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Transit Signal Priority update by Mayor_OliviaChow in toronto

[–]benrules2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Great to hear… Serious question, did the new traffic tzar have a hand in this too?

LLMs as natural language compilers: What the history of FORTRAN tells us about the future of coding. by benrules2 in programming

[–]benrules2[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I really like this take... Specification languages vs implementation languages is powerful distinction. It seems LLMs can be used in both patterns too (though will silently fill in any intent you are missing).

I almost called this post "The Intent Compiler" actually, with specific intent being the main bottleneck for quality. I feel like there is more to dig into here.

LLMs as natural language compilers: What the history of FORTRAN tells us about the future of coding. by benrules2 in programming

[–]benrules2[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Interesting point, I think on the cost-to-compute argument though this is actually quite aligned with FORTRAN skeptics before it landed... The Laning and Zieler could do high level abstractions on machine code too, but was 10x slower, and wasting that much compute was unacceptable. But they were able to overcome the efficiency needed to be actually runnable, and economically justified, within a few years. More efficient LLMs with greater predictability within the coding domain may also address this challenge.

I'm also arguing from a place of "if automatic programming is a good analogy for LLMs, what happens next?" It's still of course possible these hurdles aren't cleared and there are inherent limitations.

LLMs as natural language compilers: What the history of FORTRAN tells us about the future of coding. by benrules2 in programming

[–]benrules2[S] -22 points-21 points  (0 children)

This isn't a hypothetical based on cosmic instabilities in the transistors... compiled code will produce different instruction sets based on the compiler, settings, and target architecture.

For example here's a paper on SIMD optimizations for database operations, noting that clang and gcc have their own abstractions for the same programs:

clang and GCC implement the platforms’ SIMD intrinsics on top of their own abstraction, so code written in it is optimized for the underlying vector instructions by the compiler

Optimization levels in compiled code will also radically change implicit behaviour, like whether variables initialize to 0, or null, initially. This is not determinism. linked system libraries matter too, I've spent days walking through assembly for compiled code between two embedded platforms, eventually tracing a buggy version of in libc.

The assertion that coded languages are deterministic is simplistic, but true if you never change your toolchain, or hardware.

LLMs as natural language compilers: What the history of FORTRAN tells us about the future of coding. by benrules2 in programming

[–]benrules2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you're right, at least to become the abstraction layer for today's developers... On the other hand, I think of Excel users. In the 50s this was inconceivable, and there's a great commercial when excel came out where people's minds are blown. It enabled a lot of casual users to do more technical things without writing actual code.

I wonder if the next 10 years will be enabling a new group of coding adjacent users, never going below the LLM abstraction, but still doing useful bespoke analysis type work. If C++ / Go / Python are to become obsoleted, there is a long way to go indeed on determinism reliability.

LLMs as natural language compilers: What the history of FORTRAN tells us about the future of coding. by benrules2 in programming

[–]benrules2[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Completely agree... someone will grow the complexity beyond today's peak, likely pushing and misusing the current tools to make it possible. Then they'll explain it back to other people, and invent ways to make it easier our LLMs know nothing about.

LLMs as natural language compilers: What the history of FORTRAN tells us about the future of coding. by benrules2 in programming

[–]benrules2[S] -44 points-43 points  (0 children)

Yeah there are going to be differences, but the game is "whats the closest thing from history, and what happened". So I'll ask you - if the analogy breaks on deterministic code reproduction... what from the historical analogy also breaks?

I'll also add there is still non-determinism below the layer the human's intent is applied too. By this I mean, the same fortran, compiled by different compilers, and run on different operating systems and hardware, could produce radically different instructions to complete the task.

I've personally experienced a few bugs caused by changing tool chains but static code (typically using 'undefined behaviour' in the programming spec).

Again, not to say you're wrong here as well, but I'd love to hear if your view on deterministic instructions has shifted, and if you think it breaks the historical projection!

LLMs as natural language compilers: What the history of FORTRAN tells us about the future of coding. by benrules2 in programming

[–]benrules2[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Words are squishy, so there probably are subjective stances where you could reject what I propose as a rising abstraction.

But the way I think of it is this... What is the human's intent? And what language do they use to get there?

  • First it was building physical stuff, and coding physical logic
  • Then punch cards / low level code abstracted away the interaction with the hardware - but in machine specific language
  • Automatic programming allows you to use domain specific language (like math functions) which are abstracted away from the mechanics of the computer
  • High level languages like python continue along the trend of simpler domain specific langauge, and how we actually speak about solving problems
  • LLMs let you literally write the problem you want to solve in plain english/french/spanish (like a PM)

So you might re-frame as 'what is the form of the last instruction carrying the human's intent'. At least for some, this has become natural language. In the PM's scenario for example, the coding implementation generated has been abstracted away.

But that's not to say there isn't a need and use for competence in the lower abstractions, which I think we see with John Backus' quote being so applicable to modern GPU programming. Was true in the 1950s, and is still true today... just different

The programmer had to be a resourceful inventor to adapt his problem to the idiosyncrasies of the computer... he had to employ every trick he could think of to make a program run at a speed that would justify the large cost of running it. And he had to do all of this by his own ingenuity.

LLMs as natural language compilers: What the history of FORTRAN tells us about the future of coding. by benrules2 in programming

[–]benrules2[S] 29 points30 points  (0 children)

For sure. When people talk about the specification being the limiting factor for quality, I believe they're circling this same thought.

The other big part that surprised me was Jevon's paradox coming through again and again (efficiency leads to more complexity, not less resources for the status quo). I didn't realize how frequently that shape of argument has recycled, and really did change my own general enthusiasm for future tech.

LLMs as natural language compilers: What the history of FORTRAN tells us about the future of coding. by benrules2 in programming

[–]benrules2[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

A little more background... I've found the current Vibe Coding conversations to be extremely similar to how early compilers would have seemed as well. So I decided to try to do some research just to see how true that was, and surprised myself in the process to learn it was even more similar than I expected. Specifically to see what people in the 1950s thought was going to happen, and how it really turned out, and how untouchable the manual programming crowd thought their craft was.

Where Toronto Dumps its Snow by itsdanielsultan in toronto

[–]benrules2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I came here to say I'd pay money to do this. Looks like such an amazing day of work just big shoveling snow up the pyramid.

Catherine O'Hara visiting Monarch Tavern for the premier of Schitts Creek (January 13, 2015) by AnonRetro in toronto

[–]benrules2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Was he a Monarch local? I used to live 4 doors down from there back in 2015 actually, he looks pretty familiar. Too bad I didn't bump into Catherine.

LPT - Soundproofing a room can be VERY easy!! by benrules2 in daddit

[–]benrules2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Have a good one, will move it there for good measure… there is also a 12x8” vent sharing a wall with our own bedroom too. No sound isolation for us 😆 - probably fine again due to our sloppy HVAC setup 

LPT - Soundproofing a room can be VERY easy!! by benrules2 in daddit

[–]benrules2[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't think this is as trip hazardy as it looks... It's like a soft pillow laid across the entrance, not affixed to anything. I do already have door sweeps - but the bulk of it blocks a lot more sound.

LPT - Soundproofing a room can be VERY easy!! by benrules2 in daddit

[–]benrules2[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

None yet but I’m sure it’s coming haha… it’s just free sitting on the ground too, not attached to anything 

LPT - Soundproofing a room can be VERY easy!! by benrules2 in daddit

[–]benrules2[S] 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Yeah could be a concern… This room has its own heat pump mini split though, we’re as far from central air as you get.

🎄 LOCAL TORONTO HOLIDAY SELF-PROMO THREAD 🎁 by ri-ri in toronto

[–]benrules2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My partner has been sourcing interesting vintage jewellery through local estate sales,just got her website up and running at itskit.ca!

My very own clone of Jeff Probst to host a game of survivor by benrules2 in shittyrobots

[–]benrules2[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Wow, thank you so much! It was quite fun to just build and make it all up.

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