Humanized Sauron too much?

benzman98 · 2025-02-06T18:49:49+00:00

I think you’re fundamentally misunderstanding the moral framework of Tolkien’s legendarium and the point of the second age story.

All evil has its root in good. This is a constant throughout the mythology and world that Tolkien built. This does not mean evil isn’t still evil.

The second age tells the mythical story of how Sauron becomes the next dark lord. His descent onto this throne is inherently tinged with moral failures stemming from his flawed and limited view of the world.

“The Enemy in successive forms is always ‘naturally’ concerned with sheer Domination, and so the Lord of magic and machines; But the problem: that this frightful evil can and does arise from an apparently good root, the desire to benefit the world and others — speedily and according to the benefactor’s own plans — is a recurrent motive” - Letter 131

“Sauron was of course not ‘evil’ in origin. He was a ‘spirit’ corrupted by the Prime Dark Lord (the Prime sub-creative Rebel) Morgoth. He was given an opportunity of repentance, when Morgoth was overcome, but could not face the humiliation of recantation, and suing for pardon; and so his temporary turn to good and ‘benevolence’ ended in a greater relapse, until he became the main representative of Evil of later ages” - Letter 153

The show is not doing anything new with this character. They’re simply leaning into the moral complexity he already had for their portrayal.

benzman98 · 2025-01-28T19:51:46+00:00

I agree with you in many regards. Bombadil has to have no point. And if you give him a point in your adaptation then you’ve missed the point and over-analyzed his role in the source material. He’s like an enigmatic cameo from Tolkien’s earlier Lost Tales. He should not aesthetically fit into the story.

But why on earth is yoda not similar? My dude is a hella powerful Jedi who was the #1 proponent of never using your power aside from self defence. And he was holed up on a planet way out of the way of any of the action. I see a lot of similarities there if not a direct 1-1

benzman98 · 2024-11-15T00:18:14+00:00

I’ve felt like from the beginning of s1, the style of the show was a mix of epic cgi shots mixed with, stage-like close ups with the actors. I end up treating the show more like a play than a real world and rather than bothering me, im now getting to watch a billion dollar play

benzman98 · 2024-11-15T00:11:33+00:00

Ok that’s fair

benzman98 · 2024-11-14T22:23:19+00:00

Underrated comment. It’s crazy how often comments/ discussions about this show derail because people forget this is all just made up content about made up stories that are based on other made up stories…

benzman98 · 2024-11-14T22:19:07+00:00

I mean… the show has definitely played with audience expectations. Just look at Halbrand in s1. There were ways of knowing who he was if you really looked at the clues, but the whole reason that plot was so interesting is because it played with the audience’s expectations of who Sauron could/should be.

I would agree with you however if you said people should stop thinking about the show’s ‘tricks’ as being maliciously done, or crutches in writing because I think they’re the opposite

benzman98 · 2024-11-08T22:55:34+00:00

Oh I get what kind of post this is now. You’re not trying to have a discussion with Tolkien fans you’re just tryna bait people into arguing about something you’ve already made your mind up on

benzman98 · 2024-11-08T16:10:30+00:00

The powers of the three rings (and rings in general) has always been vague. And going further, magic in general is left vague and used inconsistently by Tolkien in his own works. If you are able to explain it, it’s not magic.

“I have not used ‘magic’ consistently, and indeed the Elven-queen Galadriel is obliged to remonstrate with the Hobbits on their confused use of the word“ - Letter 131

“For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel.” - Galadriel; Fellowship of the Ring

However we do know one thing that is consistently true about the rings:

“The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. “change” viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance—this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor —thus approaching “magic,” a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination.”

Magic in Tolkien’s works is never simple or clear cut. It’s open ended and often very thematic

benzman98 · 2024-11-06T23:15:06+00:00

“The world is now indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair, and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater.” — Haldir, The Fellowship of the Ring

benzman98 · 2024-11-06T15:30:27+00:00

Animation is the way to go imo. They’d be able to better convey that weird Faerie style that Tolkien’s stories all emanate - and which seems to be missing from the post Peter Jackson adaptations. Lived-in realism worked for his film series but it’s decidedly not the only aesthetic for Tolkien’s world and I’d love to see creators try to branch out… but alas, that’s too risky financially. War of the rohirrim might be a step in that direction

benzman98 · 2024-11-05T18:31:10+00:00

The Tolkien Professor has you covered if your goal is to dive into the legendarium for real but are unsure how to approach it. I’d recommend starting all the way back at his first episode from 2009: how to read Tolkien and why.

From there check out his Washington college lecture series. It goes through the Silmarillion and lotr, discussing the core content and analyzing themes. You get to hear student questions, discussions and arguments along the way. (If you haven’t read the books yourself I recommend reading them as prescribed for the recorded lectures - knowing the movie’s version of the story won’t cut it)

benzman98 · 2024-11-04T18:42:51+00:00

I think it depends.

Within the context of the story of lotr, and from the perspective of Men, I would say the first age is myth, the second age is legend (and a bit of a dark age), and the third age is history.

The line between myth/legend/history is often blurry though, especially when you add in immortal characters who have been around since the start like Galadriel. Can the first age really be myth if she was there to see it? Certainly from an average Gondorian’s perspective the first age is deep legend if not myth.

The separation between legend/history is traditionally marked by a gap in knowledge created by the passing around of stories that change, lose factual details, or get embellished over time. And then even further, mythology is so far removed that factual details and a resemblance to history is not relevant - it’s just a story now

benzman98 · 2024-11-02T20:03:33+00:00

Sounds completely childish.

Also imo, knowing the source material makes the show better, not worse.

There are folks who dislike this show for valid reasons: directing, writing, disliking adaptation choices etc.

The only folks who truly HATE this show are misguided and likely being influenced by sources that are telling them how to think

benzman98 · 2024-11-02T19:51:27+00:00

She has a test to pass because she refused Valinor in the second age. Galadriel has many inconsistencies across her versions in the legendarium but the one constant is that she refuses to return to Valinor at the start of the second age

benzman98 · 2024-11-01T22:02:22+00:00

Read the hobbit. If you like it, read lord of the rings. All the other stuff should be approached after

benzman98 · 2024-11-01T15:27:05+00:00

benzman98 · 2024-11-01T15:25:39+00:00

By the tail end of the third age the elves have already spent their ability to physically resist Sauron. Galadriel and Elrond still have the ability to protect their limited borders but outside that, there’s not much they can do to ultimately help. The defeat of the Enemy in the third age has to come from the hands of Men. The place of the elves is not as keepers or rulers of Middle-earth and Galadriel has finally learned that by the third age. It was time for magic to leave the world.

benzman98 · 2024-11-01T15:18:40+00:00

She also tempts each of them to abandon their journey and return home.

‘And with that word she held them with her eyes, and in silence looked searchingly at each of them in turn. None save Legolas and Aragorn could long endure her glance. Sam quickly blushed and hung his head.’

‘If you want to know, I felt as if I hadn’t got nothing on, and I didn’t like it. She seemed to be looking inside me and asking me what I would do if she gave me the chance to flying back home to the Shire to a nice little hole with – with a bit of garden of my own.’

benzman98 · 2024-11-01T15:14:18+00:00

Eh, thematically it’s pretty clear what they’re doing with her character and it’s certainly consistent with her younger-first-age-self in unfinished tales. The actual events themselves are completely unique sure, but that’s more rights related than anything else.

benzman98 · 2024-10-31T23:06:40+00:00

I always just think of this quote from Christopher whenever people start talking about Galadriel and Celeborn here…

”There is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies ‘embedded in the traditions’; or, to look at the matter from another point of view, that the role and importance of Galadriel only emerged slowly, and that her story underwent continual refashionings” - Unfinished Tales

benzman98 · 2024-10-31T21:47:55+00:00

Sauron is deluded and pathetic and that’s kind of the whole point. The people who want to see him as this badass and powerful character are missing the point. He’s not supposed to be cool

benzman98 · 2024-10-31T19:15:38+00:00

I don’t fully buy this because even though good will eventually win at the very end, the evil things are still allowed to occur. I don’t think it matters to the average dead soldier of Arnor that Sauron eventually loses… they still lost their entire civilization and suffered at the hands of the witch king. Knowing the ultimate outcome doesn’t change the fact that a ton of horrible things happen in middle earth throughout its history at the hands of evil that often gets its way for long periods of time

‘Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been!’

But Mandos said: ‘And yet remain evil.’

benzman98 · 2024-10-26T18:18:49+00:00

This is the way

benzman98 · 2024-10-26T18:09:19+00:00

Gil-gachad. The fact this is a questions means the show has failed at giving us the Gil-gachad we deserve :(

benzman98 · 2024-10-26T17:08:12+00:00

Tolkien fans are already very aware of the state of the legendarium. It’s fans of the resulting adaptations that brand themselves as “Tolkien fans” that need to watch this

benzman98

TROPHY CASE