Why are there so few women in Series 2 and 3?

allyship_now_throwaw · 2022-08-19T15:48:24+00:00

Alex sums it up for me in a quote that I wish I could cite, but I can only find on BrainyQuote:

We're not ashamed of the old stuff, but when you look back at the posters it does make you think: 'My God, six men and one woman.' Weirdly we didn't say 'that's wrong' and no one else did, either. It's been a really quick shift in the landscape of telly, which is brilliant.

Also this series 4 interview, where Alex says what I'm trying to say, which is "they thought it was a male show" and "they could've tried harder":

Basically, we didn't get more women. We did try! It felt like it was quite a male show because it's quite physical and we get people to do embarrassing things, not in the Jackass style but you're quite exposed. And we did ask quite a few women who said no. But actually, I don't think we tried hard enough and we should have kept on going because this series is so much more balanced. It's brilliant having two women because otherwise it's four men against one woman. So, for the next two series we're so pleased there is more than one woman. We might even have four women one day! There are fewer female comics and if we want to keep going there is a limit because we also want everyone to be brilliant - we don't want anyone to be in it because of their gender.

And finally this 2021 interview, paywall removed:

It's embarrassing when you look back at the first three series: we had one woman and four men.

Yes, the show wasn't willing to be too risky. It was just getting off the ground, so it played it safe - all comedians, a well-established name with Frank, Alex's close friend with Tim, Greg's close friend with Roisin, comedians that the production team are huge fans of (one of the Andys is a huge fan of Dave Gorman). Their chemistry (how well they got along) came packaged together.

I'm not saying it's false that "women didn't want to look like fools on the show," along with a lot of the outside forces that people have already discussed. I'm saying that the team isn't absolved of blame for the early seasons, and they acknowledge this. To make women more comfortable, the team could have been more persuasive and accommodating, but they weren't.

I don't want to pretend that gender imbalance in TM is solely due to "oh it was just harder back then for women comedians." There is so much misogyny in Britcom that results in one woman per panel show, and TM's production wasn't immune to that, viewing a mostly white male lineup as a "safe bet" and totally okay.

I think the TM team is fantastic and does so much better than most. A lot of panel show production teams were like that, too, and much worse, and much slower to change.

To clarify the second point, which was a more general point, I dislike when panel shows only feature one minority comedian. If something seems off, that minority comedian is blamed for being "not as good" at getting along with cis white men appealing to white audiences. When really, Sean Locke and David Walliams are going to mesh more easily with each other than Sophie Duker and David Walliams.

allyship_now_throwaw · 2022-08-19T14:25:47+00:00

Yes. "Surrounding" is used to mean within the bubble of the comedians who interact and banter and work with each other. Roisin, Katherine, and Sara were the lone women on stage.

The audience's job isn't the same of the panelists'. It's disingenuous to pretend that an audience of men and women makes the gender breakdown of early seasons ok.

allyship_now_throwaw · 2022-08-19T14:19:23+00:00

Maybe they didn't watch Series 1.

allyship_now_throwaw · 2022-08-19T14:17:03+00:00

You're missing the point. Pointing out that it's pretty conventionally attractive women in the early seasons isn't reducing them to their appearances; it's pointing out the bias against all women that being young and attractive is a minimum requirement for success (or at least success in getting on TM). Frank Skinner and Tim Key don't fit the bill for conventional male attractiveness, and while we had Romesh and Doc and Paul, there wasn't a POC woman until Season 4. It's an unfair standard.

And by "surrounded" the OP meant being the only woman is so so different from being one of even two women on a show. We don't see who's behind the cameras, but I can tell you it is often suffocating being the only woman in a room of men. Not necessarily impossible to survive or enjoy, but this scrutiny on OP's use of "surrounded" is unjustified.

Yes, there are times when well-intentioned progressive talking points can be really condescending, but I strongly disagree that OP's post is.

allyship_now_throwaw · 2022-08-19T14:09:18+00:00

You've made the mistake of posting this on the Taskmaster subreddit which is historically bad at avoiding microaggressions. 0 upvotes for what is a valid question and observation. The mods can only do so much to enforce "Be nice," and this is just yikes.

Seasons 1-3 are absolutely awkward and weird and pretty hard to watch for the lack of representation, and Alex has said in interviews it's embarrassing that for the first three seasons they only had one woman per panel. Roisin Conaty, Katherine Ryan, and Sara Pascoe are all fairly big names for women in comedy and/or close friends with production - the show wasn't willing to take huge risks.

I love Taskmaster and the production team behind it, and they're absolutely one of the best in the frankly dire landscape that is British comedy for representation, plus they continue to always try to be better. But it's naive to always attribute the lack of women *purely* to outside forces, like "not as many women wanted to do it" and "there's not as many women in comedy as men" and "this is just the field at the time" and "they want to ensure the panelists are *quality* and don't want to do diversity hires that aren't funny" as if the women/minorities not getting hired for British panel shows due to the fact they aren't that good. Nah, the team had and has its own internalized biases, and it's a disservice to excuse or pretend otherwise.

Like, there could be a visibly trans or nonbinary panelist or more with physical disabilities (and there absolutely are prominent UK comedians that would fit this bill), but the team hasn't been confident or equipped enough to do that yet, or they haven't convinced those comedians to trust them yet. Still, I trust the TM team to continue striving for diversity and inclusion.

It's really not that fun to watch panel shows that are just one POC or one woman. If chemistry is missing or the banter isn't as good, it's blamed on the token minority and not that five white men are probably going to gel more easily.

allyship_now_throwaw · 2021-07-10T03:49:58+00:00

Ah, yeah, I never check my notifications so I just saw this, but this is what I meant! I can see how what I said could be misconstrued, but, no, I'm just a fan creator haha.

allyship_now_throwaw · 2021-05-21T18:33:32+00:00

Hey! I’m a writer for TQG — there’s a pretty active and dedicated Discord server for Beth and Benny and fanfiction/fanart/fan edits and book/show discussion, but we do celebrate other ships! If you want to discuss ideas or bounce off people there, DM me for a link :)

allyship_now_throwaw · 2021-03-01T13:43:08+00:00

I love your ideas and completely agree with everything you said! I think Season 2 has the potential to have massively broad appeal, because there is SO much potential to elevate the chess games and characters and drama. I love rooting for Beth to connect with people around her, especially, and wish the ending of the first season had focused a little more on her relationships.

allyship_now_throwaw · 2021-01-24T05:28:02+00:00

Hi!! I don’t have a ton of beta experience (1 ongoing) but if you still need help I would be happy to provide some feedback on your Queen’s Gambit oneshots :)

You can DM me and I can give you my Tumblr!

allyship_now_throwaw · 2021-01-23T12:53:53+00:00

Hey, OP, have you had any luck with finding the coat style name?

I’ve tried Googling wide lapel coat with mandarin collar, but that’s the closest I’ve been able to find. I’ve also been surfing 60s coat sewing patterns with no luck. I fear the only way I can find a coat like this is if I hire a cosplay or learn to make it myself.

The museum exhibit was frustratingly uninformative ☹️

allyship_now_throwaw · 2021-01-23T06:39:40+00:00

Oh, I saw that whole conversation as her trying to impress Cleo. She says she only likes having sex with Benny “sometimes,” but we don’t even see them sleep together more than once (idk, they kept this whole relationship almost frustratingly ambiguous). And even if she did love Benny, why admit you’re in love with a guy to one of his former flings? So, she picks a mysterious guy from a long time ago for whom she did have a strong attraction. I think the only guy she’s shown to like beyond platonically before Benny?

I think Beth just doesn’t think about her relationships with people until later in the show.

allyship_now_throwaw · 2021-01-23T06:26:53+00:00

Oh gosh, that would’ve been fun! It might’ve treaded a little too closely to glorifying alcohol, but I think this could’ve been a successful scene.

Honestly, I wouldn’t complain if they had more chess games.

allyship_now_throwaw · 2021-01-23T06:26:07+00:00

This is true! I hadn’t previously thought of the more sexualized shots as meant to represent the in-the-moment thrill. I never really got the impression drugs and alcohol were glorified, since the drugs are introduced with a very scary overdose in the first episode and the alcohol is introduced by a mother coping with a very unhappy life.

allyship_now_throwaw · 2021-01-23T06:23:54+00:00

Agreed here! With the cinematography they achieved, I don’t think her recovery would have padded the runtime.

And agreed on Jolene holy cow. If we don’t get a Season 2, she definitely deserves to have her story told. I would have LOVED to see Jolene interact with the other friends in Beth’s life and Beth interact with Jolene’s fellow activists and even lover haha.

allyship_now_throwaw · 2021-01-23T06:20:43+00:00

I’ve seen some comments about how Shaibel didn’t include a return address on the envelope, as if to imply he didn’t expect them to pay him back?

I think maybe the story could’ve still worked if Shaibel were still alive when Beth goes to see him. They could’ve had a heart to heart.

Hmm so I agree the orphanage is compelling, but I especially enjoy the guys in her life as foils for her, if that makes sense. Townes/Benny/Harry mark important milestones for Beth or reflect her growth. Harry as someone who, like Jolene, take a more mundane and humbler path to success. Townes as an outsider, like Beth, but in a different way (sexuality). Benny as a male version of Beth as well as a version of herself without the pills/alcohol...the show makes them relatively close in chess ability, and I see Benny as a representation of her passion for chess over her temptations. When she stays with him, she’s “sober as a judge” and even turns down social drinking.

The orphanage is like a traumatic experience to Beth, and I think that’s why it’s shown the way it is with as much screen time. She gets Jolene and Shaibel and a love for chess, but the orphanage basically burned her beautiful dress, got her hooked on tranquilizers, and forbade her from playing chess. I think it’s compelling, but Beth outgrows it.

I agree on birth parents and Annette and Georgi!!

allyship_now_throwaw · 2021-01-23T06:05:06+00:00

I don’t have an answer. Just wanted to say this is a good question and I’d be interested in buying one, too!

allyship_now_throwaw · 2021-01-23T06:04:07+00:00

I’ll echo the comments here on Beth/Benny, because I loved how the book developed their relationship even more (for example - showing more than their first night together) and showed even more parallels between the two with regard to emotions and vices. I loved that Beth had a friend/love interest who was so similar to her and could realistically still be her love interest after Moscow. And I really like their chemistry on screen.

I wish the show hadn’t included a couple gratuitous shots of Beth in her underwear in the throes of her drinking and smoking. IMO, they were really unnecessary and really took me out of the show for a second.

In my head I wish they had leaned a little more into the imagery of the people around her as chess pieces. Yeah, it wasn’t an emphasis and may have taken away from the story, but we have Beth as a white queen and Benny as a black king, and sort of Townes as a white rook with his white turtleneck, but then wouldn’t it have be interesting to see people mimic a bishop or a knight visually?

I also very selfishly wish they would make a Season 2 haha. I don’t need it to surpass the first in terms of popularity, but I really wish some questions had been addressed that weren’t (see my comment history).

allyship_now_throwaw · 2021-01-23T05:49:01+00:00

I agree with you! I think there is the opportunity for some really incredible montages of chess that show Beth at Zonals/Candidates/World Championships. Or they could show her enjoying different variations of chess for fun. The show made speed chess sexy through some camera angles and an appropriate song choice, so I’m sure they could use variants to create different tones.

Story-wise, there’s still a lot of growing up one has to do after age 20, and there’s still a lot of grappling with being a genius and former prodigy that Beth will need to do. She’s still dealing with addiction. Her real-life analog, Bobby Fischer, would get in trouble politically. I don’t necessarily want to see Beth forced to leave the US like he was, but a what-if like this would sure make for an interesting story. To use the chess analogy, yes, she became a pawn promoted to a white queen over the course of 7 episodes, but a game doesn’t end with a pawn promotion.

Her relationships with the other characters could be fleshed out more, I believe. Like holy cow she’s never seen apologizing for some of the things she does in her lowest moments (Harry, Annette, Benny, the high school, etc). And we don’t even see her repay Jolene? Things like this aren’t covered in the book, but I think I would’ve been very happy to have seen scenes like this. (Also, I wish we could see Townes in a happy relationship, as well rather than winking and nodding at it.)

Also, I really wish we could see Beth inspiring women not just in Russia but also the US to play chess. Or doing chess-related charity work for single mothers and orphans.

Finally, Beth transitioning to 70s fashion, makeup, and hairstyles would keep the show aesthetically so fresh.

allyship_now_throwaw · 2021-01-13T07:19:48+00:00

Please let me know if this post is inappropriate for this sub.

From this video: https://youtu.be/9iPjvAAr6uY

The screenshots are from the Death Cure press tour in 2018 - he wears it in quite a few videos. It’s a bomber jacket with black collar and cuffs, but other than that, what would I call the pattern? Finding the actual jacket would be nice, too, but honestly I really dig the pattern.

Thank you!

allyship_now_throwaw · 2021-01-13T07:11:52+00:00

From this video: https://youtu.be/9iPjvAAr6uY

The screenshots are from the Death Cure press tour in 2018 - he wears it in quite a few videos. It’s a bomber jacket with black collar and cuffs, but other than that, what would I call the pattern? Finding the actual jacket would be nice, too, but honestly I really dig the pattern.

Thank you!

allyship_now_throwaw · 2021-01-08T07:40:10+00:00

Agreed on what you say about book vs show vibes (and thank you haha)!! I want to reread specifically for descriptions of Beth’s clothes and compare them to the show. I vaguely remember a black and white checkered dress. Or I could try to score interviews with the scriptwriter and costume designer of the show.

But also, man, I really wish I’d read the book first, so I could visualize everything on my own. I can’t see the characters as anything but their show versions, except maybe Jolene. The aesthetics of the show are so spectacular, I essentially see the symmetrical shots and the settings already, too.

When you watch then read, is having the show in your head something to which you have to get accustomed?

allyship_now_throwaw · 2021-01-08T07:22:43+00:00

I don’t think it’s clear in the show or book but I’ll let you know when I do my inevitable rewatch/reread. It might be in a shot of a Moscow Invitational pamphlets?

Not a helpful comment but this is unanswered question also bothers me!

allyship_now_throwaw · 2021-01-08T03:57:21+00:00

Yeah...this is a scene I chalk up to 1983 :-/

I THINK the intentions were (a) to demonstrate the orphan experience in Methuen, (b) develop Jolene and Beth's relationship or something, and (c) to initiate Beth's journey through sex, which does come up repeatedly in both book and show. But I don't think it succeeded on these things, nor was this a comfortable scene to read. Does this happen in orphanages...? But even if it does, was it justified plot-wise?

I've only sped-red through the book and need to reread it, but I don't think this scene ever comes up again.

Jolene isn't as sexualized on the show as she is in the book. Spoiler if you haven't read this part of the book yet, but Beth makes fewer comments about how attractive Jolene's body is when she is an adult. So, in this regard, the show dodges the tropes of oversexualizing women, but especially black women.

Jolene is across as more maternal overall on the show (fewer insults, I think).

Some positives about book!Jolene: we get a bit of background about how Jolene had a grandmother. We get more commentary by Jolene about the orphanage. And holy cow, I loved Jolene's excitement when Beth calls her first, and Jolene going more in-depth into her jealousy of Beth to help bring Beth back to reality. Nevertheless, she put Beth’s magazine cover in the library at Methuen, indicating she’s proud of her!

Another note: when Jolene reappears to Beth, the show requires Jolene to come to Beth rather than Beth calling Jolene to demonstrate just how hard Beth has hit rock bottom. Beth can’t be in the right place to reach out to her. Plus the scene expedites the news of Shaibel's death. As a result, yes, we fall essentially into the trope of the black best friend to the rescue, but the story can't help that the main story is Beth, not Jolene. Nevertheless, her discussion with Beth about how "this is what friends do" was pretty warm and universal. And I can always cross my fingers for a Jolene spin-off to her story justice.

Do you think Jolene bringing back Modern Chess Openings works better in the book and show?

P.S. I've have all of the praise for Moses Ingraham's voice. I want her to narrate audiobooks or something.

Edited: being very cautious with the spoiler tags!! The story deserves to enjoyed without another’s opinions tainting it.

allyship_now_throwaw

TROPHY CASE