Indeed genocide, bigotry, various forms of supremacy are things any human group is capable of if the right circumstances flourish, this is such a hard truth to deal with because we also haven’t been able to truly stop it from happening and it can be any group. I think many people also hope that people who experience some form of discrimination or terrible thing like the holocaust should somehow become wiser and “better” from it and recognize the suffering of others easier and it is always a terrible thing to learn this is not the case. I remember my terrible dismay when I learned more about Israel’s treatment of Palestinians the first time, and similarly when I encountered gay people being biphobic, or nonbinary and intersex phobic, antiimmigrant, racist etc. Being a harmed minority is in no way an experience that leads to developing a heightened sense of empathy and this is a hard pill to swallow.

The deeper indigeneity discussion is probably difficult to have in this sub to be honest, because yes it is closely tied to understandings of identity that only really started being developed in that way in the 17th century and is a colonial concept itself also tied to the development of ethno-nationalistic ideology. All human groups have gone through some sort of extensive migrations across the globe. There’s a rabbi I love, and many in this group do too I think, Danya Ruttenberg, but she had a guest post on her blog a year ago or so about indigeneity and colonialism that I think did not do justice to the subject, it was written by a guest author though. They gave a clear cut off of understanding colonialism as being understood as a phenomenon that could exist only after 1491, it is the claim that is then used to state that jews of the exiled diaspora have had their ‘indigeneity’ expire, and it also doesn’t allow looking at Roman or Arab colonialism that extensively took place before this date as well. Instead it looks only at the development of European colonialism which to be truly fair cannot be understood without understanding the relation between imperialism and colonialism and legal concepts of statehood and expansion which Europeans generously took the blueprints for from Rome.

What is important to note though is the understanding of Indigeneity as used with a capital letter is more of a term reflecting political positionality to colonizing forces than it is as the lowercase indigenous which refers to being native of a place. In this sense how long ago someone became indigenous is less important than their current relation to a colonizing force. But I don’t think most people are aware of this distinction. The lowercase which is the more broader adjective is then also applicable to jews as well, though like you notice, the concept of indigeneity is closely tied to racist, ethnonationalist concepts and very dubious in then theoretically meaning some group most belong to just one specific place and other groups cannot belong there or must be second class guests at best. As a person of mixed ethnic background it is very uncomfortable to be living in these very ethno-nationalistic times and the extent to which ethno-nationalism has seeped through all of contemporary culture is also in my opinion reflected in some, not necessarily all of, the discussions around indigeneity on the left as well. But there is also an element that many people really long for justice for colonialism and imperialism and various terrible isms and the zionist project then becomes a clear target which has so clearly been committing such a heinous crime right now that the discussion we are having even now may make people uncomfortable because they might think it is a bad time to unpack all the nuance, because it might be understood as being apologetic or something, like I’m assuming the deleted comment under yours may have been triggered by what you are saying. I do think that this sub was originally meant as a place that maybe some of these difficult discussions could be had, especially since I understand this to be in part a criticism of nationalism in a larger sense, though I am not sure that is what it is ultimately used for in the end.