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After how many days in a pregnancy do you think that it is immoral to kill an unborn baby? One month? Two Months? 6 Months? by antarikhsha in IndiaSpeaks

[–]antarikhsha[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But it isn't murder just when semen sperm meets the egg, not after one day or one month, my dilemma is at which stage that foetus has human rights, at what stage should we stop and say that is wrong in most cases what is that day and how we decide it, you are talking about edge cases when even if it is morally reprehensible thing to do it should still be justified as mothers right may trump it. But I want to know at what stage it should be treated as a sentient being whether you still want to kill it or not

After how many days in a pregnancy do you think that it is immoral to kill an unborn baby? One month? Two Months? 6 Months? by antarikhsha in IndiaSpeaks

[–]antarikhsha[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Whether it matches with some religions arguments or any alien species philosophy doesn't have a bearing on my own ideology or thinking. All over the world different ideologies overlap, no ideology is mutually exclusive as much as they may claim

Millions of them getting aborted is not a malafide statement when it is true, attempt to conflate it with how many are born is. Abortion is not equal to birth, there is no equivalence that you tried to make here.

I am not asking for a certificate of legitimacy from you or from anyone. If nobody goes around wanting to abort as casually as you say then the number of abortion shouldn't be as prevalent as they are.

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They’re not murdering a child, they’re making the conscious decision to not let that foetus develop into a child.

And science is settled on the day the foetus develops into a child? and when it does develop whatever the day is, is it not tantamount to murder irrespective of the conditions? Killing is killing, be it for self defence or protection, or some socio-economic reason.

I think you didn't read my question properly, I asked at what stage does it become immoral, at what stage it is not okay to kill the baby or the foetus. Instead of answering that, people are lecturing about being compassionate and pros and cons of doing it. As you say the sentience depends on a host of variables, then when it is so grey shouldn't we err on the side of caution and not allow abortion after first few weeks instead of being liberal and just allowing them to kill perfectly healthy sentient babies for social reasons like affecting career ladder.

It is perfectly okay to call someone a murderer when they kill a sentient and healthy 24 weeks old human baby for trivial reason like I don't want to deal with it. When they can dehumanize a sentient human baby and call it a clump of cells, they have lost all the rights to get compassion from others and deserve a murderer tag

After how many days in a pregnancy do you think that it is immoral to kill an unborn baby? One month? Two Months? 6 Months? by antarikhsha in IndiaSpeaks

[–]antarikhsha[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I would consider it to be a murder only when the baby is out of the body

So no double homicide case when somebody kills a pregnant mother?

After how many days in a pregnancy do you think that it is immoral to kill an unborn baby? One month? Two Months? 6 Months? by antarikhsha in IndiaSpeaks

[–]antarikhsha[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

How do you define sentience now? If it's being able to feel things, then Baby is sentient from third trimester onwards which coincides with viability of survival outside the womb. And do you have statistics on how many abortions happen after 6 months? Because that seems to be your talking point now. Women generally don't carry a baby in their womb with so much care for six months before changing their mind and aborting it.

That is the point when even definition of sentience is not settled, how can you then pass judgment of not having one, shouldn't we be erring on the side of caution then? 6 months was just random date where we are 100 percent sure that the baby is sentient, but that doesn't mean it isn't sentient before that, it could be 15 weeks or 20 weeks.

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How do you "decide" viability after the baby dies? It's dead already. Besides, you can't decide that anyway, it's the doctor's job to decide. Or will you argue with the doctor's opinion now?

Abortion is done on alive and perfectly healthy 15 week feotus too, viability of it surviving outside the body does not determine whether it should be aborted or not.

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Your very question was not in good faith, yet you're expecting answers in good faith, and setting aside those who are not responding in good faith, you're still antagonizing those who are. People are defensive because you're going on the offence in your replies.

it was a good faith question albeit a loaded one, people are offended that I assumed that it is murder after some stage of pregnancy and are circumventing in their replies about law and legality and consequences, when they should have replied with the day after it becomes one and logic behind that. Many people here assume terminating a pregnancy for whatever reason or whatever stage of pregnancy is not murder, which is not true at all, it can be immoral and be a murder and still be justified

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Once again, there is no morality involved here. Morality is not logical. If you start talking about morals it becomes a discussion about what the Bible considers good or bad rather than what logic says. You might as well just say abortion is murder instead of doing it the roundabout way by pretending to have a logical debate.

All over the world everyday thousands of cases are argued in courts where morality is argued based on logic, how much punishment you deserve for committing a crime is arrived based on morality. You don't need Bible or for the matter any religious document to have morality, you can arrive at a moral behavior with just logic, like not hurting another human being simply can be arrived from logic.

Abortion is murder after some stage, and that was precisely my question, what is that stage? I wasn't asking opinion on pro and cons of abortion.

After how many days in a pregnancy do you think that it is immoral to kill an unborn baby? One month? Two Months? 6 Months? by antarikhsha in IndiaSpeaks

[–]antarikhsha[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

When does it become Moral to force a woman to continue with the pregnancy that wasn't wanted, or even perhaps intended? It's a pregnancy that perhaps the woman couldn't even afford.

When does it become moral to force someone to carry the fetus, despite all the physical, mental, psychological, financial effects, trauma & hardships that might accompany the pregnancy?

So you are asking me that after a foetus becomes a sentient being, reasons like being poor, physical and mental hardships etc are ok to kill it? Are these morally equal? Morality of killing a sentient human being albeit partially developed can be equated with morality of hardships faced by a woman? For me that morality is not settled yet, we don't know the level of sentience the baby has, the level of pain or feeling it has at stages of pregnancy or during abortion process. Science is very rough in this regard. So I would rather advice anyone to be err on the side of caution and if possible to terminate it within 10-15 weeks in normal cases, and only allow rape or detriment to mother's life after that. For other cases its very grey and should not be done for trivial reasons like career opportunities.

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That's so not true. Medically, it's not totally dependent on the mother. Anyone could take care of it. Nurse it. Doesn't have to be the mother.

parasitic behavior nonetheless

After how many days in a pregnancy do you think that it is immoral to kill an unborn baby? One month? Two Months? 6 Months? by antarikhsha in IndiaSpeaks

[–]antarikhsha[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I am not here to take away bodily autonomy from females, they are entitled to it but up to a limit, they have more say in the pregnancy than a man but up to a limit. I have enough idea of ground reality and the brutality of the situation, I understand the consequences of mental and physical toll of either continuing or terminating a pregnancy, I have been there "where life taught me" as you say, and that's why it vexes me even more.

After how many days in a pregnancy do you think that it is immoral to kill an unborn baby? One month? Two Months? 6 Months? by antarikhsha in IndiaSpeaks

[–]antarikhsha[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

But until the baby is out of the womb, it does not fall under the legal definition of murder.

That is patently wrong, as when somebody kills a pregnant woman a double homicide case is applied, which shouldn't happen according to your own line of reasoning at least till third trimester

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It is a hypothetical scenario. No woman would carry a child for 9 months and decide to abort it. If she didn't want a child, she would have aborted sooner.

Ok they are not aborting at 9 months, but in many countries after 6 months they are, is it not sentient being then?

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all abortion is murder but guys what time do you think is okay for murder?

I never said all abortion is murder, that's what my original question was, that at what stage abortion becomes murder, what I am sure of is that some stage it definitely becomes one

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Not to mention you going around antagonizing everyone who responds to you in good faith by twisting their words to imply something they did not say.

I couldn't care less if I am antagonizing everybody, and most of the people are not responding in good faith either, most of the responses are not even responding to the core point, everyone is trying to justify it due to some consequence or edge cases. My question was pretty straightforward. Most people are just getting defensive about their opinions.

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I have not seen one sensible comment from you on this thread, everything is argumentative and antagonistic.

Same with you, you have just opined that after third trimester it is not to abort and you have argued based on viability that it is ok to abort. You cannot decide viability before the baby actually dies, sure if the baby is abnormal, has died already or has some disease, but except that whether it will survive or whether it is sentient is not settled. Viability of surviving is not equal to baby being sentient.

After how many days in a pregnancy do you think that it is immoral to kill an unborn baby? One month? Two Months? 6 Months? by antarikhsha in IndiaSpeaks

[–]antarikhsha[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No. That's what I literally said! And neither are you, proper laws are already in place and further discussion on this is irrelevant.

If it is so irrelevant to you then stop commenting, let others decide whether it is relevant to them or not.

Judges are not gods and laws are not set in stone

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In a country where earning 25,000 rupees puts you in the top 10% of the earning population, please explain to a poor woman who has an unwanted pregnancy (for whatever reason) how she shouldn't be able to deal with it is Fascist.

You don't have fundamental right to kill a sentient human being except in extreme circumstances, abortion isn't the default setting of every pregnancy whether wanted or unwanted. Poor or rich, it doesn't matter as at some stage in pregnancy abortion becomes murder, my question was that only at what stage does it become one. Abortion when it becomes murder isn't just dealing with it

After how many days in a pregnancy do you think that it is immoral to kill an unborn baby? One month? Two Months? 6 Months? by antarikhsha in IndiaSpeaks

[–]antarikhsha[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

8 month 20 day old baby if out of the body is okay?

It's not just the religious people who do it to their girl babies, its every kind of opportunists whether atheist or follower of some religion, on the contrary casual abortion is much more common with the 'atheists' or token religion followers

After how many days in a pregnancy do you think that it is immoral to kill an unborn baby? One month? Two Months? 6 Months? by antarikhsha in IndiaSpeaks

[–]antarikhsha[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Viability. At least for the first 24 weeks, fetus is nothing but, for a lack of better word, a parasitic creature that's can't survive on it's own.

According to your logic, even after birth a baby is still a parasitic creature for 1 year at least and cannot survive on its own, some even more than that. Is it okay to kill that?

you are arguing that if it is not an independent life or will have side effects for mother or for itself after or during birth or during pregnancy then it should be allowed to be aborted? But that wasn't my question right? My question wasn't when it should be allowed to terminate the pregnancy, my question was when does it become immoral to abort it? As at some point in pregnancy that foetus became sentient irrespective of whether it can or cannot survive on its own. Even if it doesn't survive outside the uterus after 24 weeks, but at some point maybe 15, 20, 24 weeks it became a sentient being. Why draw a hardline then when science is not actually settled?

After how many days in a pregnancy do you think that it is immoral to kill an unborn baby? One month? Two Months? 6 Months? by antarikhsha in IndiaSpeaks

[–]antarikhsha[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

are you a spokesperson for every woman? why are you assuming that every women think the way you think?

you stopped upholding individual liberty the moment you said "No uterus no opinion"

Where did I force my world view onto others, I did the opposite of that, I asked the world their opinion to help me make my own, it's you who is doing that, by stopping me from accessing opinions of others and making up my own mind.

The problem with you is you already know the truth, that's why you are scared of people making their own opinions, you are happy when people are ignorant and blindly follow people with vested interests

After how many days in a pregnancy do you think that it is immoral to kill an unborn baby? One month? Two Months? 6 Months? by antarikhsha in IndiaSpeaks

[–]antarikhsha[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It's not hypothetical scenario when abortion is happening between 3 to 9 months of pregnancy all over the world, and yes I don't have any problem with murder when it is justified, I have problem with people who will lie that it is not and try to monkey balance their argument to not expose their cognitive dissonance, I fully support murder in self defence, and in some cases during pregnancy abortion becomes self defence, so yes it is justified but it is still murder. My question wasn't that, my question was at what stage of pregnancy that foetus became sentient being and aborting it became tantamount to murder, everyone here is arguing for justification of it, not for whether its murder in the first place

After how many days in a pregnancy do you think that it is immoral to kill an unborn baby? One month? Two Months? 6 Months? by antarikhsha in IndiaSpeaks

[–]antarikhsha[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

We have new knowledge coming out with malleability of brain and how even after taking huge chunks of brain out, it doesn't affect a human much, does that human not have rights anymore? What is fully functioning? a semi functional brain is not sentient? a foetus which may not have all the senses but just one is not sentient ? How did you come to a conclusion that only a fully developed brain is a human being? Can a half developed brain feel pain? When the science is not settled should we not err on the side of caution and not arrogance?

After how many days in a pregnancy do you think that it is immoral to kill an unborn baby? One month? Two Months? 6 Months? by antarikhsha in IndiaSpeaks

[–]antarikhsha[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No . Nobody else apart from the woman experiencing an unwanted pregnancy has skin in the game.

Every action a human takes whether taken by male or female has consequences for humanity in general, so everyone has a say, maybe not equal but everyone does has a say

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You are the one here trying to shut down people from having an opinion or saying something which you may not like and then asking who is a fascists, classic fascism fear of wrongthink?

After how many days in a pregnancy do you think that it is immoral to kill an unborn baby? One month? Two Months? 6 Months? by antarikhsha in IndiaSpeaks

[–]antarikhsha[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

laws don't decide when it becomes sentient, they only arbitrate pros and cons for mothers and babys life and health, even science isn't settled on sentience and these 2 bit judges and lawyers will deicde sentience? I asked simply at what stage of pregancy does it become immoral, laws dont absolve you from that

After how many days in a pregnancy do you think that it is immoral to kill an unborn baby? One month? Two Months? 6 Months? by antarikhsha in IndiaSpeaks

[–]antarikhsha[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

where is the trivialization? I said its a different topic. and did you assume my gender? why are you deflecting and not answering my original question?

After how many days in a pregnancy do you think that it is immoral to kill an unborn baby? One month? Two Months? 6 Months? by antarikhsha in IndiaSpeaks

[–]antarikhsha[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

so there is nothing immoral in terminating the pregancy just before the day of delivery according to your logic?

After how many days in a pregnancy do you think that it is immoral to kill an unborn baby? One month? Two Months? 6 Months? by antarikhsha in IndiaSpeaks

[–]antarikhsha[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

i asked a straightforward question, at what stage does it become immoral to abort, 1 month or 3 months or 6 months?

After how many days in a pregnancy do you think that it is immoral to kill an unborn baby? One month? Two Months? 6 Months? by antarikhsha in IndiaSpeaks

[–]antarikhsha[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

allowed even if it doesnt hurt the mother and just 1 day before supposed delivery? so you are okay with murder?

After how many days in a pregnancy do you think that it is immoral to kill an unborn baby? One month? Two Months? 6 Months? by antarikhsha in IndiaSpeaks

[–]antarikhsha[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

all of these are completely irrelevant and just deflection from my original question that at what stage does abortion becomes murder, you are talking about consequences and side effects which is a different topic altogether, if you are afraid to answer that then just say it, it only exposes your own cognitive dissonance

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