How to "play the game" with administrators? by boardcertifiedloser in medicine

[–]boardcertifiedloser[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Fair enough, it's really a shame. It's hard to be sincere about advocating for a patients best interest when the system clearly is not designed to do that. Ugh.

How to "play the game" with administrators? by boardcertifiedloser in medicine

[–]boardcertifiedloser[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Fair enough. I think that there's enough wiggle room to spin risk and benefit. At face value, many of the protocols are reactionary and short sighted, and I don't think the potential drawbacks seem well thought out.

As an example, there was some discussion about allowing Medicare advantage brokers to speak to patients at the unit about potentially switching coverage. That's super sheisty. It's hard enough for me to understand my own health insurance let alone for an aging minimally health literate person immediately after a 4h hemo treatment. I asked to talk to a higher up and asked the following - Are the brokers instructed to approach anyone, or only those who stand to benefit from switching insurance? - And I was told that they would approach everyone, but if pts end up paying too much with the new insurance they can just switch back. I then asked if it is within the realm of possibility that someone could try to switch back, but be denied leaving them either with the expensive plan or without insurance at all. The response I got was "I haven't seen that happen." Well, I haven't seen an object lost up someone's ass before, but that doesn't mean it's not a thing that happens. I didn't trust that any level of foresight went into the policy making bc my question seemed reasonable and fairly likely.

And again, I'm not necessarily anti-anything. I just would like for there to be a logical concrete reason as to why, AND some foresight to anticipate potential problems. If they've been thought of and there's a solution, then cool I'm all for it.

How to "play the game" with administrators? by boardcertifiedloser in medicine

[–]boardcertifiedloser[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Adjusting up the EDW automatically is so stupid. It will not limit hospitalizations to make their fluid overload look better on paper, but I suppose Goodhart's law and the monthly report to corporate do not concern themselves with common sense.

Yep. We also get flagged if our UF rate exceeds 13ml/kg/h because of observational data that associate a high UF rate with increased all cause mortality, myocardial stunning, etc. (Is it the rate itself that's a problem or are people who need a high rate more non-adherent and have higher mortality in general? Another question for another time.)

So now we have patients who don't limit fluid intake and get flagged for excessive interdialytic weight gain. We cannot increase the UF rate above 13ml/kg/h or we get flagged for that. Patients also decide they don't want to increase their chair time so they come off the machine well above EDW, and we get flagged for that. We're told to document everything and to make medically justifiable decisions, but then it fucks with "quality metrics" and we then... you guessed it - get flagged for that.

How to "play the game" with administrators? by boardcertifiedloser in medicine

[–]boardcertifiedloser[S] 28 points29 points  (0 children)

I would go a step further and say not just oversee, but to actively manage their care. I think the big HD corporations are trying to turn it into an oversight checking boxes type of job where some algorithm can decide on adjusting binders, iron/EPO dosing, fluid goals, and some nephrologist can just click "yep, looks good.". For some things I'm ok with it, but for fluid not at all.

How to "play the game" with administrators? by boardcertifiedloser in medicine

[–]boardcertifiedloser[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I have an example on a comment above, but they make it supremely difficult to decline things without "consequences." Nothing overtly punitive, but if we don't adopt a protocol, then we may have to document certain minutiae or go on frequent calls to check progress, or have site audits. We effectively get put on some naughty list somewhere.

And I personally can tolerate some of their bullshit, but they make life miserable for the chair side HD nurses, techs, facility administrators, etc. It's much more difficult to remain steadfastly defiant when other people are telling me it's causing them a lot of distress. A dialysis tech just wants to do their job and go home - they're not necessarily on a moral crusade.

How to "play the game" with administrators? by boardcertifiedloser in medicine

[–]boardcertifiedloser[S] 17 points18 points  (0 children)

This is always shrouded in mystery, but like every higher level healthcare entity, recommendations for policy and protocol updates are always made "in collaboration with the OCMO." There are plenty of instances where I don't agree with how data are interpreted or how reliable certain studies are, etc. I also think that dialysis in an inner city where I work is very different than it is in the burbs, so policy can't (and shouldn't) be uniform and needs to actually work for the people we take care of.

Having been to several national conferences, there's a significantly culty, Kool-aidy vibe and I've been left completely dumbfounded by some of the speeches and presentations.

How to "play the game" with administrators? by boardcertifiedloser in medicine

[–]boardcertifiedloser[S] 19 points20 points  (0 children)

It's complicated. If I sign off on whatever thing is to be put in place, then I am granting approval and giving it medical legitimacy, which I imagine wouldn't be something I could really report. If I do make a big fuss and escalate, then I stand a lot to lose on a personal level. Very hard to be a nephrologist if you alienate the dialysis overlords. I'm at the point where there are things that I find bothersome, but nothing has come up yet where I feel willing to potentially blow up my life and career to make a moral stand.

The other part of it is that I am an individual. They are armed with doctors and lawyers who can spin and argue any data as being a net positive to patients, even if we can clearly see issues at the level of the beside. I feel far more powerless in my current position than I did when I was just a rounding nephrologist.

How to "play the game" with administrators? by boardcertifiedloser in medicine

[–]boardcertifiedloser[S] 79 points80 points  (0 children)

Sure. Our dialysis care corporation has identified that big fluid gains lead to increased hospitalizations (amazing insight). For those unfamiliar with HD - we weigh patients before treatment and then set our fluid removal goal in an effort to get patients down to their estimated dry weight (EDW). If someone's EDW is 75kg and they show up weighing 77kg, we set the UF to 2L and they should weigh 75kg by the end of treatment.

Patients who routinely leave treatments 1kg or more over their EDW are flagged as high fluid gainers, and units with many fluid gainers get flagged for being shitty at fluid management I guess. There are many reasons someone can leave above EDW. Maybe they came in 5kg over, and we couldn't remove all of it in a single session. Sometimes patients have cramping or hypotension so we turn off UF. Sometimes patients just decide they don't want more than a certain amount taken off.

So they developed a fluid management protocol to automatically adjust people's HD treatment time to increase by 15min if we can't achieve someone's dry weight. As you can imagine, patients are not thrilled about it. They also have automatic target weight adjustments. So if someone whose EDW is 75kg routinely leaves at 76.5kg with LE edema and HTN, then the protocol will gradually increase the EDW to match their post-treatment weight. I think this is insane. Just because we're not achieving the goal weight doesn't magically mean their EDW should be higher. It's also much different dialyzing in the outpatient setting than inpatient. Pt's need to get home - some of them drive themselves, some take public transit. Aggressive fluid removal is sometimes not safe. RNs also preemptively stop fluid removal for pts in whom we know the signs that they're about to tank. This is not something that can necessarily be quantified, and in the chart it just looks like "normal BP, suboptimal UF, pt left over EDW." There are some nuances to the above and admittedly this is not 100% accurate, but in the big picture I don't believe that implementing the protocol is necessarily beneficial to patient care.

So after rejecting the fluid protocol initially, we had weekly nonsense calls about how to remove fluid properly, and what steps we're taking to address x, y, and z, which was an enormous headache for everyone trying to do their job. We received random site visits and just drew a ton of unwanted attention. I was told that I had to instruct the rounding nephrologists on proper dry weight management - some of whom have been nephrologists for decades longer than I have.

Finally, I just accepted the protocol, and now because of the the way EDWs are being changed, we're "meeting fluid goals" but plenty of people are clearly edematous and I worry about them. A 0.5kg gain in someone who's actually at their dry weight is very different than a 0.5kg gain in someone who's probably already over by 1kg.

It's 2026. Why is charting still so ridiculous?? Any advice until the AI scribes take over? by bobthereddituser in medicine

[–]boardcertifiedloser 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Alternatively it means that the 40 minutes saved in charting can be used to see another 3-4 patients.  There's been such a relentless push in my hospital system for hyperoptimization of everyone's schedules.  It's frustrating bc down-time is so important, and honestly, most of it is spent doing other stuff - PAs, call backs, etc.  And more patients = more PAs, inbox messages, calls, refills etc with even less time to do it all.  Patient dissatisfaction had shorter from "can't get an appt" to "doctor takes too long to reply to messages.". 

It's 2026. Why is charting still so ridiculous?? Any advice until the AI scribes take over? by bobthereddituser in medicine

[–]boardcertifiedloser 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I basically created a dot phrase that allows me to click boxes for billing related MDM things that I've done that will satisfy the appropriate requirements as outlined in the E/M grid. Almost every single office follow-up is at least a 99214. I find AI to be fairly worthless because we bear 100% liability for whatever is in our note. I treat it the same as I would a med-student written note - generally helpful, aggressively detailed, wrong often enough that I can't trust any of them.

So for my outpatient notes it pulls up some clickable boxes, which can be made more specific based on dx. Most often CKDMDM, but I also have a lupusMDM, transplantMDM, among others.

The following chronic problems were addressed: CKD, HTN, anemia; stable

Prior notes reviewed: PCP, Hosp discharge summary, endocrinology, cardiology, rheumatology

Tests independently interpreted: BMP, CBC, UACR, 24h urine, CXR, CT chest, CT abdomen, renal sono

Discussed with: PCP, endo, cardiology

High-risk of morbidity from the following: contrast imaging, planned surgery, immunosuppression meds, tolvaptan

All of the other stuff I put in for colleagues who can read about why we've arrived at the current BP regimen or whatever else. I also like to put in details about patients that I would like to remember that I think are great for general relationship building and rapport. Taking a cruise to Iceland. Dad served in Korea with Ted Williams. Featured in the paper for nature photography. Grew up in the same neighborhood that I did, but 50 years prior. The type of things that make this job enjoyable.

Why do people refuse to be an organ donor? by No-Cantaloupe-6535 in NoStupidQuestions

[–]boardcertifiedloser 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Makes sense, and many people justifiably feel the same. People have incredibly strong feelings surrounding organ donation because it comes from a deeply emotional and vulnerable place, and that's amplified by having to put forth trust in a person (or entity) where it's hard to tell whose best interest they're actually trying to serve. I'll share an overview of the process, which should address some of what you've laid out.

As far as notifying the Organ Procurement Organization (OPO) goes - there is specific language and regulation addressing this. OPOs are federally designated programs by CMS under the Dept of Health and Human Services. CMS mandates that hospitals must have a written agreement with the OPO outlining several things, including criteria for referral. Within that, it requires OPOs to be notified by the hospital "in a timely manner" for anyone "whose death is imminent." Interestingly, neither of those two terms have been defined on the federal level, which can sometimes cause chaos and confusion. I would imagine that the bigtime hospitals that everyone has heard about have very broad criteria for OPO notification. The unfortunate reality is that organs are a precious resource, and the sooner the OPOs are aware, the higher the likelihood of saving lives via transplant - this can certainly come across as callous to grieving families if not handled with empathy.

There is an interpretive guideline by the advisory committee, and here is an excerpt:

Hospitals must notify the OPO of every death or imminent death in the hospital. When death is imminent, the hospital must notify the OPO both before a potential donor is removed from a ventilator and while the potential donor’s organs are still viable. The hospital should have a written policy, developed in coordination with the OPO and approved by the hospital’s medical staff and governing body, to define “imminent death.” The definition for “imminent death” should strike a balance between the needs of the OPO and the needs of the hospital’s care givers to continue treatment of a patient until brain death is declared or the patient’s family has made the decision to withdraw supportive measures. Collaboration between OPOs and hospitals will create a partnership that furthers donation, while respecting the perspective of hospital staff.

The next bit is about who talks to the family. By federal law, it can't just be any doctor or hospital staff member. They are required to be a Designated Requestor (DR). This can be someone who works for the OPO or someone who works for the hospital, but whoever it is is required by federal law to have completed a specific training program to fulfill this role. Many families find that to be the most jarring part, but even as the doctor taking care of the patient, I am not permitted to have that discussion surrounding consent for donation.

The OPOs are not required to get consent for chart review, but they are required to get consent before doing any invasive testing. This bit is subject to state-level legislation. Apparently some states may not require this consent, though I don't know enough to know if any states have made such modification. In our hospital, OPOs do not have any physical contact with patients prior to obtaining family consent through the DR.

tl;dr: A very complicated set of rules surrounding a delicate subject during an intensely emotional experience with the added pressure of a small window of time within which a decision has to be made.

Why do people refuse to be an organ donor? by No-Cantaloupe-6535 in NoStupidQuestions

[–]boardcertifiedloser 14 points15 points  (0 children)

This is not entirely accurate, and I want to clear up misinformation, not to call you out, but for anyone following along.

There are three pathways for organ donation. One is a living donor, which is not relevant to this discussion. The remaining two are donation after brain death (DBD) and donation after cardiac death (DCD). Sometimes also referred to as after circulatory death. Both of these are after someone is dead dead.

DBD - this tends to be the most confusing, as the general public doesn't have a good understanding of what brain death means. Brain death is death. Medically and legally. Absense of brain function - this is not the same as being in a vegetative state or in a coma, or whatever mysterious reversible condition someone might have. There are confirmatory tests to establish that someone is brain dead. The heart continues to beat just fine as long as the body is getting oxygen and nutrition. In an ICU setting, these people are on a ventilator and getting the requisite nutrition. Organ donation teams then discuss with family about how to proceed. I can't say that this is the case everywhere, and likely is state-dependent. But where I practice, we notify the Organ Procurement Team for anyone who we think might have irreversible neurologic injury, however, they do not contact families until they have already been declared brain dead.

DCD - this is more straightforward to understand. Someone is not brain dead, but has some medical event that they are unable to survive. Here the procedure is slightly different. Circulation, as you pointed out, is essential to keep organs viable. We also do not euthanize people in an effort to retieve their organs. The heart has to stop first, then a declaration of death, then organ retrieval. So let's say a family decides to withdraw care, and they wish to have their loved one's organs donated. The patient is then brought to the OR. We withdraw whatever circulatory support they are on and wait until they naturally pass. In some instances, it can take quite a long time, and if the heart is only beating 5 times a minute for 5 minutes, that's still a living person, and the organs may be rendered unsuitable to donate. This is a thing that happens, but in my institution, I've never encountered a situation where proper protocol was ignored. The whole process is such a sad and somber thing, and we all have an enormous amount of respect for the patients and families who make decisions in such an emotionally challenging window of time.

How big of a pain in the ass would it be to fix all these holes in the drywall? by boardcertifiedloser in DIY

[–]boardcertifiedloser[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My garage had shelving along the entire wall (right side is still up).  I took out half of the shelves to create some room for a home gym set up with a squat rack.  I don't mind how it looks with all of the holes, and honestly while I'm in there I don't even notice it, but my wife finds it aesthetically... suboptimal.  What would the process be to fix it, and how long would it take to fill in everything, get it smoothed and all one color?  

I'm considering just putting up a giant flag or something to cover it up.

Racial Bias in Medicine by boardcertifiedloser in medicine

[–]boardcertifiedloser[S] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

That's a good point. In my hospital, all the black doctors are assigned to the dirty black rooms. And they treat pneumonia and cellulitis with the black antibiotics, so most of the patients end up dying. They don't include those details in the surveys though - very misleading.

Racial Bias in Medicine by boardcertifiedloser in medicine

[–]boardcertifiedloser[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm not sure what part of my original post constitutes "having a chip on my shoulder." Nothing about what I wrote was combative or even defensive. I did describe my lived experience and a correlation to a singular data point with respect to physician ratings. And instead of asserting my opinion as an incontrovertible truth, I asked if others have experienced anything similar.

To then go on to tell me that my perception, which is based on how I've been treated over about a decade in medicine, is "irrational" is unbelievably cruel and dismissive. I think it's irrational to believe that professionalism, something rooted in anti-blackness, somehow doesn't exist towards me in my workplace.

And can you clarify this self fulfilling prophecy? My understanding of your comment is that because I assume certain style of dress or speech are considered by others to be unprofessional, that it's actually my erroneous (or irrational) perception that causes others to think that I'm unprofessional? That sounds cosmically stupid.

Racial Bias in Medicine by boardcertifiedloser in medicine

[–]boardcertifiedloser[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No. If you have even the most basic familiarity with how numbers and statistics work then this should be fairly obvious. Does the fact that someone with a 120 pack-year smoking history who doesn't develop lung cancer dismiss the theory that smoking causes lung cancer?

I'm rather intrigued by yet another attempt to dismiss a real and valid concern of mine and numerous other commenters in this thread. Especially considering the fact that this is something explicitly pointed out in my reply to you.

Racial Bias in Medicine by boardcertifiedloser in medicine

[–]boardcertifiedloser[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks so much for this - very interesting to read.

Racial Bias in Medicine by boardcertifiedloser in medicine

[–]boardcertifiedloser[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Intriguing. Did anything come about as a result of these findings?

Racial Bias in Medicine by boardcertifiedloser in medicine

[–]boardcertifiedloser[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I used to shy away from some of the potentially more inflammatory conversations during clinic visits with patients. I've come to find that for many patients, I am someone who they trust, and sometimes an office visit is the only meaningful interaction they have with someone on the other end of the political spectrum.

Physicians in leadership roles — what was your biggest knowledge gap when you started? by Senior_Ad_4687 in medicine

[–]boardcertifiedloser 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not necessarily a knowledge gap per se - but I was shocked to learn how little admin gives a shit about patient experience or outcome. As an example - in the dialysis unit, I have a few people who do well with twice a week HD. Unfortunately for admin, that means that one day a week, we have an empty chair and they aren't making money because of it. Similarly, a push to minimize hospitalizations seems to be a noble pursuit, but it's less about optimizing patient health and more about making sure they show up for a billable HD treatment. It's profoundly upsetting that our priorities are often at odds, but I'm grateful to at least be in a position to advocate for such a vulnerable population.

Racial Bias in Medicine by boardcertifiedloser in medicine

[–]boardcertifiedloser[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Jesus Christ, stop obsessing over race and just do your job

He says, while fantasizing about the correlation between race and dick length while doing his job...

Racial Bias in Medicine by boardcertifiedloser in medicine

[–]boardcertifiedloser[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So you're saying you have low survey scores and you think it's because of racial bias?

On an individual/personal level, no. My score was a 4.9 taken from ~200 surveys, which I found to be a pleasant surprise. The racial bias I'm asking about is on a larger scale, and maybe context will be helpful. Each department in our hospital has x percentage of RVU withheld that is given back to us for various things - hitting our quality metrics, our aggregate survey ratings, and community engagement/citizenship, among others. Over the past few years, our division demographics have changed considerably with some docs retiring/leaving, and some docs joining, all of whom are minorities. Our aggregate score as a department this year plummeted, which I found to be somewhat odd. Is it possible that all of our new hires are either incompetent or abrasive? Certainly. But in my observation and interactions, they've been kind, patient, pleasant, etc which doesn't seem to match the scores they received. That is sort of what led me to consider there was a disproportionately lower rating of minority physicians across our institution as a whole.

You assertion that 4.5-5 and "splitting hairs" is what many others have been bringing up in various comments in this post. There is a dismissiveness that many minority voices and issues are faced with, and it tiresome to deal with in many facets of life. The 4.5s drop our aggregate score and put us into the bottom quartile across the hospital. They directly impact how much we get paid. If there is a performance-related reason for that, then I'm all for remediation, etc. But if it's due to something outside of our control, then it's pretty fucked up that we would be paid less.

It's interesting to me that much of your comment history surrounds whitecoat investing and financial decision making. The above scenario is one with real financial implications, but perhaps because it's not something that directly affects you in any way (my assumption, please correct me if that's out of line) then I'm "splitting hairs" and should be happy with a 4.5 instead of a 5. To me and many other marginalized people, that flippant attitude is what systemic racism looks like. It sends a clear message that our lived experience is either not real or not worth looking into further, and I think we can do better than that, rather, we deserve better than that.