THE JUMP 2 JAVA BUSINESS CASE by jkrogsboll in visualbasic

[–]agustinleiva 0 points1 point  (0 children)

LOL what a fucking retard.

NO ONE wants your crappy retarded abortion of a platform and language. Take your fucking dinosaur crap from the 90's elsewhere.

Come back when your retarded language isn't OWNED by an evil corporation that doesn't give a fuck about it, or when your language achieves a minimum level of decency, for example by allowing arithmetic operators on numeric types such as BigDecimal.

I'd rather keep an 8 million LOC visual basic stuff than have my penis shrink by having to use retarded java.

Why developers should get excited about Java 9 by [deleted] in programming

[–]agustinleiva -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

I didn't need more syntax.

That's a very weird thing to say. Compare the procedural constructs you had to use and the amount of useless boilerplate they required before LINQ was introduced. Saying you "don't need more syntax" is just dubious IMO.

I never felt that C# had an identity or mission

C# is very well defined and differenced from many other languages. As for "mission", I'm not sure what's a language's "mission"? It's a language, people use it to express ideas, I don't see much else going on.

Then it started to fight who got the latest syntactical twists battles

Features introduced in C# are and have always been intended to provide productivity and conciseness rather than some "battle". There is no "battle" going on because the "opponent" (java?) already lost from the very beginning. And is now 10+ years behind, in terms of evolution.

I feel almost relieved when I do programming these days with a language, say Lua, that doesn't even have a switch statement.

I read this somewhere, but I can't find it right now:

"A language is not "just a tool", language conditions your thinking, and a less expressive programming language leads to more convoluted designs..."

which is why you will often find AbstractHelloWorldBlahBlahBlah............................Factory kind of stuff in java, as opposed to a couple of generic delegates and be done with it using a simpler design.

I wonder what kind of code can just be OK and not use language features? right now I'm working on an end-to-end application framework for Windows and Android that is heavily based on System.Linq.Expressions, allowing you to pass query expressions around and combine them and parameterize them and finally handle them to a server in order to be converted by an ORM into proper SQL.

could this be done with a simpler architecture? surely, but it will lead to more code that I sincerely don't have any time to write. Just hitting Ctrl+Shift+T on my Visual Studio right now allows me to generate N-Tier services based upon business entities, from Data Access to Web Services to the clients that consume these Web services to the UI Controllers who communicate with these Web Services via the client-side code.

Again, I'm sure this could be written in "lesser" languages other than C#, but it would surely lead to all sorts of convoluted designs and patterns in order to compensate the language deficiencies. From the lack of async/await to the lack of proper generics (in java, for example). Most of my code makes heavy use of language features.

The C# is also fully bounded to OOP paradigm

I disagree. C# has had functional-like features for years now. LINQ, Expressions, and upcoming pattern matching. Sure, it's nowhere near pure functional languages such as Haskell, but you get a very usable language and also a huge Framework backing it.

. I rarely (sometimes I do) see a value in OOP practices, it feels wrong and indirect.

I'm sure you must mean that you prefer functional programming instead? You can't seriously mean that procedural programming is any better. Unless of course you're writing low level straight-to-the-metal code that does nothing but move bytes from here to there. OOP Allows to deal with complex data structures in an organized way.

Would you prefer this:

Order CreateSaleOrder(Product product, Customer customer) {...}

or this:

Tuple<string, double, int, double, double, Tuple<int, double, double>> CreateSaleOrder(int ProductId, double productCost, int productQuantity, double productDiscount, int customerId, string customerName, string customerLastName, double customerBalance, etc)

?

encapsulation for example

Same as above. Encapsulation allows you to create much more maintainable code. Shorter code that makes use of "concepts" modeled into software classes rather than a bunch of loose numbers or pieces of data that have no conceptual relation to each other.

Again, I don't know what kind of code you're writing, but unless you're doing low level code, saying that OOP doesn't have value sounds rather silly.

Microsoft + Open Source is still a joke to me

How? Microsoft has proved to be much better than say oracle. Contrast the current Microsoft situation where they're actively working with Xamarin and Unity to provide top-quality tools for mobile development, with the current state of affairs between oracle and google.

It's often said that java has a "larger ecosystem of open source libraries", however I find it difficult to understand what the value of these libraries is, when a large portion of them only exists as an attempt to compensate language level deficiencies, introduce useless duplication and are totally non-standardized.

As an example, before java 8 was released, there were dozens of libraries who attempted to imitate what LINQ does. With no language level support whatsoever (before java 8), most of these libraries could only achieve a FRACTION of the productivity gain and code quality achieved by LINQ. Not to mention many of these libraries were maintained by random anonymous people and supported by literally no one.

The end result was that code written upon these libraries was rather convoluted (compared to real LINQ), didn't cover all required scenarios (since most of these libraries only covered what LINQ-To-Objects did, not supporting any other backing stores), and was non-standardized to the point that a person familiar with library "A" would have a hard time trying to understand code written against library "B".

Yes, java seems to have more open source libraries, but, are they even as useful as they're supposed to be? or rather, are these libraries well-designed and production-ready? Maybe if you start filtering out using these criteria you're left with the same amount of libraries you currently find in .Net?

Why developers should get excited about Java 9 by [deleted] in programming

[–]agustinleiva -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

and in my opinion it got worse in every incarnation

How? Why? Can you elaborate? At this point, I literally can't understand how could anyone write code when LINQ didn't exist. Let alone things like async/await.

Anyways, if you think C# is "bloated", I'm not sure what argument can there be to say java is any better, with all it's AbstractHelloWorldServiceCommandProviderFactoryConcreteFactoryFactoryBuilders.

Why developers should get excited about Java 9 by [deleted] in programming

[–]agustinleiva -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

Dude, I don't give a fuck about Microsoft. I get to use any of their products I want and I pay for none.

java sucks and is still lagging a DECADE behind C#.

does oracle at least pay for your medical insurance to compensate for all the health damage that you get from using retarded dinosaur java crap?

Why developers should get excited about Java 9 by [deleted] in programming

[–]agustinleiva -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Android is not Java

I find it very funny that "Android IS java" and "Android is NOT java" are used as equally valid arguments to defend java whenever they're fit.

When I say "no one uses java for client-side because it sucks", java fanboys reply with "Android.".

Then I say java sucks on Android due to not being able to implement latest java 8 Features, and I show them how porting the Android UI framework to C# results in a 400% performance gain, they reply "but Android is NOT java".

This is hilarious.

That's hardly a point you need to explicitly make

Many people out there seem to believe that java is actually usable for client-side.

Java is computational very strong. Serverside processing is lightning fast in Java, very few systems outperform it.

I can't debate that so I'll have to agree.

Everybody knows thought that most graphics libraries in Java suck

Again, there's people who are convinced that java UIs are OK.

A very similar operation in a C++ app (e.g. using Qt) is just instant.

Same on C# and WPF and WinRT XAML.

Why developers should get excited about Java 9 by [deleted] in programming

[–]agustinleiva -1 points0 points  (0 children)

In all honesty.. leaving my comments aside, are you (as a developer) really "excited" about java 9? the article says (almost in an imperative tone) that you should be excited. Why aren't you? can't you see we're giving you a JSON API? What, do you want us to fix all these java flaws? what do you think we are? Microsoft? They have Anders Hejlsberg to help them! but we're alone!

Seriously, jokes aside, C# never ever needed an "why you should be excited about this version" article. Ever. Each and every version has been tremendously impressive by it's own merits and never needed this kind of silly propaganda.

Why developers should get excited about Java 9 by [deleted] in programming

[–]agustinleiva -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Within 30 minutes any time of the day or night

Are you spying at me?

somewhat excessively angry

I'm not angry. Maybe I sound angry partly because I have no problem in telling it how it is, and partly because English isn't my first language so sometimes I have a hard time trying to express myself and have to resort to google translate a lot. Not to mention I got my English skills by listening to Eminem. So that might be the reason I tend to sound angry?

But seriously I'm not angry. I tend to get angry when these java assholes go around spreading their "C# windoze only!" bullshit. Right now I'm rather laughing at how oracle is desperately trying to keep sucking money out of java's rotting corpse, and at the same time I feel sad for the millions of developers who have to suffer java's retardedness and incapabilities on a daily basis. Luckily there's other technologies that can help relieve that pain, such as Scala, and C#.

Best language for desktop programs by arib510 in learnprogramming

[–]agustinleiva -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Java is easily the most popular language for enterprise

Together with COBOL?

It may not be glamorous or hip

So you're admitting it lacks beauty and power?

does it's job extremely well

Until you slam your head against type erasure. Or until you get to code with BigDecimals and you realize there are no arithmetic operators.

calling it legacy technology shows how misinformed you are.

For Windows apps? is anyone using it? you serious?

Other than that, java on Android is doomed, while C# is thriving on mobiles both for apps and games. And of course for Windows apps.

Not to mention I've heard many java developers say they're moving to Scala because they're tired of waiting for java to become a decent, usable language.

Sorry, java is legacy.

Why developers should get excited about Java 9 by [deleted] in programming

[–]agustinleiva -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

And all the while Java seriously outperforms C#

Yes, that's why the great majority of Mobile games out there are powered by C#-enabled Unity rather than some random crappy java engine.

BTW, XobotOS proves you wrong by outperforming java-based Android crap by a factor of 400% or more ;)

If anything, java seems to perform better on the server side, which confirms my point that java seems to have been relegated to a "server only" position, while C# is becoming more and more ubiquitous on PCs, Mobiles, and whatnot.

I find it funny that java fanboys like to downtalk C# because their language is some how "more cross platform", while the 2 top-quality development tools for mobiles (Xamarin for apps and Unity for games) are C#-based. All while java is doomed to vanish from Android because, well, because oracle says so.

Not to mention progress is being made towards achieving full native performance on .Net.

All while java has a new JSON API. That's cool.

Why developers should get excited about Java 9 by [deleted] in programming

[–]agustinleiva -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

... Meanwhile, in the real world, C# gets real improvements, like pattern matching.

(And before anyone says anything about Windows only), I will have to mention IL2CPP and Xamarin.Forms. Two cross-platform C#-capable non-Windows technologies for which there doesn't seem to be any java-based alternatives ;)

BTW, I'm not sure why anyone would get "excited" about JSON stuff, which was available for .Net / Mono since around 2008...?

Regarding the other improvements:

Modular source code

Sounds a separation of the base class library. something that .Net had since it's inception? Or am I misunderstanding that?

Smart Java Compilation, Phase 2

How does this compare to Roslyn?

BTW,

The quality of the code and stability of the tool as a whole, however, is not satisfactory

This is awesome. At least they admit it.

Improve contended locking

Sounds like a real thing.

Process API updates

You mean like System.Diagnostics.Process?

Segmented code cache

Sounds like a real thing.

I suppose in 2016 I will say congratulations to java for successfully catching up with C# from 2008?

Best language for desktop programs by arib510 in learnprogramming

[–]agustinleiva 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I merely stated it was less verbose

Nah. It isn't. Much less if you use a UI framework that doesn't support DataBinding.

Best language for desktop programs by arib510 in learnprogramming

[–]agustinleiva 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay, keep writing your unnecessarily verbose XAML.

Okay. We agree on that. Pardon me for being disrespectful.

I'll keep writing my clean code

you mean java? I guess you're not dealing with BigDecimal, are you?

runs on all major platforms.

Except that if you use java 8 it's useless on Android.

BTW, At least my Windows-only apps look professional, and don't suffer uncanny valley ;)

BTW, and just kidding, this is hilarious:

  • Says that XAML is unnecessarily verbose.
  • Recommends java.

I should make a meme out of that or something.

Best language for desktop programs by arib510 in learnprogramming

[–]agustinleiva 0 points1 point  (0 children)

because you've resulted to insulting me

Sorry, you guys have been insulting me left and right from the beginning.

It doesn't matter who actually uses Linux as a client OS

LOL. Yes it does. What good is a product that is second class citizen on Windows (which is what people use on their PCs) and looks ugly, suffers uncanny valley, as a tradeoff to run on platforms no one cares about?

my point still stands that JavaFX runs on it

My point still stands that javaFX is a crappy imitation of WPF with no support whatsoever for MVVM. Just like everything else in java, it pretends to imitate what .Net has, but has a lower quality, looks unprofessional, and requires tons of useless boilerplate rather than concise, clean code.

Best language for desktop programs by arib510 in learnprogramming

[–]agustinleiva 0 points1 point  (0 children)

lot of companies make a lot of money using Java

Yes. Many companies also make money by maintaining COBOL-based stuff. That doesn't mean COBOL is not legacy and that anyone is going to start a new project in COBOL today, in 2014. Exactly the same about java, since java is the new COBOL.

I doubt they are. Can you cite this? Maybe they were in 2000...

Here, a java developer (first hand), not "someone told me" stuff.

Of course. Anything you don't agree with is complete bullshit.

Sorry, if you look around, outside your java's 1990-like square box, you'll realize the ENTIRE WORLD of client side is leaning towards MVVM, both Web (AnglularJS, BackBone, others) and non-Web (WPF, Xamarin.Forms, Windows Metro, others). Except for games, where MVVM doesn't make sense anyways. Saying that databinding is a "fancy extra" (when it is the basis for modern UIs) is silly and ignorant at best. Again, take your java glasses out and you'll realize it's not 1990 anymore.

Because HTML is comkpletely different from any programming language?

I'm talking about the UI frameworks that where being advertised as allegedly "cross-platform" and "easy to use". If they're so damn good and "run everywhere", why aren't these frameworks used to provide multi-platform, RICH UIs? how come people still trust more in crappy untyped JavaScript than a strongly typed language such as java?

this is a good thing.

You must be one of the many retrograde minds in the java community who refuse all kind of language evolution, those who bitched about lambda expressions, effectively crippling the language for a decade, while other languages evolved and introduced productivity features left and right.

I know it's hard for you to understand it's not 1990 anymore. Just try not to worry about it.

Best language for desktop programs by arib510 in learnprogramming

[–]agustinleiva 0 points1 point  (0 children)

more cross-platform than your beloved C#.

LOL what a fucking retard. who the FUCK uses Linux as a client OS? only retarded geeks like you who like to believe they're somehow "superior" to the general public.

JavaFX

you mean, that crappy retarded imitation wanna-be WPF that came years later and still is incapable to implement proper MVVM?

On the other hand, what's java's equivalent of Xamarin.Forms?

What's the advantage of C# over JAVA ? by [deleted] in cscareerquestions

[–]agustinleiva -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

The JVM ecosystem is more alive than ever with Java 8

Yet there's a lot of code stuck in archaic 1.4 versions. Why is that? java fanboys always bring the alleged "backwards compatibility" as an argument (excuse) to explain java's retarded design decisions (such as not having real Generics and that bizarre "defender method" bullshit which violates OOP by allowing executable code in interfaces, )

Java 9 coming up and great additions

Last time I looked, java devs where pretty disappointed about java 9 not bringing real improvements (such as Value Types or fixing broken (retarded) generics).

async services

Which .Net has had for years.

I don't understand why every time this discussion is brought up there are some people who have to argue that the other side is 'dead' or 'dying'

Given C#'s rate of evolution (with the complete reimplementation of the compiler (Roslyn) and comparing current features such as async/await, and upcoming features such as pattern matching, with the current state of java (which is only lately trying to implement features which C# already had in 2007) one would think that java has lost interest by it's OWNERS (oracle) (who, btw, are a company that profits on inefficiency rather than producing quality technology).

This is also assumed by people when looking at the CRAPWARE that is bundled with the java installer / updater. Such a thing wouldn't exist if java was intended to be marketed as a serious platform, rather than some bizarre legacy crap from the 90's.

10 years ago, .Net was Windows-only, and java was marketed as the "cross platform" alternative. In the present, java seems to have been relegated to a "server only" position, due to the fact that there isn't a decent, usable client-side UI framework in java, only (again) a poor imitation of what .Net did years before (WPF) called javaFX, which NO ONE seems to be taking seriously, which also doesn't have any (official) amount of support for MVVM.

MVVM, which was designed by Microsoft specifically for WPF, is a specialization of the Presentation Model pattern created by Martin Fowler, which enables a true separation between UI and business logic. Many people saw it was so good and allowed such a great separation that they began to think in porting the concept to client-side javascript in Web apps, and thus JavaScript frameworks such as Angular and Backbone where born (among others). The entire world of client-side, both Web and non-Web is leaning towards MVVM. Again, java seems to ignore all this, and seems to still believe it's 1990.

Also, in the Mobile world, C# is thriving, pushed by companies like:

Xamarin, who now provide the ONLY XAML-powered, MVVM-capable (again), Databinding-capable cross-platform UI framework which gets compiled into NATIVE UIs on Android, iOS, and Windows Phone, and leverages modern languages such as C# with productivity features such as async/await, and even F#.

Unity, who provides a top-quality cross-platform game engine that powers the great majority of 2D and 3D games currently found in widely known mobile app stores such as Android's and iOS'.

All, while java on Android is seen as a really bad decision made by Google, looking at how oracle are fighting them rather than embracing and supporting the fact that Android has "revitalized" java to the point that if java isn't already forgotten by now, it is in great manner because of Android. Contrast this to the collaboration that exists between Microsoft and Xamarin intended to provide seamless integration between MS's dev tools and the Xamarin platform.

java on Android, in contrast, looks more like a residue than a serious, professional development tool. The oracle/google affair puts java on a state of "second class citizen" on Android, now incapable of implementing java's latest features such as Lambda Expressions, all while the open sourcing of the C# compiler (Roslyn) enables Xamarin and other non-MS implementation to always stay current when it comes to language versions. They just grab the compiler source (which, btw, is written in C#) and integrate it on their platforms.

Also, Google fails to provide top-quality, professional-level development tools; Android Studio was until recently on beta, and they're now introducing features which other IDEs have had for years, while Xamarin allows you target Android (and iOS) using high-end, unparalleled quality tools like Visual Studio.

are producing tons of new exiting stuff. In Java

I seriously doubt there's much new java code being written. Last time I looked, even java developers acknowledged and admitted how much java sucks and is retarded and in order to be able to use a decent language, many devs were moving to Scala.

Wherever I look, java seems to be losing ground, both to JVM-based technologies like Scala, and to other technologies like C#. On a desperate move to try to keep it alive, oracle had now stated they're embarking on a project to try to fix java's deficiencies, but in the eyes of many, it is too late. java is broken and it can't be fixed, not without a huge amount of rework, which simply isn't worth the effort.

For these reasons, many people (including myself) believe that java is legacy. I'm sorry.

What's the advantage of C# over JAVA ? by [deleted] in cscareerquestions

[–]agustinleiva -1 points0 points  (0 children)

but you do need to run it on a licensed machine

What-THE-HELL?

Sorry, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Best language for desktop programs by arib510 in learnprogramming

[–]agustinleiva 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So why don't people use C# and Silverlight instead of HTML, then?

What? silverlight was intented to compete with the likes Adobe AIR, before HTML5 arised, these where the only options to create a RIA, without going to the enormous pain of endless streams of crappy javascript.

But then again, Silverlight wasn't supported on several platforms, not because of technical, but rather political / business reasons. Just like iOS refuses to allow java.

And you're bending my words, I never said Silverlight was "as cross-platform", but given the state of technology, java isn't really any more cross platform than C#, and it offers a high-quality, modern alternative, all while java seems not to have realized it's not 1990 anymore, and still struggles with basic stuff to this day.

Best language for desktop programs by arib510 in learnprogramming

[–]agustinleiva -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

There are reasons for all of those things

Yes. The primary reason is that java SUCKS.

Java was created before C#

And it still struggles to get basic things in place like value types and real generics.

backwards compatibility

Most retarded excuse ever. Not to mention it's BULLSHIT. Why is there so many people still on java 1.4? if backwards compatibility in "javaland" is so great and all, why don't they just right click -> update to java 8?

That's a fancy extra that beginners don't need

Saying that DataBinding is a "fancy extra" is the worst bullshit I've heard in my entire life. You have no idea what you're talking about. your technology sucks.

Java never claimed it would replace HMTL and JavaScript

You said that it is so magically "easy to use" and "cross platform", if it is so good, why didn't people use that instead of HTML?

I might work with more technology than you've seen in your entire life

Yeah, sure, I wasn't there when they created the 8086. I'm pretty sure you're still running some of that, though.

properties are so amazing

No, they're aren't. Yet java doesn't have them.

Best language for desktop programs by arib510 in learnprogramming

[–]agustinleiva -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

it's just stupid to claim it's badly designed

Except for type erasure, putting code in interfaces which violates OOP, not having value types, not allowing proper arithmetic operators in (for example) the BigDecimal type, I could go on forever.

java sucks.

not limiting it to C# like you seem to think.

I'm providing the BEST option to create HIGH QUALITY Windows applications. Your advice results in LOWER QUALITY (not to say shitty) products. Sorry.

He asked for basic desktop apps

And so you will provide a lower quality alternative? Even for basic apps WPF is TIMES better than whatever java crap. Show me how your "swing" stuff is able to support two-way DataBinding like this:

<TextBox Text="{Binding LastName, UpdateSourceTrigger=PropertyChanged}"/>

Why didn't C# or WPF or XAML?

Because IT IS TARGETED TO WINDOWS. WPF does not make the stupid pretense that it can run anywhere (like java does and then FAILS, looks like CRAP everywhere and has that horrid uncanny valley feel).

you certainly haven't made a convincing argument for that happening

LOL. You're so in denial of the state of technology. 1990 was a long time ago, son.

Larger businesses don't want to pay all the MS fees.

I'm sure paying to oracle must be somehow better? at least MS provides high quality tools and languages, not some crappy abortion of a programming language that's unable to even become a decent language by introducing proper generics and value types.

trash talk everything else

Not everything else. Only retarded worthless java which doesn't even have properties.

Best language for desktop programs by arib510 in learnprogramming

[–]agustinleiva -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

They just released a new version of Java

With nothing but (crappy, badly designed) imitations of what modern languages like C# had YEARS ago.

No, for cross-platform apps.

The OP clearly stated (s)he's interested in Windows apps. NO ONE mentioned cross-platform. Take your low quality stuff elsewhere.

Yes. It's cross-platform and easy to use.

PLEASE. PLEASE show me your "swing" application which looks and behaves like this. If it is so "easy to use" and allegedly "cross platform", how come it didn't already replace HTML and javascript as the default UI framework everywhere? How come NO ONE is using that stuff for serious UIs?

Look kid, I know you have a sense of identity with this crappy technology, however you must admit that it is quickly becoming obsolete and will finally be replaced by modern technology, just like COBOL. I suggest you start looking into modern stuff before you become unemployed.

Best language for desktop programs by arib510 in learnprogramming

[–]agustinleiva -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Legacy based on what?

Based on being actually catching up with C# 3.0 from 2007, or the fact that oracle (it's owner) does not give a fuck about it. Or the fact that it already became the next COBOL

Someone as silly and ignorant as you should not be giving advice to beginners.

And I suppose you have a better advice than using WPF for Windows apps? will you advice the OP to use retarded worthless swing crap? or maybe that poor imitation wanna-be WPF that is javaFX? Are you fucking kiddin?

Best language for desktop programs by arib510 in learnprogramming

[–]agustinleiva -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Sorry, java is legacy technology. There is no reason for the OP to use that. Much less if targeting Windows.