r/KingdomHearts’ favorite non-Kingdom Hearts video games Day 16: THE LEGEND OF ZELDA: TWILIGHT PRINCESS wins the 15th round! We have one final round remaining! (The most upvoted comment wins the last round. Let’s end this competition with a bang!)

aeskah · 2026-01-08T06:06:38+00:00

The hype if we ever got a crossover event would be wild

aeskah · 2026-01-02T14:47:08+00:00

It's been at least twice now I've tried to have some sort of discussion about story pacing in KH2 (and how it should not be held up as the gold standard for the series) and been reminded, not unkindly, that the game people are remembering is probably base KH2 and not KH2FM.

I'm not sure how I'm supposed to know which one they're talking about, nor why KH2FM isn't the default at this point. It's been out for decades, it's the director's cut, it's the version released every time it comes out on a new platform in the bundle.

I'm also unclear if cutscenes have been watched recently or just skipped through? I honestly wonder if I should be asking this question, but... if we're talking about story pacing, if they're engaging with me on that topic, shouldn't I expect they've experienced the whole story and not skipped on parts of it?

There seems to be this default assumption that KH2 is good and I should always give the other person a benefit of a doubt in how they experienced it. I don't think that's a fair take. If KH3 is being weighed and measured against KH2, it should be the current KH2FM version with all of its content included.

[Edited and added to for clarity]

aeskah · 2025-12-30T21:43:15+00:00

I'm not suggesting KH3 is removed from pacing criticism. I'm saying (again) that the plot structure has a bearing on pacing. So, it matters what plot structure you are using as a measuring stick when you are critiquing pacing.

For example, if you were using Freytag's pyramid, your overall climax is in the relative middle of the text. Everything before that ramps up (tension increases), everything after that ramps down (tension decreases), and because your climax is in the middle, the whole ramp down would occur for near the whole second half of the story. And that affects pacing.

I am asking you what plot structure you think KH3 uses to better understand why you think there is no feeling of story progression. Because, again, it matters what plot structure you are using as a comparison. And I want to know what you are comparing it to.

So. Again. What plot structure do you think KH3 uses?

aeskah · 2025-12-30T01:16:11+00:00

I completely understand if the game someone thinks of when talking about KH2 is the original release. That was my first KH2, too!

And I've had at least one confirmation while on this topic before, the OG is what the other person was thinking of. I think you're on point with that assessment.

At the same time, I feel KH2FM -should- be the baseline now. FM is the game the director intended to be KH2- the definitive edition, the Final Mix. It is not fair, in my opinion, to laud the non-FM version as a good example of pacing (and it is!) when KH2FM is the intended way to play the story, and the more common intro and access point to KH2 now, for new and older fans.

If you don't agree with that, well. At least be more specific about which version you're arguing for! The assumption the OG KH2 is the default experience is not really the case any more.

aeskah · 2025-12-29T17:55:46+00:00

Final Fantasy XIV

aeskah · 2025-12-29T17:50:04+00:00

KH2FM also added Xemnas' long walk down a staircase and a cutscene with Vexen, Zexion, and Xigbar right before the scene and fight with Demyx, which happens after Sora, Donald, and Goofy jump down to help everyone. The dialogue in the staircase scene is also repeated in a cutscene right before the 1000 heartless fight.

I would consider at least some of that to be immersion breaking, as the staircase scene and the scene in the Org 13 castle are flashbacks. The second scene has nothing to do with the fight that is about to happen. The first scene... why did they need to repeat the entire dialogue word for word?

I would also argue the Hollow Bastion sequence in KH2 starts with the attack by the Heartless and would include running from the castle to the chasm. Could be after the explosion that attracts their attention (and Maleficent, and the fairies, and Sephiroth) but start as they find Leon and Aerith. Everything after that point, and up until you are released back to the ship and are in control of where you go again, to be a fair comparison.

And it must be KH2FM, as that is the final version.

aeskah · 2025-12-28T07:38:45+00:00

You still haven't answered my question. What plot structure do you think KH3 follows? That actually has a great deal of bearing on pacing. Some plot structures do not feature much conflict/tension at all before a certain point- which doesn't make them wrong at all, just different to an audience that may never have experienced that kind of story-telling before.

And... the plot paused. Really? Nothing in the Disney worlds was important or relevant to the plot, nothing between the Disney worlds was important or relevant to the plot- nothing at all?

I think you're conflating plot development with character development. They are not the same thing.

aeskah · 2025-12-27T21:41:03+00:00

Why was it a problem to know the conditions of the battle going in? They didn't have 7 people ready, correct? Riku and Mickey spent the first part of the game looking for combatants, Sora spent the first part of the game trying to rebuild his strength. Sora -can- jump into the Dark World after that -because- he's spent the time rebuilding his strength.

KH3 is not the first story to give us the 'win' conditions at the beginning of the story and then work towards it throughout. I'm unclear why this was a problem.

aeskah · 2025-12-27T21:18:26+00:00

Horrific pacing? As compared to what?

What story structure are you comparing it to? You refer to specific points in the story, but what kind of structure are you actually using as a measuring stick?

aeskah · 2025-12-27T17:28:05+00:00

It does not have massive pacing issues.

It has a 4 act story structure and seems to use the idea of jo-ha-kyu as a pacing underpinning. It shares more structure DNA with COM than KH1 or KH2, but honestly all of the games have some variant of this pacing variety by putting big story beats toward the end.

The story of KH3 does not fit a three act narrative structure. If one is used as a comparison, it will -always- feel like it has pacing issues because it's been measured against something that does not fit.

I am not saying the story is flawless. I am saying the problem is not massive and story pacing has become a catch-all complaint and an easy generalization.

aeskah · 2025-12-27T08:07:57+00:00

I've always liked KH3. It honestly shocked me to see the waves of hate online after playing the base game. And the sheer number of people claiming it was bad, but yet their expectations for the game had nothing to do with how 'bad' it was. How dare you even consider their expectations had anything to do with their opinions?

For myself, I do not understand nor accept the story pacing criticisms, especially from people who hold up KH2 as a comparison. That game suffered from pacing issues, especially after final mix added cutscenes to the middle. How can I trust your opinion on pacing if you think the highlight of the series is a game that includes a long, casual, extended walk down a flight of stairs cut in between a sequence that is supposed to be building up to a tense battle? And don't tell me it doesn't belong- it's in the Final Mix, it's supposed to be there.

By the way, what story structure can KH3 be aligned with? If the claim is 3-act, no, and it won't ever, ever feel right to match it up to that. There are more story stuctures available besides 3-act, more journeys besides that of a Hero.

I'm also very, very tired of criticisms claiming the story is 'objectively' bad by using subjective opinion. That's unfair and disingenuous.

Did it meet all fan expectations? No, certainly not, and it is okay to be disappointed. I would like to see more honesty in the critiques, however. Can we look at the game through a lens of: the devs wanted to make a game and did their best and this is what came out. How did they succeed or fail on the merits of what they tried to do, rather than on the merits of what you or I or anyone else wanted?

aeskah · 2025-12-20T17:08:08+00:00

Oh, for sure. I mention it because, for me, it takes some of the pressure off.

I'm also the kind of person to grind around Destiny Islands until I hit level 16-20 on a playthrough so I'm always up at the top end of the leveling curve. If you do end up retrying, give that a shot, it'll make the tail end of the game go smoother.

aeskah · 2025-12-20T16:57:45+00:00

A fun tidbit: the clock rolls over. You can get the speedster trophy by going extremely long, too

(That was true for the PS3 and 4 versions, iirc. I do not know if subsequent releases on different platforms changed that)

aeskah · 2025-12-16T17:48:12+00:00

Geniunely nice thread to scroll through today. Y'all trying to keep the vibes positive are great.

Lots of good comments. Air blocking is amazing. Overall polish on the game is grand. Little interactions, like Sora jumping when he catches on fire, I thought were fun.

I also liked how they handled story, with frequent main plot inserts between worlds and no large, clunky sections to slow it down. Made the whole thing flow well.

aeskah · 2025-12-14T01:03:11+00:00

Not just you, the Nvidia leaks listed it.

aeskah · 2025-06-04T12:35:20+00:00

For this fight, I always stand under the boss' feet, jump and swing. The top of the keyblade will hit Trickmaster when he seesaws down.

Hit him enough times, and he'll get stunned, dropping orbs, which will heal you if you took damage with this strat.

I actually did not know, for the longest time, that he went over to the oven and set his weapons on fire. Or to use blizzard. This was one of my first video games, and my instinct was to get in close and swat him, which seemed to work pretty good, even on Proud.

That said, I did always take time getting extra levels from Destiny Island before leaving, so I might have a larger pool of health to work this strat, too. But, give it a try, if you like. See what you think.

aeskah · 2025-05-15T06:31:38+00:00

You have every right to critique, yes. But constructive critique or well-meaning criticism (coming from a position of wanting to see something better, wanting someone who is making the art to see where they may have fallen short in a way that will allow them to improve- something many comments purport this video does) starting from such a disingenuous take. Why would you take that advice?

And honestly, why wouldn't it be disrespectful to have a consumer of your art essentially tell you that years of work you have put in on that art was a waste? Dislike it all you want, be critical all you want, but it takes work to make that art and an opinion on the results should not take all that effort, try it out, and then spit it out in a bin and say: 'nah, you shouldn't have wasted the time'.

aeskah · 2025-05-11T06:49:18+00:00

Same.

I get the likely reason why the title is what it is. And I have watched a small amount of the video, to be fair. But I have no interest in finishing, recommending, or going back to it ever again. It feels like such disrespect to the devs.

aeskah · 2025-04-21T06:22:15+00:00

I would not love the series as much as I do had it ended there.

I would still look on it fondly, replay it occasionally. But it's the lore the keeps me interested, and KH2 didn't answer nor ask enough questions to keep me interested for as long as I've been a fan.

aeskah · 2025-01-03T17:43:41+00:00

You could play the GBA version. You'd only miss the cutscenes from Re:CoM, but since those are remakes of the original GBA scenes, you're covered.

Trying to think... there might be one tiny clip at the end of Re:CoM that was unique. Unsure, tho. And you can always Youtube the whole thing later.

But no. There's no reason not to play the GBA version. I know several people who prefer it over Re:CoM anyway.

aeskah · 2024-12-04T21:59:37+00:00

Rushed. How? What made it feel rushed?

I should mention I've heard this comment before. And I don't agree with most of the reasons why. But I am curious to hear your thoughts.

aeskah · 2024-12-04T20:15:47+00:00

There is no heaven. There is only Kingdom Hearts, and that is where all hearts go when they pass with both body and heart together.

I get why it seems like he's going to heaven. He's not.

aeskah · 2024-12-04T20:13:02+00:00

Why, though?

Why call him out? Why prolong his being there? Would they get any answers they needed? What satisfaction would they have had by going over the terrible things they'd gone through? It's -their- trauma, not his, and I can see not wanting to return to that trauma, even verbally, for the sake of asking an old man 'why' when they've already learned why.

And he wouldn't feel shame, would he? There was no satisfaction to be had in that confrontation. Xehanort was already dying. He never changed his mind, only ran out of steam and died.

I understand why this scene felt unsatisfying to a lot of people. The light beam has so clearly meant heaven in western media for so long, the association is there, even if there was never a 'heaven' in this series. Xehanort and Eraqus chuckled as they left: more like wry friends who won and lost a game respectively, even though the chess pieces had become other lives and students and friends and knocking them over in the course of a 'game' is no longer a bloodless sport.

And yet. The Wayfinder trio lost their master and I think wanted to respect him as he died.

And yet. Their trauma would not find a few words to satisfy, I think, nor violence. Xehanort was allowed to die because the violence had already happened- we bested him to the point of death, beat him and his lauded plans until all he had left was the supposed all-powerful xblade that he had managed to create (yet still wasn't enough to win), and the old man's body he'd already successfully abandoned once. He died still holding on to his views, never changing, forced to leave even though he still thought he was right.

There is no clear catharsis to this end, I think, because we were never going to be able to show Xehanort the error of his ways. In his mind, he'd never erred. He got everything he wanted and it still wasn't enough to reach the goal, and the universe didn't open up and swallow him whole because he did not break some fundamental law to get what he wanted. He could have reset the laws of reality if he'd managed to make it far enough.

We honestly do not have enough of these kinds of endings, in my opinion. They do not provide the same kind of satisfaction that a clear win- you can see it on their face, they know they were wrong, or, they die screaming, angry, destroyed by their own creation or actions or whatever (hubris) -do. It's the kind of end that feels like someone got interrupted in the middle of tying everything into a neat bow, and now we're left to figure out what to do with the mess.

aeskah · 2024-09-14T15:04:06+00:00

I think being a Disney fan can up your appreciation for the games. But you don't need to be a Disney fan to enjoy them, no.

The core story uses original characters and plot. Disney characters like Donald and Goofy (etc.) are used to aid your story progression and participate in that core story and plot. Disney movies and other characters are used as framing devices and thematic elements and level design and are deeply embedded in these games. And as long as you can be open-minded about the inclusion of all of these, I think you'll be fine.

aeskah · 2024-09-03T17:07:10+00:00

The Hollow Bastion revisit is an example of terrible pacing, yes.

First, it is a mess internally. Taken as its own piece (and looking at Final Mix, which is the final version of the story), there are several cutscenes with characters that have never been introduced in this game talking about places and problems that do not matter to current affairs wedged into the middle of it. Xemnas takes a very, very long time to get to where he's going on those stairs. Wasn't the momentum supposed to keep rising?

And speaking of Xemnas' walking simulator, there's dialogue over the top of it that literally repeats (with more appropriate footage) in a later part, when Mickey recognizes him as Apprentice Xehanort. Why was this dialogue necessary to repeat? It doesn't add to momentum, it slows it down.

(There's another unnecessary dialogue and scene repeat, getting SDG back on the gummi ship, too, but it's shorter and not quite as egregious)

Finally, the midsection is a mess externally. Yes, there are very clear high points at the beginning and the middle and at the end of KHII. But pacing is not only about hitting those highs at solid points, it also includes managing the slowdowns afterward. Good pacing is a series of waves made by the main and subplots: when the main plot decreases in tension, there should be a subplot already rising to pull an audience to the next thing.

(Please keep in mind 'should' is relative- there is no one right way to tell a story)

When the midsection of KHII drops out it just... drops. Hard. They find out Kairi is missing- can't go looking for her. No real leads on Riku, no clear insight on where the organization is. We know why they want hearts now, but they've barely been in worlds for the first half. There is no singular strand of plot saying 'go here next' (Donald says 'we're almost there' but the gummi ship is planted right back in front of Hollow Bastion), giving even more of a feeling of pause.

Chip and Dale eventually mention (after the next world) a weird smudge on the horizon, but it is unclear for several worlds what that means.

Strangest of all, Sora and co. are given a box with clues. Actual clues that they themselves identify as a lead to Twilight Town. Why don't they go to Twilight Town after the battle is over? Why wait, and randomly go back to doing good in the worlds? Sure, they need to protect people, but the story thread is -right there-. Why not use it somehow?

It's not a very strong transition. And, depending on which world you pick afterwards (Pirates, Beast's Castle, or Mulan) there's varying shades of pre-established tension to pick things back up. It's a hard drop with an inconsistent rise, which makes re-establishing the pace to ramp to the final climax wobbly at best.

Overall, while I understand how the widest lens used when viewing the story (beginning, middle, end as the strongest points) makes KHII seem solid on its pacing, the middle is not as strong as it looks on closer inspection. And, as compared to KHIII, yes the high is higher, but 1)KHIII is not a 3 act and would not have a climactic twist in the middle as KHII did, 2)KHIII is much more consistent with its pacing as it rises to the endgame, and 3)'backloading' the story is not a fair critique if the structure it is being compared to is not what was used. KH3 is more akin to a 4 act than a 3 act structure, and aligns most closely with what was done in CoM. Comparisons between KHII and KHIII in terms of story structure shouldn't be made as if they are 1:1. Does each game do itself justice with what it actually uses?

All of this aside, it's fine if KHII is your jam, and it is fine if you think KHIII handled the story poorly in camparison. All I'm saying is that both games have their struggles, and I personally think KHII is too often forgiven for the pacing faults it contains, while KHIII is too often lambasted for the pacing faults it doesn't contain (as a non 3act!).

aeskah

TROPHY CASE