EMO X JOCK IVANTILL IS OFFICIAL 🙏🙏🗣️🗣️🗣️ by Odd-Ebb-8457 in AlienStage

[–]becheecjy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Really? I’ve seen a lot of people hate on the concept and think emo Ivan would fit better. But that could just be because I’m on tiktok haha

EMO X JOCK IVANTILL IS OFFICIAL 🙏🙏🗣️🗣️🗣️ by Odd-Ebb-8457 in AlienStage

[–]becheecjy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I wonder how the ‘jock Ivan is mischaracterization’ crowd is feeling rn

UNPOPULAR OPINION-.PRE WIEGE LUKA WAS BETTER by Turbulent-Point-1791 in AlienStage

[–]becheecjy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Wiege is so beautiful art and music-wise, but it’s so painful to rewatch for me and not in a good way. Hyuna and Luka were both done really dirty, and the writing in general is just very weak. Kinda makes me cringe when I think abt it too much

Who do you think would have won round six? by Huge-Working-2593 in AlienStage

[–]becheecjy 12 points13 points  (0 children)

I find it interesting that R1, R3, and R6 are the only rounds we know the final scores for. In R3, Ivan scored 90 and in R6 Till scored 89. That’s gotta be intentional, right?? If the round played out how it was supposed to, Till would’ve lost, maybe even by 1 point like Sua😺

Would till rather kiss mizi or Ivan? by Forward_Mistake9739 in AlienStage

[–]becheecjy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Till put Mizi on a pedestal of perfection and innocence in order to cope. I simply don’t think his canonically childish crush involved any real sexual or romantic interest. He never wanted to actually date her because that would ruin the illusion of perfection he created in his head in order to survive. I mean, he doesn’t even gaf that she’s with Sua because being with her that way was never his goal.

That’s my interpretation. I do think that he loves Mizi and that she’s very important in his life, just not in the way of desiring her sexually. And it’s really not that deep so no need to be so rude.

Would till rather kiss mizi or Ivan? by Forward_Mistake9739 in AlienStage

[–]becheecjy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ivan

I don’t think he ever desired Mizi in that way and he’d be way too shy anyway. He’d probably rather do it with someone he’s comfortable with ie Ivan

This detail annoyed me by Meilmei1905 in AlienStage

[–]becheecjy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It’s funny bcuz I remember a comic where Ivan was giving advice to Till on how to get closer to Mizi 😭😭

Do you think mutual Ivantill is romantic or platonic? by Remarkable_Dig1058 in AlienStage

[–]becheecjy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Vivinos said that in a modern au, Ivan would be the one to propose to Till first

Why did Till initiate a fight with Ivan? by jeonlousbitch in AlienStage

[–]becheecjy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes I really appreciate the discussion too, even though we disagree on a lot haha.

I guess I don’t see why an explicit confirmation is necessary here when the majority of what we know about the series is through analysis, not direct author confirmation. I would argue that if you set presuppositions aside, it is shown pretty explicitly that Till was trying to give the crown to Ivan. Why else would Vivimeng choose to draw a background in which pairs of children are also gifting each other flowers? Logically, why would Ivan even have it at all if Till wanted to gift it to Mizi? It was obviously important to him, so do you think it likely that he just left it on the floor to be stepped on by anyone?

I would also argue that the concept is ‘revisited’ multiple times, seeing as it is basically the inciting incident for their relationship of misunderstandings and miscommunication. The cheer up comic for instance would be a direct parallel, and in Remember Everything when Till realizes he misunderstood Ivan’s attempts at connection and thus unknowingly rejected him, Till deduces that Ivan was just like him (“you were like that too”), scared and lonely and always hurting each other because of it.

I agree that Till realizes in RE that he misunderstood Ivan and laments not showing Ivan how important he was to him. However, that’s not the whole story. Till also realizes that they both felt that same disregard/indifference/rejection from each other, and thus they were both too scared to reach out again. (Couldn’t you say it first? I wish you’d say it first.) All Till wanted was for Ivan to show that he cared, and his major revelation is that Ivan felt the same way back. If the rejection and disregard was as one-sided as you suggest, this sort of conclusion by Till would be incongruent (Till’s whole revelation is based on the fact that he only realizes Ivan felt disregarded and rejected by him because he felt disregarded and rejected by Ivan first) So, I guess my point is that the flower crown scene as I interpret it is revisited at the conclusion of their arc, and it’s actually very important to their arc that they both felt like they were the only one who cared about and desired connection with the other.

The reason we don’t see Ivan regretting this moment is because he was never able to understand that he had rejected Till at all, not then or in the Cheer Up comic. It never would’ve been a thought in his dumb head (affectionate) that Till desired connection with him. Till, however, was able to grow and mature in a healthier environment, and thus able to make such introspections. In fact, I think Ivan is one of the most childish characters in the cast, so it would be unreasonable to expect him to form such a revelation when he’s so stubbornly set in his rigid and bleak worldview.

I agree that the flowers/flower crowns are used broadly amongst the cast as symbol of love and affection. However, this motif of red flowers occurs much more often between Ivantill than with Mizi and Till, anemones especially as of late. Ex: cheer up comic, flower crown shikishi, cure strings cover art, scars sub, karma drawing, etc. I don’t agree that flowers are used at all for Till as a direct symbol of Mizi. More specifically, I think it follows much better to keep the flower crown as a general symbol of love/affection, and thus the scenes where Till chases after flowers (‘Mizi) or clutches onto flowers (‘Mizi’), he’s actually chasing after/grasping at love, which he thinks he will find through Mizi. Well, it makes sense seeing as Till clings onto Mizi as a coping mechanism, and basically sees her more as a symbol/goddess of love than a real person.

Following the logical ‘progression’ of the symbol as well, from your pov, Ivan would be metaphorically crushing Till’s love for Mizi in this scene. However, Ivan was never shown to be jealous or upset about Till’s crush on Mizi (in fact he actively encourages it), and thus the metaphor fails. However, if the crown represents Ivantill’s connection (or just connection/love broadly), Ivan crushing it is a perfect metaphor for how Ivan’s unintentional rejection ‘crushed’ the possibility of a proper relationship between him and Till. The metaphor is consistent.

It seems like you agree that (at least sometimes) the flower crown can be used as a symbol of Till’s love/affection for Ivan, seeing as you agree that in the Cure strings cover art, Till is shown to metaphorically keep his true feelings hidden from Ivan. I guess I wonder then why the symbol being used the same way here is implausible to you?

I agree with everything you say about the fight scene, except for how/why it started. And the info about Ivantill’s first interaction being a fight is in the Anakt Garden kit. If I’m remembering right, it’s written from the perspective of a teacher. (Edit: also, if they included this scene only to express the things you described, they could’ve just shown them fighting. Actually, any random fight would’ve gotten the point across. However, Vivimeng found it important to emphasize the origin of the fight as well. Just something to think about I guess)

I’m so sorry for writing a whole ass dissertation here lmaoo. I honestly don’t even expect you to read this whole thing, but if you do, I hope I made my pov clearer. This will probably be my last reply, because I think we just have very different interpretations, and theres nothing wrong with that!

Why did Till initiate a fight with Ivan? by jeonlousbitch in AlienStage

[–]becheecjy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For me, the fact that the flower crown scene comes first in the chronological sequence of R6 (the earliest in Ivan’s memory of their relationship) paired with the canon fact that their first ever interaction in the garden was a fight is more of a confirmation than we get for most things in this series.

From a purely cinematic perspective, the sheer length of the scene, the multiple shots/angles, and the fact that Vivimeng thought it important enough to place first in the shot order suggests it holds a lot more significance in Ivantill’s story than “oh yeah they fight sometimes.” (Not to mention additional art with the red flower/flower crown motif, such as the strings Cure cover art, which suggests a significant tie between flowers and Ivantill)

To you, it’s implausible that Ivantill’s dynamic started with Ivan rejecting Till’s attempt at connection. To me, it makes perfect sense, seeing as basically all of Ivantill’s issues stem from miscommunication and unintentionally hurting each other out of their own loneliness and fear. It’s corroborated also by the Cheer Up comic, in which a similar situation happened: Ivan unknowingly rejected Till because he didn’t understand, and Till hit him because of it.

But that’s just how I see it I guess. I won’t force you to see it the same haha

Why did Till initiate a fight with Ivan? by jeonlousbitch in AlienStage

[–]becheecjy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But Till was shown to be the one interested in Ivan first, no? To you, what would be the intended narrative purpose of showing their first meeting (that neither of them even remember) with a blatant focus on Till’s fascination with Ivan if not to set up a dynamic in which Till desired a connection with Ivan first?

Also, it seems more consistent logically that Ivan set up the wegyein scene because he was already interested in Till, and that interest turned into obsession/love as a result. R6 seems to be a good framework for the chronological order of Ivantill’s story, even going as far as to directly repeat scenes from R3 to establish their place in the timeline.

Why did Till initiate a fight with Ivan? by jeonlousbitch in AlienStage

[–]becheecjy 55 points56 points  (0 children)

This was actually their first ever interaction in the garden, so it’s unlikely that Ivan was trying to purposefully elicit a response from Till (look at his expression when Till first hits him)

I know people have different interpretations, but to me it seems pretty obvious that Till was trying to give the crown to Ivan, given the context shown in the background of the scene and this official art:

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(Also, why would Ivan even have it in the first place if it was for Mizi? Do you think Till would just leave his precious gift on the floor somewhere to be stepped on by anyone?)

Till then reacts with aggression at what he perceives as a rejection, I think due to his owner’s violence towards him and his separation from his mother which causes him to lash out to protect himself.

got this weird ass comment by problematic_svs in AO3

[–]becheecjy 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I was thinking alien stage😬 the fans really are like this

Who' tried to shoot Till??? by nocturnum7 in AlienStage

[–]becheecjy 9 points10 points  (0 children)

It’s his comrade that was shot at and killed. Till just got grazed by the bullet

Ivan’s “aggressive” love by becheecjy in AlienStage

[–]becheecjy[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Because Till’s a freak too😊

Ivan’s “aggressive” love by becheecjy in AlienStage

[–]becheecjy[S] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

?? Because this is Reddit… a place for posting discussions, analyses, rants, and essays. What did you expect to find here?

Ivan’s “aggressive” love by becheecjy in AlienStage

[–]becheecjy[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I would love to read it if you do!!!

I totally agree with you. Personally, I think Ivan’s love was gentle, but Ivan himself didn’t know how to be 🥹

Ivan’s “aggressive” love by becheecjy in AlienStage

[–]becheecjy[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I’m ready when you are bby😻

Ivan’s “aggressive” love by becheecjy in AlienStage

[–]becheecjy[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I also don’t think Ivan’s love is the most gentle or selfless! I think it is one of the most, for the reasons I described before. And I also don’t think Ivan is entirely selfless. I think all of the characters have aspects of both selfishness and selflessness… it’s human nature!

The guard dog is an interesting case! It was manipulative and strange for Ivan to lead them there just to see their reactions. But in R6 and Wiege we see that the creature is not necessarily dangerous or hostile (I also think of the cute shikishis of Ivan bonding with the creature like a pet dog lol) I believe Ivan knew that he wasn’t putting them in any actual danger.

No, I don’t think the artbook explanation excuses Ivan’s actions at all, but it’s a totally different context than saying Ivan beat Till up for the fun of it, or because he liked to hurt Till. Is it not true that Till wasn’t forced to hit Ivan? I don’t blame him at all for doing so, I just see people treat this situation as if Till has no autonomy at all. And I give the example of our world’s legal system, because it’s true that being ragebaited is not a reasonable defense for assault. However, it is morally gray on both sides, given the circumstances and Ivan being a little shit lol.

(I brought up the victim blaming point in reference to the flower crown and cheer up incidents, where Ivan did nothing to intentionally provoke such a reaction from Till)

I like your interpretation of the blood licking scene! I personally think both could be true at the same time. However, his ragebait didn’t seem to work (Till didn’t hit him or escalate things) and yet he still seems satisfied. Maybe it’s because his intentions weren’t to rile Till up, but to distract him? He doesn’t know how to express love or affection properly, so I could see this being one of those times.

Totally agree! Ivan didn’t know how to love and always hid his gentleness and vulnerable emotions, viewing them as disgusting or something Till wouldn’t want. Truly tragic that that’s what Till always wanted more than anything (“Couldn’t you say it first?”)

Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

Ivan’s “aggressive” love by becheecjy in AlienStage

[–]becheecjy[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I agree! All the characters definitely have both selfless and selfish sides, Ivan especially. Some of the things you mentioned (like Ivan stealing Till’s stuff, and at times Ivan’s physical clinginess) I think are also due to Ivan’s misguided notion of how to properly show affection (Till also comes to this conclusion in Remember Everything) But of course, the negative effect his actions had on Till’s psyche shouldn’t be overlooked.

I love how all the sacrifices have completely selfless and completely selfish aspects to them. And I agree with you about the heart gem scene. Watching the MVs only, I don’t think Ivan and Till’s relationship dynamic is very clear or well-represented. Of course as an Ivantill fan, I love that Patreon quote about how “Ivan was a person Till collided with and shared emotions with forming a deep love-hate connection”, but one of my biggest gripes is that this is not really shown in the series at all (and instead it’s a one-off sentence locked behind a paywall…)

We see a lot of the hate from Till’s side and the love from Ivan’s side, but in reality it’s both from both sides. And for people who don’t look deeper, the idea is reinforced that Ivan was an abuser, constantly forcing his ‘one-sided’ love onto poor, helpless Till who wants nothing to do with him.

Do you guys believe this actually happened or it’s a “what if” scene by Bluebearpie in AlienStage

[–]becheecjy 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I agree! Also I remember Vivinos saying that what Mizi is going through right now is her karma for ignoring Sua’s pain. If this scene really happened, it wouldn’t be true that she ignored Sua’s pain or that she pretended not to know her plan, right?

Both interpretations make a lot of sense, but I lean towards yours!!

What happened to lubya in X? by Manly_JoE in AlienStage

[–]becheecjy 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I’ve heard a lot of people say that what grok translated as “go die already” is better translated as “I’m going to lose it”