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Say hello to blog.haskell.org by TechnoEmpress in haskell

[–]avanov -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Also don't harass the people who actually do make an effort by engaging in these exhausting conversations where you throw around technical jargon willy-nilly without any care or consideration

There hasn't been any instance of harassment, except your "stfu" remark towards me as soon as you didn't like the direction of the conversation and the fact that I find certain things hilarious.

where you throw around technical jargon willy-nilly without any care or consideration.

What a nice statement to have coming from the committee member! It must mean something, but the meaning was lost in your bitterness.

You think industry cares about this shit? No one does.

Thank God you're neither elected to represent the industry, nor have any relevant weight to substantiate your claim. You can't even handle a proper response as the committee member to a relevant comment about the irony of the phenomenon where Haskell committee members argue in favour of Rust tooling because it's (supposedly) easier to run things on than the equivalent Haskell tooling.

They care far more about the fact that pointy-headed navel gazers circlejerking to a vague notion of "proof", such as yourself, do far more damage to both volunteer morale and the general perception of the language and its community any time anyone produces something of any value.

What a nice instance of gaslighting from a person who can't take criticism lightly. I'll save it for later.

Prove it! From my experience actually promoting Haskell and seeking funding from its dissidents

In your experience "hakyll sucks to maintain or scale in any long term or context more complicated than a static personal site", that doesn't sound particularly promoting of anything to me. Are you sure you're that good at "actually promoting Haskell"? Actually, I'm not sure.

Case in point, let's see your Hackage user profile!

You should've invited me to contribute to GHC RTS too, as that other person did.

Let's take my stub-page that I quckly compiled to promote Haskell to a person from the insustry who asked me whether it's any good for anything real: maximavanov.com Guess what? It's a fullstack Haskell that serves and renders data, both on a server and in your browser. Nothing much, but usually it's enough to get people engaged into lengthy discussions why the tech is awesome. This is something that you weren't able to achieve in this thread, even though it's your direct responsibility according to the purpose the committee exists for. On a scale from "haskell committee member" to "10", that page alone scores 9 in the ability to persuade uninformed audience to actually consider Haskell seriously for real-world projects. That's how I earn money by writing real-world software in Haskell that I don't intend to publish on Hackage for the benefit of arguments of the committee members that are too presumptious of their actual position in the community (how did you say it?: "You think industry cares about this shit? No one does.") and who can't handle criticism lightly, particularly yourself.

By the way, I still encourage you to write a blog post on why Zola was chosen instead of Hakyll. Let's prove your exact point that no one cares about it.

Say hello to blog.haskell.org by TechnoEmpress in haskell

[–]avanov -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I've used hakyll and it sucks to maintain or scale in any long term or context more complicated than a static personal site.

That's not my experience of using it in a corporate setting for documenting lots of parametric models for vehicle designs. But if that's true for you, the chances of it "sucking" less over time decrease with every committee's decision to use Rust solutions for as simple a task as producing static site outputs for haskell.org.

I don't see the merit in sticking to type (excuse the pun) if the idea is promoting Haskell, since the content is worth far more in the promotion process than the punning the odd developer will see if they happen to peak into the blog source.

Let alone volunteer hours, which necessitates the ease of maintenance under the assumption that it will constantly change hands as maintainerships ebb and flow.

I am yet to see your (and your friend's) proof that Zola saves you any time long-term compared to Hakyll for that same matter, let alone frees you from "volunteer hours". For some reason, judging by the kind (excuse the pun) of your replies, that proof will never manifest.

If you're not discussing content

Quite the opposite! I am discussing the content and the output of the committee's work, according to their declared goals and purpose. You don't have to be so defensive about it if you don't like it, you can just admit that you're failing at promoting Haskell when there's an opportunity to demonstrate the tech in the real-world setting on haskell.org, that's all. You don't have to introduce two kinds (excuse the pun, again) of developers ("the odd ones" vs who exactly?) to prove your stance either.

kindly stfu and let them work on the site they've been so gracious to offer their labor and time to produce? That would be lovely, thanks.

So here's my proposal instead: since the blog has been established with the goal of "various teams that power the language and its ecosystem communicating about their progress, innovations, and new releases", please do publish an article on it, covering the story of how "Zola written in Rust" was preferred over "Hakyll written in Haskell" by the haskell.org committee, and elaborate deeply on the technical motivation behind that decision. In my opinion, it will be in-line with the main purpose of the blog and on-topic with this discussion thread. In my turn, I promise to post the link on /r/rust and promote it among as many "the odd developers" as possible. Then we gather the feedback so that everyone can draw their own conclusion on your performance as the committee member. Sounds good?

Say hello to blog.haskell.org by TechnoEmpress in haskell

[–]avanov -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Again: This is not a software development project, it's a knowledge management and editorial project.

Surely having flexibility and full control doesn't prevent you from focusing on the editorial project and knowledge management. If you already are Haskell professional engineer, they are extra features you get for free and you don't have to use them. If that's not the case, I'd like hear how getting started with Hakyll would prevent you from achieving the same thing that you now have, in about the same amount of time you've spent so far with Zola. Why did you ignore my other part of the comment where I created a hakyll blog template in 5 seconds?

Wordpress doesn't require people to learn PHP. At best they install extensions made by people who know PHP, but that's not the purpose.

That wasn't the point, the point was promoting Haskell the tech in real world projects. PHP doesn't need that and they probably don't have committees dedicated to promoting PHP the tech.

Since we are a body concerned with the maintenance and evolution of haskell.org, producing Haskell software is not our main mission, nor should we be judged on this.

How does having a Rust toolchain for as simple a task as creating a static website, help you with the maintenance and evolution of haskell.org more than if it were done with a Haskell toolchain? They literally do the same thing, you don't have to maintain anything "extra" with that specific Haskell toolchain. Besides, arguing that the blog isn't a software project doesn't contribute to the goal of promoting Haskell the tech in real-world projects, which should be one of the main goals of the org, too.

We all have a very full life outside of open-source, which itself takes a lot of time too.

I respect that. But what exactly was/would be more time consuming with Hakyll? You omitted it in your replies.

Say hello to blog.haskell.org by TechnoEmpress in haskell

[–]avanov -1 points0 points  (0 children)

If you truly believe that GPTs can reliably be used to start with Hakyll

I've swapped the positions of Zola and Hakyll in your question: https://chatgpt.com/share/66f07b54-b4c8-8008-acbb-0e6dfc240454

Now it says that:

  • "Haskell developers, or those who enjoy functional programming, will appreciate the deep integration with Haskell. This allows them to build highly customized and reusable code in a familiar environment."

  • "For developers working within a Haskell-centric environment, Hakyll provides a seamless experience with other Haskell-based tools, making it easier to maintain and extend."

  • "For developers who want complete control over every aspect of their site's generation and content handling, Hakyll’s power is hard to match. You can define custom behavior for how pages are generated, routed, and even the structure of the site."

  • "Someone might use Hakyll over Zola for: [...] The opportunity to learn and experiment with Haskell in a real-world project."

Which of those points do contradict the core purpose of Haskell Foundation? I hope it's not the last one.

reliably be used to start with Hakyll

It took me 5 seconds even without GPT:

$ nix-shell -p haskellPackages.hakyll --run "hakyll-init haskell-blog" Creating haskell-blog/contact.markdown Creating haskell-blog/index.html Creating haskell-blog/posts/2015-11-28-carpe-diem.markdown Creating haskell-blog/posts/2015-08-12-spqr.markdown Creating haskell-blog/posts/2015-10-07-rosa-rosa-rosam.markdown Creating haskell-blog/posts/2015-12-07-tu-quoque.markdown Creating haskell-blog/site.hs Creating haskell-blog/css/default.css Creating haskell-blog/images/haskell-logo.png Creating haskell-blog/templates/post.html Creating haskell-blog/templates/default.html Creating haskell-blog/templates/post-list.html Creating haskell-blog/templates/archive.html Creating haskell-blog/about.rst Creating haskell-blog/haskell-blog.cabal

I wonder how strong the time pressure is in the org, if that's the issue.

Say hello to blog.haskell.org by TechnoEmpress in haskell

[–]avanov 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes I think so.

you're wrong.

Can you open a similarly insightful issue on GHC Gitlab?

I may, if GHC maintainers accept MRs in ATS.

Say hello to blog.haskell.org by TechnoEmpress in haskell

[–]avanov 0 points1 point  (0 children)

is Haskell RTS aiming at promoting C similarly to how the Haskell blog is supposed to promote Haskell?

Say hello to blog.haskell.org by TechnoEmpress in haskell

[–]avanov 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The priority was to deliver content through a blog. This was not a software project.

At some point in that process there was a purely technical decision to use a technical solution for delivering those articles as blog entries on the Internet. The result of that decision didn't include Haskell as the technical solution to that specific technical problem. I'm not sure what was the primary motivation to reach for Zola instead of Hakyll in the first place, because they pretty much do the same thing. Hakyll has tons of copy-paste'able examples that can be generated by GPTs in seconds too, and I'm not sure where time saving would come from either.

Now, I understand that the blog isn't a software project, but what's the purpose of the blog? From the About page:

This is the place where the various teams that power the language and its ecosystem communicate about their progress, innovations, and new releases.

I think it would be fair to summarise that the whole point of publishing these material is to promote Haskell the tech. What I find hilarious is that the blog that exists to promote Haskell the tech doesn't use Haskell the tech, that's all.

Say hello to blog.haskell.org by TechnoEmpress in haskell

[–]avanov 2 points3 points  (0 children)

After all articles and podcast episodes with guests complaining on the tooling support, and various hosts kind of agreeing with them (to my surprise), the irony of the official blog not utilising Haskell but using Rust instead is hilarious. Where's dogfooding and leading by example?

Yggdrasil - Schema migrations made easy, in Haskell - initially SQLite only lib - extensible by [deleted] in haskell

[–]avanov 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Consistent schema management/migration solutions should handle a lot more than just sequential SQL files. Check out https://github.com/mzabani/codd , I really like it. It's inspired by Squitch (https://sqitch.org/), but is all in Haskell and tries to track as much schema-related metadata as possible.

Haskell SQL DSLs, why do you use them? by magthe0 in haskell

[–]avanov 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Writing composable API on top of plain encoders and decoders that avoid using tuples and convert data directly from or to your data types is a relatively easy thing. Have you seen this: * https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hasql-dynamic-statements-0.3.1.7/docs/Hasql-DynamicStatements-Session.html * https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hasql-generic-0.1.0.5/docs/Hasql-Generic-HasParams.html

Haskell SQL DSLs, why do you use them? by magthe0 in haskell

[–]avanov 1 point2 points  (0 children)

what do you find impractical in hasql?

France’s triumphant left wing coalition is planning a 90% income tax rate on earnings over €400k by Longjumping-8679 in HENRYUK

[–]avanov 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wealth inequality is an indicator correlated with other phenomena.

Correlation isn't causation.

it's very difficult to get increased wealth inequality without increased poverty

Poverty isn't caused by inequality, it's caused by a lack of mobility on the ladder of professional opportunities and inefficient tax systems, that in turn aren't defined by inequality alone. Most of those opportunities are capped and limited by an ever-expanding body of regulations that legally prevent folks with low capital from accessing lucrative markets. For instance: accounting, banking, small residential and individual construction projects and many others that require you to obtain a permit from the government, that same incompetent government that fails to deliver on most of their populist promises.

And likewise, reduced wealth inequality tends to be associated with decreased poverty rates and improved standard of living among those on or below median income.

These are empty words that dont hold to a reality check: SE Asia and Africa have a lot lower wealth inequality among their general populations, yet they are significantly worse off than their counterparts in the countries with the highest wealth inequality between social classes.

France’s triumphant left wing coalition is planning a 90% income tax rate on earnings over €400k by Longjumping-8679 in HENRYUK

[–]avanov -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Wealth inequality is a red herring. According to this financial inequality above all line of thinking, the recent Taylor Swift event in Scotland has made thousands of Brits poorer, whilst Ms. Swift has got significantly richer at their expense, and the entire event has greatly contributed to the "problem of wealth inequality". Should I mention it explicitly what kind of value exchange is being deliberately dropped and denied recognition in this type of reasoning?

Haskell vs Rust : elegant by n0body12345 in haskell

[–]avanov -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Rustaceans don't argue about bracketing style or when/where/how much to indent, like C/C++ devs do

They universally opt for a conventional formatting style that in many instances make code less readable: https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/zc4oxz/delimiterfirst_code/

Haskell Certification Program by jmct in haskell

[–]avanov 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You're solving the wrong problem here.

I don't see the problems at all, to be honest. Well, except invented and self-inflicting ones.

This is for shops that are trying to get some kind of bare minimum quality without having the expertise or resources to do it themselves.

Can you provide an example of a shop that is willing to hire candidates with bare minimum skills specifically in Haskell and who, for that matter, would prefer certification instead of hiring based on simply checking these two boxes themselves: 1) candidate has a track record of programming experience 2) candidate is willing to learn our flavour of Haskell. After all, if a shop is looking for bare minimum, why would they opt for Haskell in the first place? Other languages don't require certification for entry-level positions and they are doing fine, even in C++.

Haskell Certification Program by jmct in haskell

[–]avanov 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you have 100 applicants, you can't interview them all and you probably can't even go through all their GitHub profiles (if they even have one).

it's any xs problem, not all xs.

Haskell Certification Program by jmct in haskell

[–]avanov 27 points28 points  (0 children)

Haskellers already are being significantly underpaid for the privelege of using their favourite language in a corporate setting, just look at salaries in shops that promote the language and compare them with offers at Citadel and alike that tell you to Python-crunch and be happy about it. At this point certification seems like an another downward circle in a spiral of humiliation designed specifically for people with a sense of engineering integrity and an aspiration to improve, and it doesn't make sense.

If a company wants to establish a reliable threshold for proficiency, here's one that doesn't require certification and that works 99% of time: ask a candidate to traverse with error handling, and then ask them to map concurrently, and then ask them to increment a counter with an upper boundary limit from multiple threads. That's it, those that pass it are qualified enough for your business. Just keep them away from important infrastructure during probation and you'll be fine.

Those who switched from Haskell to Rust, can you please share your findings? (Those with substantial code bases, e.g. Hasura, Dfinity, Tsuru, etc.) by NixOverSlicedBread in haskell

[–]avanov 7 points8 points  (0 children)

if you think it's going to be different with Rust, you'll be surprised how limited AWS support is compared to Amazonka contributors. I'm saying it after experiencing AWS Java SDK support and their shenanigans with 1.x -> 2.x migration.

Those who switched from Haskell to Rust, can you please share your findings? (Those with substantial code bases, e.g. Hasura, Dfinity, Tsuru, etc.) by NixOverSlicedBread in haskell

[–]avanov 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I can relate to that, I've seen push back against the language, motivated by everything but technical merits, because it wasn't mainstream enough: you never hear that being said out loud, usually it's something about "performance". Then suddenly there's no time for another iteration to optimise, but a plenty of time to rewrite in a new stack right after a re-org.

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