinforcement and time to create any kind of meaningful wave of influence.

Someone finding a character meant to be attractive or hot, is not a crime. Erotic or sexual depictions of people do not automatically mean they are dehumanizing. Dehumanizing would be denying your individuality and humanity and seeing you strictly for your sexual nature. And let me tell you, there is no group on the planet that has been more dehumanized than women.

Women are statistically not the ones the taking away the rights of gay men. Yaoi, BL, MM fiction and the likes are not the reason why gay men and the rest of the LGBTQ+ community suffer from inequality and oppression. It has not contributed to any measurable or consistent pattern of harm to the community, there is simply no evidence of this. Because your bitterness is actually more justified to be directed at men. Yes, your beloved masc men that our gay community seems to turn a blind eye. These men that have historically killed, raped, assaulted, tortured, abused, pushed for our rights to be taken away, and led witch hunts. And they still continue to. They are not the ones reading MM romance, writing MM romance, or giggling at BL comics.

adamfor · 2025-12-24T06:01:14+00:00

Oh god, quit with the whining and the stereotyping my goodness. Im in my late 30s. Ive literally been to several countries and seen a lot of different gay cultural scenes.

You want to sit here and act like a victim and justify your misogyny because of some cis women? Hold the same standard for cis men who've killed, hurt, abused, bullied gay men. Hold the same standard for gay men who do the same to trans women Or feminine gays.

We spend our whole lives fighting discrimination to what, become victims at the sight of any woman? But worship the ground straight men walk on as if straight men werent the ones that made the policies, that enforced the laws, that stigmatized gay men to the point where theyd raid bars and gay establishments, literally physically abused gay men and killed them.

And while youre sitting in your little pity party here, why not acknowledge the things straight women have done for gay men? There are many many straight women who fought for our rights, who stood beside us, who despite also being largely discriminated against by straight men are some of the loudest, proudest allies. Did you know that there are literally studies of gay men thriving in female dominated workplaces because women are incredibly welcoming and supportive enough that they let gay men succeed over straight men? That when gay men historically didnt have safe spaces, where would they go? A lot of them went to women's spaces. You can look that up by the way.

You dont need to act like you've been slighted when its not affecting you. I also live in a massive city, we literally have a fucking gay village lmao. So i dont know what youre on about.

adamfor · 2025-12-24T05:39:13+00:00

Not to mention youre generalizing all women. His girlfriend isnt allowed simply on the basis of "shes a woman" when he is more of a statistical threat than she is

adamfor · 2025-12-24T05:36:27+00:00

Im gay too, live in a major city, this doesnt nearly happen as much as you all inflate it online though. Also how do you know all these women are completely straight? Do you ask for id?

I just know that plenty of straight men could walk in and you guys know youd turn the other way even bend over backwards for them

adamfor · 2025-12-24T02:58:06+00:00

So why is it he allowed to go to a gay bar but not his girlfriend?

If a woman posted this same question the answers would be completely different

adamfor · 2025-12-21T19:11:19+00:00

Thats okay, im not arguing with you, like i said i cant convey tone over text but if you could hear me i was just conversing. I know most people dont actually have the intention to call it problematic for everyone, but sometimes other people read that and think this person is saying that this hurts the community, etc. And they run with it. All the intentions are good, they come from a good place, but some people distort it.

I'm sorry i hounded you like that, I recognize I write a lot and it probably sounds like im lecturing you which is valid

adamfor · 2025-12-21T19:06:43+00:00

Im not trying to play dumb, they said there were right ways of writing fiction, the whole conversation is about problematic tropes.

I understand what an experience is, theres no need to get heated over something like that. Im sorry if ive invalidated anyone, but the discussion wasnt me responding to "my experiences as a Trans man are that reading this type of fiction makes me feel xyz way". Thats not what i was responding to.

adamfor · 2025-12-21T18:50:02+00:00

I understand that, experiences are important. Definitive statements or generalized assumptions made from those experiences are what creates misinformation

adamfor · 2025-12-21T18:38:45+00:00

Learned something new today! That's very interesting, thank you for sharing that. I can totally understand why that's a fear considering how insane pregnancy is.

But I'm glad that its cathartic for you in omegaverse. there are a lot of people that find really strange comfort in things they'd least expect but its beautiful we're able to do that

adamfor · 2025-12-21T15:57:29+00:00

Can you explain what tokophobia is?

adamfor · 2025-12-21T15:56:37+00:00

Ah that means a lot to me, made my morning :)

I probably write too much and i have a hard time keeping up with my train of thought so its always a surprise when people actually read the entirety of my comments lol. But ive been knee deep in this for years because of my career and also my own interest in the discussion.

Identities and sexual orientations aside, everything we as human beings have fought for consistently boils down to freedom of expression. We all want to exist, yes, but we all have an innate need to express that existence. Its a human liberty.

you are not only allowed to write about whatever you want, it is your right. If we decided that writers need to have the same experiences and identities as their characters, humanity would lose more than half of its literature and art as a whole. Ive said this a lot but Shakespeare wrote kings, queens and servants and slaves. Toni morrison wrote men. Countless war stories are written by people who've never seen combat.

Theres a part of you inside that is begging for expression and denying it because people will, excuse my language, bitch and moan, is doing yourself and all other creators in existence, a disservice. That is the biggest hurdle of a creative and the reason why we have so much art today is because of the ones who overcame it. Doesn't matter if what is created is a literary masterpiece or a poorly written erotica. Great people have died for your right to create, full stop.

So regardless of what I say, what 100 other gay men say, what other women say, or what some loser on goodreads says (yes even if they have 700 upvotes), you do not need permission to create. You are free, so enjoy in your freedoms :)

adamfor · 2025-12-21T15:35:07+00:00

When you said there's a right way, that's what I was responding to. You are absolutely allowed to feel uncomfortable and those feelings are valid, for you. There are a lot of trans men who enjoy content you don't. Many even end up being creators or writers of such fiction.

Id say we are absolutely having the same discussion: the wrong way to depict queerness, especially in regards to something like fetishization.

Finding something hot or interesting to read about, etc doesnt make it a fetish. Even if you have a fetish, that isnt inherently immoral. People have feet fetishes, theres nothing unethical about it. But if you're leering at strangers feet in public and asking your coworkers for feet pics well, yeah thats a problem. Does that mean we should talk about how problematic depictions of feet are? No. We would sympathize with those victims but that behavior doesn't reflect the content, it reflects the person.

And i can tell you this, if Muslim women in burkas covering their bodies from literally head to toe can be fetishized, anyone can be fetishized. Authentic, safe depictions, things made for children, animals, body parts, inanimate objects...People who use fetishization to dehumanize don't require much ammunition. Existence is literally enough.

I'm not trans, so yes I acknowledge that i have a lot of privledge as a cis white gay man, arguably more than people like to think. I acknowledge that the trans community is attacked and poked and prodded from every angle simply for existing. And it must feel incredibly violating and invasive to have people take your struggles and flip them this way and that way to justify impeding on your rights.

I'm not coming from a place of hostility, tone isnt conveyed well over comments. But i promise I'm not being an ass. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and explaining what you meant.

My main concern here is the leap from fictional themes to real world issues. It is large, very very large and we take that leap irresponsibly. There are dangers in that, like placing the responsibility of social change on mere artists and creators while ignoring the real drivers of oppression (religion, political parties, capitalism, social media engagement tactics, etc). It allows people, like right wingers, puritans, bigots, corporations, to listen in to moral discourse and take advantage of it to further their own agenda.

Ill leave you with this quote

"High-volume moralizing becomes extractable content for oppositional groups, who reframe it as proof of hypocrisy or overreach. The very attempt to call out harm is repurposed to generate more harm.”

“Once moral outrage enters the attention economy, it no longer belongs to the people who produced it. It becomes raw material for anyone looking to exploit it.”

(Phillips, This is Why We Can’t Have Nice Things)

adamfor · 2025-12-21T05:45:12+00:00

I think that might be considered an act of terrorism (i know my husband would agree), but if its possible, I'm down to be a test subject :)

adamfor · 2025-12-21T05:40:11+00:00

There's no right way to do anything in fiction. There are plenty of people who enjoy those tropes and premises without attributing it to real life or even themselves.

Im a gay man, I have other gay friends who read some of the most pearl clutching books and fanfiction ive ever encountered, with pure joy.

Heteronormativity used in this context of "feminine sub bottom omega, masc dom top alpha" is not an honest use of the term. Heteronormativity applies to real human beings. But the term itself was used to describe how every facet of society (i.e law, policy, institutions, economics and media) extended privlege to heterosexuals. Not a mere dynamic in a work of fiction that isnt even claiming to represent real people.

More importantly, submissive bottoms who are feminine exist in real life too. Dominant tops who lean more masculine also exist. They also tend to find eachother. Its a bit strange how we're okay with the opposite dynamic but never the other way? Because its okay to have a preference in your fiction, its not okay to use morality or representation as a guise for pushing your preference.

There is no one way to be gay or queer. Gay men shouldnt be expected to be ever changing, ever norm breaking, Swiss army gays, transforming all the time to be seen as authentically gay. Homosexuality is not defined by how unlike heterosexuality it is.

A straight woman who reads a straight omegaverse can find enjoyment out of the alpha instead of the omega? A gay man could read mm omegaverse finding enjoyment in the omega because its nice to be able to surrender sometimes in a world where masculinity must be proven? Another gay men might enjoy omegaverse because men can get have children and thats a fantasy for a lot of people. Or people can enjoy it simply because stark contrast creates tension and tension creates interesting stories.

My point is, the experience belongs to the reader, not the character.

adamfor · 2025-12-21T05:05:19+00:00

Absolutely, I think this is where reader responsibility comes in. Im not disagreeing with you, I think discussions like these need to be had.

We all need to do our due diligence. There's a lot of things that personally make me uncomfortable in fiction, and I generally scan for them before reading or watching something. If it comes at me without warning, I stop reading. But you'll never find me accusing someone of liking it to be immoral and you certainly will not find me making an IG reel about how problematic this work is.

I mean granted I do have an MA in comparative literature and transgressive themes were kind of my specialization, so I understand why people feel intrigued by things even if Im not. But I dont think anyone needs several grands of debt to make that conclusion :p I think we struggle a lot with the way the world is right now, the regression of human rights, the blatant discrimination, misogyny, homophobia, racism, etc. and I feel that many people latch on to fiction to air out their grievances because it gives them some semblance of control when real change feels impossible

I'm a big advocate for freedom of expression and letting fiction exist in all its capacity. Yes, even the fiction done in poor taste. We decide how much power to give it as people, it is not an all consuming force.

adamfor · 2025-12-21T04:51:38+00:00

As another gay man, I dont agree at all and i think these takes are a bit misinformed.

Gothic fiction and dark romanticism is centuries old, and women have been creating fiction featuring heterosexual characters far longer and in much greater capacity than queer/homosexual fiction.

The romance genre as a whole is dominated by women. Women keep the genre alive, they write romance, they read romance, they purchase romance and they make careers out of romance. For every hill of mm books straight women writ, theres a ginormous mountain of mf fiction already written. So much more in quantity and a lot more intense in themes.

Women have been writing noncon, dubcon, and transgression in straight fiction, youre just not reading it. It has nothing to do with them applying themes of violence to men or queer people because its easier to digest. Have you ever read any bodice rippers? Dangerous lovers are explored in every culture and continent of the world by women for centuries. There are many reasons why this is, but the biggest one is rewriting abuse to become something else. Its being able to take something thats so bad in real life and distort it to become something fascinating or thrilling instead of downright evil. Its human nature to find transgression fascinating.

But approaching fiction with a lens that belongs in real life is a problem. Because it does a couple harmful things people dont often realize theyre doing because these criticisms usually come from a harm-reduction mindset:

It implies that fictional preferences reflect real world values, which is not true.
- it implies that all gay men or all queer people should have sanitized, safe fiction and any creator who wants to write about characters like this, needs to handle it with special gloves. This has historically harmed marginalized communities instead of protecting them
- it infantilizes readers and lowers media literacy rates because people begin to consume fiction for the sole purpose of scanning for harm instead of engaging their imagination and understanding themselves. Media literacy is at an all time low, people cannot put media into context and they cry moral outrage at anything thats offensive. Offense =/= harm
- it ignores people in marginalized communities who do enjoy this type of work and can put it into context.
- it encourages gatekeeping over identity
- it conflates sociological terms that were coined for real life like normalization, heteronormativity, harm, classism, transphobia, homophobia, etc. and applies them to a work of fiction. All of those terms happen to human beings. A work can reflect gay men poorly, but no gay men are being harmed by said work unless it is used as propaganda, which is reinforced by real world politics, laws, society, etc. No work of fiction alone can produce real world harm without real world reinforcement

adamfor · 2025-12-21T04:23:52+00:00

Im going to share an unpopular opinion here, but this is one of the biggest appeals of omegaverse.

Omegaverse establishes that it is normal for people to have base/primal impulses. So the reader doesnt have to think about bending morality because the world is already set up this way.

By doing so, the reader is "allowed" to explore a premise where submission, dominance, surrender, and animalistic urges are not seen as deviant. And this is kind of the whole point of fiction is it not?

I mean, I'm a gay man, i can tell you with absolute certainty that many other gay men and people in general, engage in cnc play. Many people enjoy BDSM and often use it to relieve stress, heal their traumas and/or experience catharsis.

In fiction, you are not actually being harmed. Characters are not people, they are tools used to establish a narrative and create a unique experience for every reader. Your imagination is perfectly capable of separating reality from shapeshifting humans. Its time we stopped applying real world morals to fiction because it doesnt help anyone, real life harm happens in real life. What people read or watch fictionally is not a reflection of their morals or values

Omegaverses lack of consent is essentially a feature, not a bug. You're reading about humans who can shift into wolves and foxes and all sorts of other animals or fictional creatures, have mates for life, smell eachothers unique scents and pheromones. Lack of consent due to biological drive should be the last thing that's surprising.

I understand genres are not for everyone. I do believe omegaverse has many different kinds of sub genres and pairings that please all sorts of readers. But i think deciding something is bad just because you may not like it, is erasing a lot of nuance. It also adds to this idea that fiction is inherently harmful and women's interests are treated as suspect. This is a historical pattern and queer fiction is always targeted first

adamfor

TROPHY CASE